Thanks. One now ordered.
I have also turned on location sharing from my phone to my wife's phone so if I don't turn up she can at least see where I am.
Always a good reminder whenever a thread like this comes up.
Bothy bags are a really very good investment, and as well as being emergency kit can also be used if you need to get out of the weather for bit. My top tip is to carry another bag to put it in. I used mine with my daughter near the top of Skiddaw in some grim conditions, needed to get out of the wind and the rain to put some food in her, warm up, regroup and add some motivation. Worked really well, but getting it back into the stuff sack is impossible with cold, wet hands. I now put the whole of the bothy bag into a bigger bag that is tied together (so they can't blow away). I can them stow it more easily, dry it out at home and then repack it properly when I'm back. Total weight of the summit supalite 4 person bothy bag with the extra bag is 407g. I don't carry it locally but I do carry it on hill days
I actually leave my other one in the van. Good in case I forget to bring my proper one but also for emergencies. Always worry about having to get out and wait around in grim conditions e.g. by the side of a motorway
This was my post at the end of the first page. Seriously recommend another (bigger) bag to put that into. It's a right faff to repack when it's wet
Always interesting to realize how reliant we are on phones as a society. I always think a fun exercise is to see if you have the right gear to get you through if things go south is stop part way through a ride, take a seat for a few minutes and see how quickly you cool down. If you then imagine your phone either has no reception or is broken, where would you be if you were unable to self rescue? Throw in the temperature dropping as it gets dark or the weather turning for the worse and things might seem not quite so comfortable.
Ultimately, risk is for everyone to assess individually and make a judgement on. Only you can decide if you're comfortable accepting that or want to make changes.
Sometimes things just go to shit despite your best efforts and you find yourself in a situation where things begin to spiral. Outdoor sports all carry a degree of risk. Personally, my tolerance for being unnecessarily cold, wet and miserable is pretty low. I'll happily go out in freezing conditions or when it is pissing down but will prepare accordingly.
Besides, this is all a great excuse to buy kit! 😉
I'm always slightly surprised by how many people think that just because distances to a road or other form of "civilisation" aren't necessarily that far then things can't go to ratshit surprisingly quickly.
My 'oh ***' moment above was about two miles from a village on familiar trails. Had I been unable to walk that would have made no difference whatsoever, I would have been just as screwed as if I was in the middle of nowhere.
The one advantage of having Reynauds is that I always have a couple of dry base layers and a spare pair of gloves with me (made a sling from a base layer in this case)
Ah crap, sorry to read this Jon. You're the sort to heal ahead of schedule, so hope that's the case.
Input on trail conditions......bridges are often a few degrees colder than elsewhere - chilled from below. Was out around the Cairngorms a few weeks ago and some of the tracks had stripes of unmelted snow across them above the large drainage pipes. I'd have gone out and no doubt fallen on your slapey bridge - I broke ribs last year walking/failing to walk on ice.
This thread has convinced me to buy a bothy bag. Thinking about the Summit Supalite 2. At 265g who cares if I carry it in the bottom of the sac for years without using it? Anyone used one of these?
https://www.summitgear.co.uk/product/supalite-bothy-bag-2-person/
Well that was quick. Arrived via Royal Mail this morning. Quick test drive in the house seems good. No way was it going back in the original bag. I stuck it in a slightly larger bag. Now measures 8x4" and weighs 295g. A bit under 1L in volume. So I won't miss the space in a 60L waking sac.
As per my photo a couple of days ago, I thought yesterday "I'd better dig that bag out and put it in my riding pack, with the first aid kit, so it's always with me". Hunted high and low on the shelves of camping/climbing/riding kit earlier, and could I find it? Could I 'eck as like! It's so small (relatively) I've obviously put it somewhere 'safe' and now it's hidey-tidied by me. Grrrr. Cross with myself....
Great thread. I've been thinking about upping my "survival kit" as I've drifted into solo riding with fairly minimal stuff. Regarding Spot Trackers and InReach devices... I read somewhere that Ofcom have laid out a framework for mobile operators to be able to use satellite connections, ie., direct from phone to satellite when 4g/5g isn't available. I think it is supposed to be happening this year. Sorry, no firm details!
