... XC champs at Inners today. Great course and some great racing. Some of the people racing cant ride techy stuff worth shit though. Elite level XC riders should not really be walking down/mincing down relatively easy descents. Congratulations to the winners and hopefully those that broke themselves heal quickly.
We need to have courses that suit the type of riding normal riders do.
Round here that is the type of riding normal riders do....
Can't say i fancy 39 steps or Matador on a xc race bike, but then i'm not an Elite rider. Spectating would have been fun in a slightly ghoulish way.
It didn't go near 39 steps and it was an easy section of matador.
Did you beat them all then?
No thought not.
No, but I did give them loads of encouragement and help if they needed it.
Interesting; I would expect the selection process to get to that level would involve weeding out the less talented, instead of relying just on cardio fitness.
No, but I did give them loads of encouragement and help if they needed it.
Until you got home, then slaughtered them on the internet.
Trailmonkey - I simply tell it like it is.
No excuse for walking. They should've been slaughtered whilst out on the trail as well as on the internet. I know i would've been shouting at them to get back on the bike.
That's what XC race courses are like in Scotland- they depend on rider skill, not just fitness.
It's usually a disappointment racing in England (Sherwood Pines, Mountain Mayhem and SITS anyone?) but Dalby's always a great place to race.
If walking a section is both quicker and means you don't crash and injure yourself, then walking the section will mean that you have more chance of winning.
Funny thing is, competitive racing is about winning, not about showing off your mad skillz, dood.
Also, why do some racers get off and run up a hill they [i]could[/i] ride up? Because it would be quicker and use less energy, therefore giving them more chance to win. After all, that is what it's all about....
Never have i seen a trail where walking down is quicker. They are elite [b]RIDERS[/b] afterall 😉
You'll notice how the best elite riders are amazingly fast downhill, Julien Absalon is positively scary fast downhill.
Frischi's DH skills are mental.
Not sure if anyone's seen Andy Barlow descend either- the boy's incredible.
And if Julien Absalon had started the thread it'd be a fair argument.
😉
a young lad in know named luke is pretty nippy downhill................................and races xc too............................... 😉
george, humility is a wonderfull quality................ 😉
Would you walk down this?
[img] 
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that x looks gnarly
if i had forgotten my bike then yes
and yes if Ton was in front as no way round him on that narrow trail 😉
No but on the same note I couldn't keep up with an elite CX rider on a long fireroad climb.
If you think you're faster overall get out there and prove it.
i would slide down on my bum............. 😆
but if it was steep, i would probably walk down..
Ton- I've been known to walk!
[IMG] 
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SSSTU - nowhere did I claim to be faster overall. But if you get to Elite you should be able to ride what is in that picture with ease.
OK you got me I almost started to argue with the zoo fighter.
hijack...............luke you heared owt from nick??????????
Aye, he's over on Mleh at the minute. A bit busy of late I think. You after going riding with him?
rolfharris = did you leave the wheels at home but still wanted to take part? 🙂
luke, yes mate.
ask him to bell me....
I wasn't there, so I'm not going to get into this course, all I know is what I've heard from the people I've spoken to, but why do you Scots seem to think a good XC course is a long dull climb, followed by a crazy descent?
I'm happy for courses to be more technical, it's not particularly what I like, but I don't see a problem with a variety of courses. But from what I've heard of this course, and my experience of the 2007 BUSA champs at Dunkeld they're just rubbish courses! Make them technical yes ok, to prove how manly you guys are or whatever, but why not have lots of little ups and downs, or make the climbs interesting or something!?
Elite level XC riders should not really be walking down/mincing down relatively easy descents.
and
...and hopefully those that broke themselves heal quickly.
Is it just my weird sense of humour or is there a certain irony putting those two sentances in the same paragraph? 😉
Njee- rollocks.
Aberfoyle SXC had a real beggar of a techy climb, as did the SSUKs and SXCs at Drumlanrig. Relentless had some really mean climbs. It's actually pleasant to have a climb at a race rather than a flat drag. Real world rides tend to have long climbs then tough descents, not short ups and downs that don't test stamina or endurance.
why do you Scots seem to think a good XC course is a long dull climb, followed by a crazy descent?
GIRL!
Seriously though what's wrong with it? Climb allows fitness to shine & folk to pass, descent demands technical skills (and recover for good riders).
It's great to see folk walking at xc races, it means it's techie enough.
Oh and it is "MOUNTAIN BIKING"!!!
on the same token thought nick ....we cant have em flat - like a dirt crit
everytime ive been in engerland doing racing (admittedly probably as often as you been up here )its been on something better suited to a cross bike .....
