[Closed] Some things I just don't get...

People do what they want with their own money. Wasting in some eyes, fine in theirs.

why not you might be [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/scared-of-death ]dead[/url] tomorrow

I find that cheap forks don't allow me to enjoy my food.

Also, with an £800 fork you never accidentally touch your filling while eating.

can you even buy a decent DH fork (at RRP) for less than £800 these days?

BOS Idylle RaRe is about £1800

Boxxer World Cup, £1500ish

Why limit it to DH forks? To get any decent 2011 fork at rrp you won't have much change from a grand.

*And by decent I mean...a fork that would've been £400-500 a few years ago and would've made you think "oooh that's a nice fork"

Last year's factory race kit is this year's trail kit.
The trickle down effect has escalated over the last 10 years, so the prices have increased in line with the performance.
I don't see a problem with that.

The good thing is, older stuff still works the same way it used to, and you can buy it for bog all these days.
Horses for courses innit!

Skyline-GTR - Member

Last year's factory race kit is this year's trail kit.

Except, it's not.

Skyline-GTR - Member

so the prices have increased in line with the performance.

lol, very funny.

Skyline-GTR
I don't see a problem with that.

You don't see a problem with skyrocketing prices?

Skyline-GTR

The good thing is, older stuff still works the same way it used to, and you can buy it for bog all these days.
Horses for courses innit!

Aha, so where are fork manufactures hiding these old forks in their current range!?

The Rockshox blackbox damper was race only kit last year, now it's in the mainstream in several forks. Fox forks now have Kashima stanchions and FIT damper carts which were race only last year.
And if you buy OE stock online you can make signifigant savings over current stock running the same tech as last year's aftermarket products from most of the major manufacturers.
Everything is going up in price due to tax and shipping cost increases, so you have to accept them as a fact of life these days.

U just got owned mofo! wanna quit while you're behind?

I don't get why Prince Alberts are called that?

To me he was a royal squire and a gold statue on the commute.

Then I worked at telly centre and was informed that Evan 'Tinsel Tits'Davis had a Prince Albert. Since getting into MTB I dont get why a hardcore hardtail would be called that?

Maybe I am naive?

Comment about Prince Albert's now deleted as it may cause offence to the sensitive:D

Skyline-GTR

U just got owned mofo! wanna quit while you're behind?

That's pretty manly talk there, but it seems you just swallowed some marketing mans verbal diarrhea. So Fox forks now have kashima coating, just like race teams had, well that's wonderful but I don't see that as a wondrous new thing or valid reason for a price increase, more Fox finally addressing the serious problem they had with stanchion wear on their hugely expensive forks.

The Rockshox blackbox damper was race only kit last year, now it's in the mainstream in several forks.

Sorry, is that supposed to blow peoples skirts up? - in your initial post you said that prices have increased in line with performance, I don't see that. So Rockshox have tweaked their damper and called it Blackbox so it sounds all factory, oooooh please take my money, take it all!!

Companies like Fox and Rockshox are taking the piss with their prices tbh. In 2005 you could buy a Fox 36 with rebound, and high and low speed compression. Has the 2011 (kashima coated obviously) Fox 36 really changed that much? If you took the pepsi challenge on old vs new would the difference be so startling? Doubt it.

Everything is going up in price due to tax and shipping cost increases, so you have to accept them as a fact of life these days.

Thought you'd throw that in to bolster your argument since you neglected to mention it earlier?

Fork manufacturers sticking the arm in, that seems like a fact of life. Six years ago if I wanted a 42" tv I could buy a massive rear projection one or pay thousands for a flat screen, now you can pick up a HD LCD for £500, while same time we get the same old tat with new stickers and we pay through the nose with an annual price hikes for companies to address their design flaws and call it progression.

Yes, economies of scale play a big part in that equation but we, the consumer are really getting shafted/hammered at the minute by stupid bike and component prices right across the board.

The Rockshox blackbox damper was race only kit last year,

I got some RS SID black box for Xmas 09.

you could argue the same for cars, clothes, computers, phones etc. i ordered a cane creek double barrel shock for my bike last night even tho my Fox RP23 does the job just fine. why? because i want to and can.