Meanwhile I've looked at InReach capable devices but I'm a bit put off by the subscription costs (I'm usually within phone network coverage).
About to order a bothy bag as a starter!
Thanks
I’ve used bothy bags a zillion times with pairs/groups but never solo. From memory a lot of the benefit was from the shared warmth - are they much better than something like a blizzard bag when you’re by yourself?
I’ve used bothy bags a zillion times with pairs/groups but never solo. From memory a lot of the benefit was from the shared warmth - are they much better than something like a blizzard bag when you’re by yourself?
I find them a bit baggy (and therefore blowy) if being used solo. I have a two-man bothy bag and a classic Karrimor KISU (Karrimor Instructor Survival Unit) that will happily take four folk, but I'll take a little solo bag if travelling alone. I also have a SOL Escape which I've actually used as a functional, lightweight bivvy bag.
I just take a bivvy bag. No ideal from groups but isn't terribly heavy and I know it works.
I don't take it every time though, only on rides/runs/walks where I'm taking a pack but not a tent.
Since discovering a couple crashed on the first downhill bit of the blue at Deggers (I was on a second lap having done the black) - the poor lass was impaled on her bars (no end plugs). It was around late March/early April. Only had t-shirts. I gave them my waterproof to keep warm, whilst we waited for the staff to arrive, followed by air ambulance. I carried on at this point. I now carry a foil blanket in every backpack, and when off grid have a emergency bivvy - you never know when or who may need one.
I came off on black ice on the way to work this time last year (with studded tyres) and made a mess of my hip socket and pelvis (I didn't know at the time and dragged myself off the main road). I couldn't walk or ride so phoned home. In the 20 minutes or so that my son took to reach me I got very cold. I had a base, thermal/windproof top that's good to minus 10, and a windproof Gillet - still got cold so managed to put on waterproof top.
I was dressed for riding, not standing at minus 5.
the poor lass was impaled on her bars (no end plugs)
!!! Nightmare scenario.
I was dressed for riding, not standing at minus 5.
I don’t think it’s possible to dress for both. Warm enough to go for a gentle walk is not warm enough to sit outside a pub for an hour.
I was lying on the ground still attached to my bike, it was November and not too cold. But after 15 or 20 minutes lying on the ground I was shivering and that was wearing more than I would've done in a normal riding scenario. Comments were made on how well I was pretending to be cold but I wasn't pretending l, it was a real eye opener to how quickly you get cold when lying still on the ground.
I was a passer by at an incident in the local town centre where an elderly lady walking home from the shops (in winter, some snow and ice) had slipped on icy cobbles, gone over and broken her hip. She was off the main drag but outside some houses and on a popular walking route so there were people with her quickly. Various neighbours from the surrounding houses brought duvets, bedding etc, someone brought a gazebo to put over her. But we couldn't move her and she was still lying on freezing cold stony ground. In spite of the small mound of duvets over her, she was really getting very cold. We were making increasingly desperate calls to the ambulance begging them to escalate the urgency, each time being advised that it'd be about 2hrs.
And this was a woman dressed for the cold in a big winter coat, she'd only nipped to the shops. A fell runner or MTBer out on a hillside somewhere with no duvets or gazebo would have been hypothermic in minutes.
I’ve used bothy bags a zillion times with pairs/groups but never solo. From memory a lot of the benefit was from the shared warmth - are they much better than something like a blizzard bag when you’re by yourself?
The advantage of a Blizzard Bag, I have one somewhere, is that it's (claimed) to be roughly as warm in insulation terms as a medium weight sleeping bag, they say 5.5 TOG, as well as being wind and waterproof, so in the right situation, arguably yes, more effective than a solo bothy bag. You'd have to think about reducing heat loss to the ground, but on balance given the choice of a few hours caught out in a Blizzard Bag or in a solo bothy one, I'd take the added insulation of the former.
I've knocked myself out on a trail a situation where layers or emergency phone aren't going to help, so I think tracking as also important. My Garmin automatically emails a few family members every time I go out and while I know you can't guarantee mobile coverage it's good enough to narrow down the area and direction.