All the elite XC riders I've ever seen at events are absolutely fantastic at descending. Proper balls out over seriously techy stuff, they ride bikes offroad, ALL THE TIME. Mid level I know a few guys who are great but IME, this is where the poor descenders reside. Guys with a road biking background who can typically do well in amateur races because they're so fit, but bottle it at the first dip in the track.
Frischi's DH skills are mental.Not sure if anyone's seen Andy Barlow descend either- the boy's incredible.
Me n mr barlow used to ride for the same team when raced juniors. Still see him now and again. He is quick tho, i'll give him that
well said lukey i agree - todays ride for me was 1 big climb - 1 excellent downhill - 1 big climb and 1 excellent descent - but i guess in scotland we have big enough hills for rides like that 😉
Dirt Crit you say... Sounds like some of the events they had at Sherwood Pines when I used to live down that way. No skill needed whatsoever, just the ability to hurt for a couple of hours. Thetford is the same. For my money that isn't mountain bike racing.
we cant have em flat - like a dirt crit
No, no, I totally agree, definitely don't want flat courses, although I don't see the problem with having one flat course in a series, mixes things up a bit. What I don't like is having a long dull climb, followed by a single descent. Why not have lots of climbs, like Dalby or Drumlanrig does, it's much much much more interesting!
Anyway the race yesterday didn't have an 'Elite' race per se, it had an Over 23 and an Under 23, which are amalgamations of Expert and Elite, many Experts can't ride bikes for shit, myself included! The vast majority of actual Elites are pretty handy.
not many of our courses go straight up/straight down nick.
but its the way inners is, but it was hardly a dull climb, nice bit of singeltrack, broken up here and there with a flowing middle and a descent...
less than 500m of fireroad in the entire race (the trudge round the field was terrible, but thats the only way back in, since it ran through the arena/ and the only place big enough for the start).
to compare it to something you'd know nick, the 2nd big descent at dalby (that medusa's drop was it?) that whole descent would be pretty similar to the inners tracks used, except inners (by being more in the forest) is a bit more of a loamy track, and got a bit muddy with the rain...
the busa xc track (or descent) was more technical.
despite the signs [img] 
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it was a dh track back in the day, when dh started and inners was a big scene. but if you sent the national dh race down the tracks we used, people would be pretty pissed at having such a shit track.
its fairly technical on an xc bike. but on a dh bike, it would be like us rolling down glentress blue!!
xc mtb'ing shouldn't be won by the fittest person. You should be able to show fitness, riding and climbing quickly, and show techincal ability, descending well.
[url= http://www.youtube.com/user/AndyNeep#play/uploads ]Video of us Dh'ing it somewhere in this lot[/url]
Fair enough! I think it's a case of what you're used to and what you have to work with.
We have lots of short sharp hills around here, so our courses tend to reflect that. You have bigger hills, so you are able to design courses that do just go up, then down. I've not heard as many complaints as I did of Moelfre in 2006 at least!
It just seems sometimes that any major Scottish race becomes a case of willy waving and showing how technical courses can be made so people can puff their chests out and say 'this is what we ride all the time, like it or lump it', which I think is an awkward position to take. There's also the issues of people moaning about the rarity of a Scottish NPS race, but entry numbers are always down at races north of the border.
It's difficult, you have the ability to make courses very technical, people moan, courses tend to be faster and more flowing more down south, people moan!
I frmly believe that xc mountainbike courses should have technical tests on them or else it really becomes purely a test of fitness. The challenge should be IMO sort of red grade. ( but adjusted for the level of the race) I would like to see the course laid out with a few technical bits with chicken runs where the chicken run takes 10 - 20 seconds longer. No walking down the technical bit - marshal it and have a sin bin they have to stop in if they try to walk the shorter technical bit. This would give riders with riding ability an advantage
the champs course was done by steve at i-cycles.
he's somewhat "old skool" in how he likes his tracks. 'back in the day with proper technical descents and good long climbs to sort the men from the boys'. so to speak
most of our courses are more rolling, its just the odd one your up for seems to be a straight up/down affair 😀
the only scottish races for the nps i can think of are drumlanrig, which isn't that technical. its just got more roots than people from down south seem to be used to. (its a much more rolling course surely?) and tends to be wet on the weekend of an nps...
on the flat thing, i like thetford, its a massive bmx track 😀
and agree that one like that in a series is good...
went along later to watch the DH and there were loads of kids walking about with fresh slings on. and a mate of mine coaches for scottish cycling said loads of people were crapping it because the course was so technical. shows what you take for granted when you're used to it. Notably, in the junior sections at least, Scottish riders won every category (and usually 2nd and / or 3rd too).
Not that I'm blowing the Scots' trumpets, it was after all the British champs...
oh, and had it stayed dry. the course was totally different...
scot's won everything in the morning xc race (youth/junior/juvenile. in both male and female, with usually another scot on the podium somewhere...)
