[Closed] "Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

So some beautiful thoughts out there. Would stw like to try and explain inflation and how much more their houses cost these days.
I bought my first full sus in 04,as I recall at that point spec and giant were knocking out a Base spec full sus for 1k to 1500. All brand new and with a warranty. The equivalent bike now is better specced, lighter and probably more reliable.
Even in this thread when I quoted a range people pick the high figure to make their point.
I don't feel gullible, I research what I buy, I make value judgements on both the function and life of a product. I am free to choose a big range 11sp,or a cheap steel 9sp.
Get over your multiple Yorkshire man mentality and accept that other people can have what they want.

But on a serious note at a time when 1x11 is without direct competition (get your act together Shimano!) bringing out a significantly cheaper option can't be a bad thing surely? Xx1 cassette RRP over £300 sells for significantly less so a new cassette with rrp £115 will probably be on CRC for about £60-70 before long.

Rusty Spanner - Member
I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.

If you're happy being an impoverished eccentric, and these products don't inspire you, and you don't aspire to own then, then you could, you know, not buy them?

Cheaper 11 speed stuff cna only be good. And if 11 speed doesn't appeal, then what difference does it make to you?

[quote=nickjb ]It's one extra cog for £70. Makes that surly look very cheap.

£70 for the extra apple you get compared to the orange you'd get instead?

[quote=jambalaya ]Massive marketing success, a whole thread about an SRAM product, one which most of us wouldn't dream of buying. companies often carry a top end product whuch is designed to showcase their technology, (think cars) perhaps this is priced to reflect the low production run / sales they expect.

If we were discussing XX1 you might have a point. Once this ends up at the discounters (which will be by the time any of us needs a new one if we get a new bike with this on now) it will be at a pricepoint which will be quite affordable for most of us. This is actually widerange 1x11 for the masses finally.

I still suspect a double would suit my riding better, but this has me reaching for the gear calculators...

Clever business model. Throw stock at manufacturers dirt cheap, then charge the consumer a fortune for replacements (£100-odd for a ****ing chainring?!?!?)
Looks nice though.

Think how much extra material you are getting in that cassette compared to one snotty bit fashioned in to a rear mech hanger at least £20 🙄

There is a real undertone of inverse snobbery here. Like you have to be some rich golf playing dentist to buy this stuff.

'We don't want people with money liking our sport, it's for poor folk'

What it said was new [richer] folk have joined the sport and will pay silly prices for bits. Its much harder to argue against this "raphaisation" of the sport.

Inverse snobbery is just a lame insult - articulate your point of view without this please.

* you can literally buy a bike for that.

The product itself looks good to me (but not impressive engineering) , the cassette is a bit on the heavy side, but you cant have it all.

I'm currently using a one up 42 tooth with a shimano xt cassette, slx mech and XT shifters, and its works brilliantly, absolutely no complaints.

Give it another 12 months and I reckon I'll have switched to an 11 speed system of some sort, probably a combination of sram cassette paired with shimano mech and shifters.

[quote=Junkyard ]* you can literally buy a [s]bike[/s] BSO for that.

Fixed

I think you're confusing "engineering" with "manufacturing". It wouldn't take long to knock up a model of the cassette in CAD and find someone to make one for you.

Nope engineering is manufacturing.
What you're describing is doodling on the screen aka designing. And you won't be able to find someone who can knock up a working cassette using that pin construction from a cad drawing.

I thinks you mean that manufacturing is engineering. There is plenty of engineering that's unrelated to manufacturing.

All it would take us for shimano to make an 11 speed 11-46 to get the spread. Would fit a standard freehub and they'd have the whole thing wrapped up in a pretty little bow.

I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

I think anyone still running 3x9 is an impoverished eccentric 😆

Whats wrong with the Rapha guys?

Is not for me, but they are actually spending money and supporting the industry.

its seems like if you are not riding a battered old One One in Aldi clothes you are not welcome here.

Exactly the kind of attitude you would assume from the carbon road bike riding Rapha guys.