Loddrik how much was your bike? Cos I can pretty much guarantee someone out there would say it's a shocking amount to spend on a bike, he must be made of money etc etc

Current RRPs are nuts though, glad I got my 36s when I did for a bargain price 🙂

skyline your argument is flawed as trickling down technology means little or no price increase, as the component/technology has been developed, and can now be massed produced with economies of scale. Look at motorcycles with for example slipper clutches and more sophisticated suspension developed in racing, the only price increases there are due to the cost of raw materials and the £/Y conversion rate.

£800 for forks = only slightly more than a couple of quid a day for a year, nothing really 😆

If people want to spend their wedge on something, then let them.

If they get sucked into the marketing BS about increased performance, then I pity them.

Quite a bit has to do with willy waving unfortunately.

My mk1 '99 Monsters do just as good a job as the 2011 Boxxers IMHO.

Why limit it to DH forks? To get any decent 2011 fork at rrp you won't have much change from a grand.
*And by decent I mean...a fork that would've been £400-500 a few years ago and would've made you think "oooh that's a nice fork"

Don't pay RRP then!!!!

No you don't have to spend a grand. Just be careful what you buy and take your time. I've got a new carbon 456 with 2011 Revelations on it (which are a huge improvement over any air fork I've ever used) and I only paid £715 for frame and forks, both brand new.
On my Pitch I've got coil Lyriks worth about £750, which I refuse to pay. But there's plenty of used ones around so I paid £300, and after a bit of buying and selling Arfur Daley style, their actual cost to me was £30.
I like nice kit. But I simply refuse to spend silly money on it, so I'm careful where and when I splash my cash.

It can be done if you open your eyes and keep your nose to the ground! 🙂

would that be the same kind of willy waving as someone who's wearing, say a £200 watch (which isn't that excessive) compared to someone wearing a £10 casio watch which works perfectly fine?

xiphon

My mk1 '99 Monsters do just as good a job as the 2011 Boxxers IMHO.

I completely forgot about Marzocchi who are actually trumpeting about the fact that they've regressed their technology. 1999 technology 2011 prices Whooohooo!! (but hey it's got titanium so it's worth it).

jimjam - Member
Yes, economies of scale play a big part in that equation but we, the consumer are really getting shafted/hammered at the minute by stupid bike and component prices right across the board.

I agree. But this is not some unique business model. Some truth lies in the fact that the cycling industry is one of a few markets that is rapidly expanding, a fact which is not lost on the marketing departments of every manufacturing or service company in the industry. Prices will increase to what the business perceives the market can bear.

In plain language, when the growth stops or starts to shrink, the prices will drop.

I too feel fed up with price hikes out of proportion to energy / currency increases = bike industy takes the piss - look at lubes / shock oils / bearings for example - put a 'bike' label on it and its suddenly a lot dearer.

I need a new damper for my forks cos the old one was crap/failed - 100 plus for mostly plastic parts = 'brilliant value'. What would 100 quid buy you say in electronics...

If people are stupid to buy into the whole new tech scene then let them - makes 2nd hand parts seem almost good value.

I am burning through a lot of parts and it costs me a lot if not all my disposable cash. I am a rare beast in as much I do a lot of xc trail miles week after week.

oh well. gripe over

It does feel like bike industry is taking the piss, I've been riding a long time and I used to be able to afford XT drivechain, forks a step or two down from the flagship model, you know, not top of the range stuff but pretty good. Now adays everything is looking damned expensive and there's no way I'd be able to afford rrp, I'm having to do a [b]lot[/b] of shopping around these days, even classified which I never bothered with before.

So does everyone sell sub-rrp so rrps are high to enable discounts or do plenty of people actually pay those prices?

alternativley is it that now wadded bling merchants are into mountain biking (or atleast into posing with their bikes) the bike manufacturers can spend ridiculous sums on R&D and make seriously costly (to produce) chi chi stuff? Stuff is getting better year on year yes but are they really 200% better? (or whatever the price increase is)

The Rockshox blackbox damper was race only kit last year, now it's in the mainstream in several forks. Fox forks now have Kashima stanchions and FIT damper carts which were race only last year.

As Kingtut said, you're wrong on both counts really! Fox forks had FIT dampers last year at least, and BlackBox MoCo has been in SIDs for quite a while.

A 2009 SID Team with BlackBox MoCo retailed for £450, SID RLTs (to all intents and purposes exactly the same fork) are now over £700.

SID World Cups are over £1000.