I recon we'd do better with races more like rally's or enduro's.
Timed technical sections, with connecting sections and cut-off times to get between them. The inbetween bits dont have to be easy, but should be a test of fitness, so the cut-off time should be the time you'd expect 4/5ths of the field to make (i.e. over the course of a day/race you'd expect to lose a good half of the field).
Simply_oli_y is the BUSAS xc at innners the same that was used in 2005 by any chance?
If you as me the downhill bit to the 2005xc was much much more interesting than the proper DH.
Didn't find it massively technical, just technical enough to be funny. I like that because it give a chance to people like me that are not that good at going up.
as a totally irrelevant person: "this thread is worthless without pics".
Show me some pics from the race, please!
Ahhhh, Inners xc racing, takes me back. I remember during an xc race there being gridded alongside an ol'boy who had a Michelin dh tye (comp 14/24?) on the front, this is when a 1.95 was seen as hardcore for racing! "Wasthat for" I said - "oh you'll see" he replied. Oh boy he was right, as within 20ish yards they sent the whole mentally competitive masters pack straight off the fireroad and down onto a section of dh track - crash-tastic, no quarter given, elbows out, the works!
He, was Tom that used to run the Inners bikeshop (Bikeworks/ cannae mind) and yes he knew how to ride!
Crivens, and I've just remembered that this was before risers and most guys had silly wee flatbars n barends - me included.
Funny thing is I'm sure I was faster then than I am now on a 5" full-susser or is that just my rose-tinted memory.....
bikesport in innerleithen in the old church where alpine is now aviemoron. , ec , jim and co ...
woulda been a wildgripper DH back then at that width old bat wing type ? weighed as much as my bike ...
[i]Show me some pics from the race, please![/i]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/naegears/sets/72157621577266583/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/naegears/sets/72157621577266583/
not enough information! more pics please!
scot's won everything in the morning xc race
So does that prove Scots are the best mountain bikers, or that they're the best at riding on their home terrain? (Serious question).
How many Scots won last year at Crow Hill? (again, serious question!)
[i]not enough information![/i]
?
[i]more pics please![/i]
that's all my decent ones.
Nick - Dunkeld BUSA course was a piece of crap, nothing on the climb. Descent was OK though.
Inners 2005 BUSA course is never likely to be repeated, boring climb, and just too long a lap.
Scots do tend to do better on more technical courses (Dalby being a good example). When it comes to less technical stuff, we have a different name for those.....road races! It shouldn't just be cardio work on a surface that isn't tarmac. Kenta won youths at Crow Hill last year, juniors at Inners this year. Gareth had a similar finishing position in senior.
Few more photos [url= http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/mtb/article/mtb20090716--British-Championships-XC-Courseride-0 ]here![/url]
For what its worth not all the Scottish courses consist of big climbs followed by techy descents. In fact this years Scottish Champs at Fort Bill had a great mix of natural descents interspersed with several climbs over the lap. The round at Kirroughtree was also pretty undulating. Techy descents are usually a feature though!
Cheers to all the marshalls and support yesterday, enjoyed the course even though all the traffic and rain made it pretty muddy compared to the way it was in the lead up to the event.
I reckon that xc courses should be full on technical. Why not, this is supposed to be mountain biking, not cyclocross.
If riders can't ride it because they don't have the skills because they are roadies who got lost, then tough, MTFU.
If riders can't ride it on their 20lb carbon hardtails with 24" wide flat bars, then, well, they should change their bikes to something resembling a real mountain bike so they can.
Maybe more riders would get involved with it the various series then.
Mansonsoul, you can't get too tech or everyone would be better off running, and for that matter running with a cyclocross bike to make the flat bits quicker 🙂 Climbs can't be too tech or everyone just jumps off and runs up (it is a race after all) should be just tech enough so it's quicker to ride it all rather than jumpoffbike-runuphill-jumponbike
I'm with the longer slower chicken run idea (I have seen some chicken runs shorter and faster than the obstacle itself - daft), I hadn't thought about a sin bin for tech walkers tho, good idea.
Then ban running too! Bah, I'm a fascist aren't I? 🙂
[i]I reckon that xc courses should be full on technical. Why not, this is supposed to be mountain biking, not cyclocross.[/i]
An xc race is a Cross Country Race, I reckon feet, cyclo-cross bikes, bmx bikes, hell even canoes if you feel so inclined, should be allowed. In my mind it's all about who can move fastest over the given terrain.
but we aint allowed cross bikes ...... but im hearing you of if thats the fastest ride over that terrain then why not ....
if they got away with it people would justh ave a cross bike and the majority would pressure them to make courses tamer ....