I grew up in a house where there was so much stigma about being proud of having naff all. Poor and proud. 'Stop being so flash with your bloody mobile phone'

It's easier to hold others back than aspire to greater things yourself.

Good old bike industry pricing

Calculate cost price, pick a random multiple and multiply the two together to get your mid point trade price, now double it again to get retail...

Nope engineering is manufacturing.

Manufacturing is a branch of engineering of course, but the proposition that I was responding to was that because you can't manufacture the parts in your garage then the engineering must be impressive - that's not so. I engineer lots of parts that I couldn't make myself, it doesn't mean they are always 'impressive'.

What you're describing is doodling on the screen aka designing. And you won't be able to find someone who can knock up a working cassette using that pin construction from a cad drawing.

I work with manufacturers day in day out that could easily produce that cassette from a set of engineering drawings. Producing them in volume at a marketable price is the tricky part.

Good old bike industry pricing

Calculate cost price, pick a random multiple and multiply the two together to get your mid point trade price, now double it again to get retail..

Yep that's why the bike industry is awash with multi millionaires.

I thinks there missing a trick with it only being xd driver thou 🙁

tbh it's not a rocket science product the issue is bringing the manufacturing cost down to allow it to be sold cheaper..
(Or the appearence of this as they want a product line they can position at a few price points...probably priced so with a little discount pushes the extender cogs out the market )

I think they're pushing the rear widths up anyway so no doubt next years amazing product will be 1x12

I'm quite disappointed the manufacturers have not all conspired to come up with a completely new standard that renders everything prior too it completely obsolete.

By the bike industries recent standards, they're slacking!

Impressive engineering would be if they had found a way to totally enclose the gear mechanism, run it in an oil bath so it didn't wear out quickly, and mount it where it would not be damaged by passing rocks or protruding sticks, or get clagged up in a bit of mud and then go through the spokes.

Still it's suitable for riders who only ride a small distance infrequently on maintained paths, or racers who don't mind expensive disposable parts.

If only someone made such a device as I have described. Could call it something like Rohloff or Alfine. 🙂

Or even that weird fluid hub thing 🙂 lots of good innovation but it always goes very niche.

I did like the mid hub gearbox thangs thou

Junkyard » * you can literally buy a bike BSO for that.
Fixed

Guilty as charged....Fair point

Whats wrong with the Rapha guys?

Is not for me, but they are actually spending money and supporting the industry.

They are not a charitable organisation they have a business model designed to make money just like on one and Aldi

its seems like if you are not riding a battered old One One in Aldi clothes you are not welcome here.

I am sure there is a forum somewhere that speaks only in straw man attacks. No one has said this but you

that's why the bike industry is awash with multi millionaires.

I am sure the owners of Shimano, On one, Merlin, CRC , Gian, Specialized etc are millionaires so i dont get this point. I bet even Superstars owner is one by now.

Still a massive lol at paying loads more for less range.

...a £1000-1500 entry level bike...

Ah, the old multiply by three rule. Like it.

[quote=irelanst ]Producing them in volume at a marketable price is the tricky part.

Which is a very important part of engineering. Not necessarily something most people realise - they think designing (or fixing the plumbing 🙄 ) is engineering.

The way it is put together is quite impressive - plausibly there is a significant cost reduction compared to X1 (though I still think it's mostly marketing).

My biggest issue is the 394g - I'm not spending above 100 quid on a cassette that heavy, I'll keep replacing my xx1/x01 with like for like thanks

[quote=Junkyard ]I am sure there is a forum somewhere that speaks only in straw man attacks.

Damn, did I miss one?

Is this too late?

[quote=jmatlock ]its seems like if you are not riding a battered old One One in Aldi clothes you are not welcome here.

[img] [/img]

I think it looks bloody great, I can't be be doing with expander cogs etc so I'm running 30Tx11-36Txmtfu on my Krampus, at that pricing (-30% for CRC/Merlin/etc) the next time I have drive train reshuffle I'll invest unless Shimano come out with something better in the meantime.