I've got a new carbon 456 with 2011 Revelations on it (which are a huge improvement over any air fork I've ever used) and I only paid £715 for frame and forks, both brand new.

Ah yes but not everyone is [i]amazing at everything[/i] like you Peter. 😛

It does feel like bike industry is taking the piss, I've been riding a long time and I used to be able to afford XT drivechain, forks a step or two down from the flagship model, you know, not top of the range stuff but pretty good.

I believe the industry argument would probably be that the 'lower end' stuff now like Deore or SLX is pretty much as good as XT used to be.

Smoke and Mirrors.... The Illusion of Choice

Maybe its the massive increase in "standards" thats puished prices up? I'm compltely lost with headsets, steereres, bottom brackets, damping options, axle size, 9/10 speed groupset compaibility now. I've no idea how a beginner would cope.

Theres an SRAM video explaing the Revelation and its 2 minutes of him holding the fork and explaining the million different options for just ONE fork. WTF? who are they aiming this stuff at? no wonder it costs so much to make.

I can barely use chainreaction anymore because theres way too much stuff to sift through. 500 different MTB tyres? is that really necessary?

I believe the industry argument would probably be that the 'lower end' stuff now like Deore or SLX is pretty much as good as XT used to be.

my analogy is flawed but I'm sure you get my point.

Maybe its the massive increase in "standards" thats puished prices up?

but maybe I'm just an embittered old tightwad.

Maybe its the massive increase in "standards" thats puished prices up?
Nah I'm going for more people with lots of cash to burn on an ego chariot getting into mtb.

would that be the same kind of willy waving as someone who's wearing, say a £200 watch (which isn't that excessive) compared to someone wearing a £10 casio watch which works perfectly fine?

Ah, the chips are out. Some people earn more than others, some people have more talent than others, some people are better looking than other - fact of life so get over it.

The pricier kit is usually better than cheaper kit. If someone wants the expensive stuff because of perceived advantages, they can afford it, and they like owning nice kit, then good luck to them. If anyone buys nice kit simply to show off how much money they've got, then they are almost certainly *************s. Fill in whatever expletive is appropriate

i'm from the mould that if it works and does what you want it to do, it doesn't matter if it costs £10 maybe it's an up north thing I would go for it , rather than buying a shiny one which will prob break and cost £1000

Isn't it basic consumerism to have stuff with slightly better features costing vastly more?

Cars are all basically the same but you get to pay more due to the badge and sold perceived quality when wether that increase is actually worth it, probably not unless it is for the status. Take a Ford basic model to a BMW high model. Someone influenced entirely by price and the functionality they actually need would always buy the cheap Ford. But people are stupid/complicated/sheep so they are willing to pay a lot more for perceived value.

I am in the cheap skate class though driving a cheap secondhand car and a bike mostly made out of second hand parts. The said second hand parts could have been cheaper though so I fall into the stupid call as well.

I just bought a 2nd hand Prophet on eBay, nice and cheap, and it's immense. That is all.

I wear a bin bag instead of a jacket and brush my teeth with twigs. All these fancy dans with their goretex and colgate are just massaging their egos, what a bunch of twunts.

Ah, the chips are out.

Someone may be along in a minute with graphs and charts to say inflation, blah, cost of living, blah, materials, transport, XT now costs the same as xt 5 yrs ago....but it doesn't seem that way.

It always pays to shop around (as we know). The classifieds have provided me with 2011 fox float 36s, joplin 4, XTR etc at a fraction of the RRP all very nearly new. Even my frame was brand new "clearance". I'm just patient and flexible with what I want/buy. Of my whole bike, I think the only thing I paid full RRP for was the saddle.
Not showing off, just demonstrating that if you are happy to wait and look around there are deals out there!

Ah yes but not everyone is amazing at everything like you Peter.

Cheers! 😉

It's not hard though. Just don't buy £800 forks, basically. There's loads of stuff half that price and less that's brilliant for 99% of riders. If you like expensive shiny stuff with all the bells and whistles, expect to pay top dollar for it, there's no problem or surprise there. But do you really need special stanchion coating, more adjustment and is 200g less weight REALLY going to make a difference? Nope. Not really.

(Note - Forgot to mention that the £715 also includes a free headset, seatpost and DT Swiss 240 front hub.... 🙂 )

Over the last 18 months I've picked up two pairs of Magura Phaons for £55 each. Seem very well built and work much better than acceptably well for any of the riding I'm ever likely to do. Can't see myself needing anything any more expensive until they can't be serviced any more...