Horse? I think it's a [i]mountain bike[/i]* cross country race 🙂
*definition of mountain bike is a whole other subject
Dougal, Scots do indeed fare better on technical courses, my question is whether that's down to the fact they ride them all the time. Kenta is clearly an awesome rider, he'll excel on any course, although Steve James shat on him at Sherwood!
I don't really see why people think that courses that don't have crazy technical bits are road races though, whilst none of the courses down here are that technical, we don't have rocky terrain for a start, they're hardly road races like Thetford or Sherwood.
A lot of our courses are relatively technical, it's just more tight twitchy stuff, rather than really steep rocky stuff, arguably requires as much skill to ride fast, just less about balls, which frankly is what a lot of the 'really' technical courses seem to be about!
difference of opinion nick,
i don't think any of us racing scots would call a tight/twisty track technical.
it would just be a winding/twisty track...
don't need rocks, inners showed that, not really much rock on the course...
drumlanrig a prime example of non rocky but technical.
aberfoyle didn't have much rock (on coures anyway)...
its we like to ride something interesting. and find just twisting through the tree's rather dull!
and its not just about balls, being able to move a bike about, and ride one properly is what its about!
Twisty through trees is just a way to make a dull trail more interesting IMO, and not a very good one at that.
It is indeed a difference of opinion Oli, but my point is that there seems to be some arrogance about Scottish races that 'this is how real courses are, we're so hardcore, nothing else is worth riding', which I don't like!
Seems like there were some massive flaws with what should be the biggest domestic race of the year too: [url= http://www.xcracer.com/forum.php?pgid=80&fp=viewtopic&pid=18174 ]Clicky[/url]
You'll all have to head south next year to ride round a field.
Njee - those courses aren't hardcore in anyway shape or form. The course that was raced on at the weekend was a toned down version of that which was originally planned. The sport is called mountain biking, mountains are steep, the have rocks....
THe xcracer thread is just a small number of people that are asking for way too much.....
It's clearly degrading into a 'you' and 'us' debate, which is petty at best!
Knowing the people commenting I don't think what they're saying is out of order, with a couple of exceptions.
Shall we count the spectators?
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Thats about the same number of spectators they had at the worlds at fort bill. XC isn't really a spectator sport.
If you take a couple of exceptions out of that thread you are left with one person with a valid point. That hardly indicates massive problems.
Nick, given that you weren't there I find your comments out of order! 🙄
As for spectators there were loads lining the climb and the downhill on the main course where it was interesting to watch. The nature of the course meant there was never going to be a sprint finish (Liam had 2 mins on Oli) so folk watched from the trackside.
I live near to Thetford and know fully well that nowhere within the locality is any form of [b]Mountain[/b] Biking. Thank the lord im at university in mid-Wales. I would never enter SITS or similar due to the fact they are just riding round a field, if someone decided to do a SITS in the Dyfi forest however...
Stu, my comments are just based on what others have said, repeatedly, the only real accusation I've made specifically against this race is the lack of an atmosphere, which seems unanimously to be the case. Otherwise my comments have been generalisations about racing, which I feel qualified to make. If you don't like that, fine.
I just think it's a bit sad for people like Liam, and other winners, that there's no one there to cheer them home. Stark contrast to last year certainly.
It does seem a bit of a shame that only a few were at the finish line to cheer the winners :(, there were a lot watching along the way although with only about 60% of riders actually riding the descents properly quite a few wandered over to watch the DH riding instead. Top marks to the top guys/gals and some others that did ride things properly.
Once the XC stuff was finished I went over to the DH stuff, much more exciting and very good to watch, funnily enough no one got off to 'walk' any sections- including the young guy that went face first into a tree, got up, shook his head then got back on his bike - OUCH. (yes I do know they are riding very different bikes etc etc but the XC stuff wasnt mega steep or as gnarly as the DH stuff)
Overall a good day and it was good to watch both the XC and DH stuff and seemed well organised/marshalled.
Seems to be only 7 voices repeating themselves on xcracer, so if I were Helen I'd not take it to heart.
And of course a race course should be technical- these are supposed to be the best mountain bikers in the country. If they can't get over it, then they aren't a good enough mountain biker to do well.
I'd guess most of the winners did get over it, the question is whether you want to appeal to the best riders, or the masses.
The money is in attracting the latter, I don't know about SXCs and such but the Gorricks regularly have 100 in each of Fun and Open and 10 in Elite.
If the courses were crazy technical you'd probably still get the 10 in Elite, but you'd also get rid of 2/3 of the 'fun' riders!
They want to appeal to the best riders. It's the british champs, not "who's the best member of the masses". The masses (like me) aren't good enough.