I’m ordering one of those Blizzard bags. What a great piece of kit!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm rarely in locations where cold is going to be too problematic unless needing overnight shelter, but I carry an emergency blanket just in case.
However, for hiking and (proper) adventure moto riding I used to carry one of these lightweight tarps Escapist Tarp Shelter | Sea to Summit - having seen a few broken leg incidents on rides I realised that waiting for a chopper without shade would be ****ing miserable.
They're really easy to set up off trees, handlebars etc. Once used it for overnight shelter in Tassie when a certain Mrs Reeksy forgot to pack the tent!
Best wishes for you recovery, Jon. Treat it as a project, do what you can to optimise things, make future plans is my advice. I think the problem with risk assessment on stuff like this is that it's one of those things where everything's okay until it isn't, but the more it is, the less likely it seems that it won't be, if that makes sense. I've done some pretty (relatively) high risk things in the past and every time I emerge unscathed, it maybe makes me a little bit complacent - either that or my risk assessment skills are okay.
Really good mountaineers, for example, have a very, very precise grasp of both their own abilities and the risk level/consequence of what they're doing. It's the difference between say, Joe Simpson - who's risk-meter was arguably slightly off - and, say, Leo Houlding, who seems to have the ability to climb just within his own and the environment's limits. And then, sometimes, shit just happens.
I once had a strip torn off me by a thoughtful doctor friend for riding a biggish Peak loop solo in temperatures down to -16˚C with loads of ice and snow around. My calculation was that as an experienced local rider, on Ice Spikers, carrying basic emergency kit and with good fitness, lights just in case etc. I had a cracking day, nothing bad happened, no iffy moments bar the odd slide and I finished by believing I'd taken on an acceptable level of risk in exchange for a really cool day out. I may have been correct in that, I may simply have been fortunate and a random slide could have landed me in a potentially really bad situation. It was cold enough that I finished off riding the home stretch wearing my emergency PrimaLoft jacket.
Ultimately you do what you can to eliminate casual risks and plan to cope adequately if things do go bad. I always think the most frightening, dangerous thing is people taking risks that they don't realise are even there. But it sounds like you were mostly a little unlucky and hit an objective danger that maybe you couldn't reasonably have predicted.
Meanwhile I've looked at InReach capable devices but I'm a bit put off by the subscription costs (I'm usually within phone network coverage).
Garmin aren't the only people that offer data plans for their devices, some are a lot cheaper too! I had these folks recommended to me when I was looking into this myself; Protegear. (the .de website)
Good post by @BadlyWiredDog
My dad took me up the Buachille for my second climb - Agags Groove. On the way up the otherwise easy access path he pointed out a two or the step section as the path crossed of a steep stream/gully. Nothing to it but unlike the rest of the path if you slipped you were going a long way down. A friend of his was killed there walking down after doing hard rock climbs earlier. The danger being relaxing too much on easy ground with a steep drop. Once you are higher up and needing to use your hands scrambling up Curved Ridge the focus takes care of itself.
Message I took was that it isn't how hard anything is it is what the worst downside is if it goes wrong and adjusting behaviour/focus as appropriate. So if I am solo somewhere remote with no phone signal I have at the back of my mind that I can't afford to have an serious accident and thus far have managed 45 years later to avoid doing so bar one occassion when I gashed my leg but could walk off.
Apparently recent iPhones can send an emergency text via satellite if there's no cellphone signal:
https://keswickmrt.org.uk/rescue/dubs-hut-5/
Being a numptie presumably isn't a condition of use.
Interesting thread: thank you.
I've dug out an emergency whistle for my hip bag. I also carry a buff (for tourniquet), phone, jacket and flashing red LED.
My family know, if I go missing, to check my email for a tracking link from my GPS. That and I tell them where I am going and when I expect to be back (not that they ever listen).
If I die on the hill, it will be what I wanted 🙂
Recent local MRT rescues for cyclists have been
1) Rider with broken neck after messing up a jump tucked off the main path. Passing walker heard his shouts, called his wife who called an ambulance. Ambulance turned up, said can't do that and then phoned MRT. Rider is OK.