My first MTB was a 94 Kona Hahana that was £425 quid.

Reality check:

£[b]425[/b] in '[b]94[/b] is £[b]773.59[/b] today.

[quote=Rusty Spanner]I much preferred cycling when it was the sole domain of the impoverished eccentric.

Knowing that your target demographic was as skint as a church mouse was wonderful at curbing the excesses of the manufacturers.

I do rather wish some recent converts would piss off back to the golf club and take their 'inspirational and aspirational' pricing with them.

[quote=mikewsmith]Get over your multiple Yorkshire man mentality and accept that other people can have what they want.

What is really funny is you'd NEVER get this kind of discussion on an American forum. They'll critique the engineering, yes the cost, but it will never come down to this kind of implied classisim we are still mired in in the UK. In the USA, doing well for yourself is celebrated. Aspiring is good. In the UK, you had better know your place, anyone who does well for themselves and aspires to better things is to be put down. It is ultimately a sad, dour, ground-in jealousy.

[quote=dirtyrider]My biggest issue is the 394g - I'm not spending above 100 quid on a cassette that heavy, I'll keep replacing my xx1/x01 with like for like thanks

I agree, it is a boat anchor. I'll stick to my £40 XT 10 speed 330 gram cassette for now.

Considering the use and enjoyment I get from my bikes I'm happy to spend reasonable money on it.

It's the pricing to this buyer that annoys me - what about what the product costs? See B&Q stocking 50 screws for £2 instead of being able to buy what ever quantity you want etc.

chakaping - Member

I got my first "proper" MTB in 1986. A Dawes tracker.
It was an entry level £237...

That price equates to about £640 now, for which you can buy a vastly superior bike to your old Dawes.

It will have more features yes, quality will be poorer and it will weigh a ton.

jmatlock - Member

Whats wrong with the Rapha guys?

Is not for me, but they are actually spending money and supporting the industry.

Most of it sold direct online, no? So not supporting retailers at all.

It's the pricing to this buyer that annoys me - what about what the product costs? See B&Q stocking 50 screws for £2 instead of being able to buy what ever quantity you want etc.

Most of it sold direct online, no? So not supporting retailers at all.

It's called capitalism.

Who cares 'supporting retailers'? Buy stuff, the people making and supplying it make money, and hopefully make and supply more stuff. Brick-n-mortar is not any more or less worthy that any other supply method.

Maths check:

£773.59 is less than £1,000 and also £1,500.

I don't think it's jealousy, well not in all cases. Some people remember that you don't need an expensive bike to ride up and down hills, and the amount you spend isn't really related to the size of the grin you get in return.

It looks a bit slim. Is it rated for tandem use?

7hz nailed it.

It's ok to have nice stuff. And to aspire to nice stuff and appriciate it.

This place seems to want to belittle people who don't bodge stuff and buy the cheapest possible solution.

Maths check:

£773.59 is less than £1,000 and also £1,500.

No shit Einstein!

The point is, £773.59 for a rigid steel bike with rim brakes, quill stem etc, vs £1,000 for an aluminium hardtail with disc brakes etc etc.

I don't think it's jealousy, well not in all cases. Some people remember that you don't need an expensive bike to ride up and down hills, and the amount you spend isn't really related to the size of the grin you get in return.

Right, but the sum total of no one implied that you need this cassette to 'ride up and down hills'. No one is being forced to spend money on bikes. If you are so inclined, you can get a £10 beater in the local ads, give it some TLC, and ride it about. That is fine. But there is no need to sneer at other people who enjoy spending more of their hard earned on shiny new bits.

Was quite surprised to be called out on my assertion that £115 was beyond what I'd comfortably pay for a cassette and to be told that I was really comparing apples with oranges by daring to suggest that I'd be happier with and XT cassette and an expander cog.

AFAIK, at the top end, I gain the advantage of 10T as opposed to 11T with Shimano. Will I really, really notice that?