If people bought a single fork instead of pairs and sets, maybe it would be cheaper.

i use a spork, cut my cultery bills down by a 3rd instantly!

Munqe-chick - Member

skyline your argument is flawed as trickling down technology means little or no price increase.

No, it doesn't, trickle-down has no bearing on cost at all, just availability.

jimjam - Member

in your initial post you said that prices have increased in line with performance, I don't see that. So Rockshox have tweaked their damper and called it Blackbox so it sounds all factory, oooooh please take my money, take it all!!

Motion control to blackbox is a pretty big difference performance wise. And it's not the only change- look at today's Revelation vs 2007's, as well as the improved damping you can get a 150mm fork with a maxle in it that's lighter than the 2007 130mm fork with a quick release in it.

Mind you I only paid £300 for my Teams so no wonder I'm not complaining about prices 😉

northwind, if it's unaffordable it's unavailable so surely your differentiation is theoretical? Going back to my motorbike argument, most "sports" bikes have slipper clutches now, and cost no more because of it. Ducati put high tech parts on their bikes (rider-adjustable traction control for instance) but I dont count that as "trickle down" when the bike it appears on cost £15,000+. And putting it on three different £15000 bikes makes it more "available". When the same feature appears on a £7K mass market bike, [i]that[/i] (to me at least) is trickle down. Surely thats the point of using the word "down", as it is finding its way down the market/price structure. At least thats my laymans take on it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_effect

If your higher performing 2011 Revelation cost the same as the 2007 Rev then surely that is trickle-down, but if it costs substantially more then it isnt.

The cost of forks especially seems to have skyrocketed over the years. I bought (expensive at the time) Pace RC39 for £400 - they lasted a few years, but then the DT Swiss equivalent was over £700 for basically the same fork. Fox are the same, and Rockshox too. The people setting the price points (manufacturers or importers) are charging what they know people will pay, but I do believe that many (including me) are now lowering their sights to good 2nd had parts (bought a pair of 2 year old, but unmarked Fox F100's for less than £200 off here - they're over £500 new!) For me it's easy: if enough people stop buying new, prices will have to come down (or 2nd hand prices go up, which I hope won't happen).

TBH I have only ever bought one set of forks new, and they were half price in the sale. If prices keep going up like they do, more and more people are just going to buy second hand, which will surely hurt sales figures of new forks..

For me it's easy: if enough people stop buying new, prices will have to come down (or 2nd hand prices go up, which I hope won't happen).

not sure why second hand forks would be on the Market in the first place though, unless people were buying new ones? 😕

[b]Motion control to blackbox is a pretty big difference performance wise.[/b] And it's not the only change- look at today's Revelation vs 2007's, as well as the improved damping you can get a 150mm fork with a maxle in it that's lighter than the 2007 130mm fork with a quick release in it.

Mind you I only paid £300 for my Teams so no wonder I'm not complaining about prices

Congratulations, you've been sucked in by the marketing department. Perfect example.

The reality is, "motion control to blackbox" makes f-ck all difference, 99.999% of the time.

But the marketing departments don't want you to think that 😉

For the record, I have: 1st gen Fox 36s TALAS (2006 - brown ones) - £100 posted; mk1 Monsters (1999) - £80 posted, and 200x (can't remember year - around 04/05?) Marzocchi AM's - £60 posted.

£10 says they work just as well as your £1000 forks 😉

loddrik - Member
TBH I have only ever bought one set of forks new, and they were half price in the sale. If prices keep going up like they do, more and more people are just going to buy second hand, which will surely hurt sales figures of new forks..
POSTED 11 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

again. I can't see how this situation would be sustainable. Where's all the second hand forks coming from if we all stopped buying new ones?

Munqe-chick, more expensive isn't the same as unaffordable. Clearly £750 forks aren't unaffordable, loads of people buy them instead of Suntour XCRs for £60.

xiphon - Member

Congratulations, you've been sucked in by the marketing department. Perfect example.

The reality is, "motion control to blackbox" makes f-ck all difference, 99.999% of the time.

For a long time I was running a BB fork on one bike and a moco on the other, the difference is pretty unmissable as soon as the fork starts working for its living. I'm sure some people can't tell the difference, then again, some people can't tell when they've got a flat tyre either.