Sorry, still out here. You guys go on and fill your boots, I've no issue with anyone else spending whatever they like on a cassette. I can see why anyone with 1x11 shipped on a new bike might be excited but I'm sure that we can agree to disagree.

[quote=jmatlock ]This place seems to want to belittle people who don't bodge stuff and buy the cheapest possible solution.

I bodge expensive stuff. Does that mean everybody is sneering at me?

No, that makes you a winner.

I love seeing people not only spend a chunk of cash on something but actually use it. Play with it. take it a part.

Life is too short to keep anything for best.

Several key things:

- Do you want it, can you afford it? If yes, buy it. If no, don't.
- Are you being forced to buy this? No.
- Do some people like having nice stuff that they have worked hard to buy? Yes.
- Should they be allowed to, even if it doesn't appeal to you? Yes.
- Are the lizard rulers of the earth controlling the bike industry and forcing this on you? No.

Interested to know how many of the vocal minority criticizing on here have actually tried GX to make an informed decision about the effectiveness of the product before judging.

I switched to X01 18 months ago. It was a game changer for me. A cheaper, more accessible version has to be a positive.

The grumpy ones on here should probably go for a ride with some mates to cheer up a bit.

It will have more features yes, quality will be poorer and it will weigh a ton.

Did you have a low end MTB in the 1980s?

Mine all weighed easily as much as modern equivalents and were constantly needing attention. Like during every ride, several times.

I don't expect you to admit you're wrong though.

so this is the 4th from top level group? touted as being kind of SLX level?
and it's still priced half way between XT and XTR.
and people talk about Shimano not having anything to compete?

glad it's got both a 1x and 2x option. maybe Shimano was right there in giving multiple options for the front end (that everyone on here said was pointless, because it's deeply not fashionable right now) ?

Thought I might have been defecting to SRAM, but not at that price. Although RRP and actual retail may differ. 2x10/2x11 XT for me tyvm.

either that or the EU prices mtb-new list on their article are wrong.

and people talk about Shimano not having anything to compete?

Not sure why 2x11 is that much of a good thing, 2x10 gives you a great range. 1x11 SRAM gives you the best 1x range. Shimano offers you only XTR prices for something you can do with a Hope T-rex etc.

and it's still priced half way between XT and XTR.

Well i'll split the difference and buy the Praxis works cassette that is due out which goes up to 40t, not bothered about having a 10t top cog for the limited times it would get used and at circa £80 is on a par with a XT cassette plus range extender anyway plus it will fit my current wheels with no mods or extra freehub purchases required.

Just out of interest, I didn't have a go at, or sneer at, the character of any cyclist.

This is a purely selfish point of view.

I like nice bikes - don't we all?
But the emergence of a more affluent consumer has given the manufacturers an opportunity to take a cynical approach to profit making.
I think that this, combined with the forced introduction of kitten-killers has made people question their relationship with the industry and media.

And the media is the public face of MTB to those with a wish to get involved, but little knowledge of how much it should cost.
They help to define us.

The demographic has changed to such an extent that £2000 is now regularly quoted by the media as entry level.

This shift alters peoples expectations of how much they need to spend to get into this.
Not just buy a bike, but to feel part of that nebulous 'community' that the magazines constantly tell us they represent.

And although complete bikes are good value, the price of spares and the tedious regularity of questionable new standards make things less attractive and more expensive for the financially pushed newbie.

The unquestioning acceptance of the new, the willingness to ignore all expectation of value in that first rush of love is inevitable when you get a large number of newcomers with money to any activity.

I like the fact that more people than ever are cycling.
Cycling's nice.

Doesn't mean I have to like the compromises that come with it.

I am sure the owners of Shimano, On one, Merlin, CRC , Gian, Specialized etc are millionaires so i dont get this point. I bet even Superstars owner is one by now.

As for Superstar owners being millionaires, I can only assuming you are taking the piss, if not then it shows just how out of touch some folk are with the profits being made in the industry.