2) Visitor came unstuck on an evening ride of the Touch Hills. Got lost in heavy rain and had to spend the night out on the hills. Family phoned for help the following morning with the a police helicopter locating him close to his last known position. Coastguard helicopter took him to hospital. Having a map and compass would not have helped him if he wanted to get off the exposed hillside as the OS maps for this area are out of date and next to useless - What look like tracks on the map are knee-deep bogs, while the many shooting and windfarm tracks are not shown.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/missing-cyclist-discovered-after-spending-32926199
3) Rider knocked himself out in the local woods. Police search eventually located him after spotting his flashing back light (I believe). Family phoned help after the rider failed to return home for his tea. Initial search was in the wrong area which wasted valuable time.
4) Rider with broken ankle. Transported off the hill by friends with the ankle strapped with a pump and two inner-tubes.
"Having a map and compass would not have helped him"
That is a bold assertion.
Concerned by the number of comments about 999 text, plbs etc but no mention of additional clothes.
I run extremely warm but know that I'd need a shit ton of clothes to survive incapacitated more than an hour or so on many of the rides I do.
There's been a couple of rides that I've taken sleeping bag on, as I knew that there was no way I'd have survived stationary for the average MRT response time without one. One of them was a road ride!
In the spirit of you can't be too careful today I saw a hillwalker wearing a helmet strolling uphill from Dumgoyne Distillery on to the Campsies.
Re the sleeping bag. You’re not the only one………
As for clothes, I too run warm but know how quickly I cool down when stopped. I just invested in a Mountain Equipment Fitzroy synthetic belay jacket for winter snow rides. A couple of snow rides in the Lakes last year made me realize that I needed something a bit warmer than what I had. Top of Thorthwaite Beacon in the wind and snow when the valley was minus 8 and on top of Dove Crag riding below zero helped focus the mind. I was warm and had enough kit but just wanted that bit extra warmth in case I really needed it.
Cycle helmet or climbing helmet? I’ve worn my helmet up there several times but I did have my bike with me!!!!!!!
https://mountainrescue.org.uk/incidents/2025/101/
The two bikers who helped were my friend James and his mate on a night ride from Ambleside. To be fair to the guy, he was so grateful for the assist that when he returned the lent lights, he gave James and his mate £50 to say thank you. Hopefully he did the same for the rescue team.
The iPhone emergency satellite messaging apparently works well in the UK for contacting MR, as per this article! https://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/25774782.walker-used-iphone-alert-ask-keswick-mrt-advice/
it's not quite as simple as just sending a text, so the iPhone has a demo mode you can use any time to acquaint yourself with the procedure (which is probably worth doing!) https://support.apple.com/en-gb/105097#demo
When you send the message it'll automatically send your location as well as any Medical ID data you've filled in beforehand. You can then communicate directly with rescue services via satellite text.
Honestly I wouldn't have done anything different to you.
Though WTW is not fit for emergency use and shouldn't be used as such for exactly the reasons you suggest - unless it has changed significantly since I first checked it, it requires a data connection, needs maps to load and gives no more info than a bog standard grid ref. Not to mention the fact that grey.bearded.clam and grey.bearded.clams can be continents apart, or miles apart, which doesn't help in an emergency.
I used to have a SPOT tracker but the subscription became ludicrously expensive for the very few times a year I did anything remotely exciting/remote.
Honestly I wouldn't have done anything different to you.
Though WTW is not fit for emergency use and shouldn't be used as such for exactly the reasons you suggest - unless it has changed significantly since I first checked it, it requires a data connection, needs maps to load and gives no more info than a bog standard grid ref. Not to mention the fact that grey.bearded.clam and grey.bearded.clams can be continents apart, or miles apart, which doesn't help in an emergency.
I’m far from an advocate for W3W but if we are going to criticise it we should probably get our actual “defects” right:
• if installed on your phone in advance you do not need a data connection to get a W3W location
• you do not need the maps to load to get a location (but if unfamiliar with the W3w interface you might need that to feel confident that the location you are giving is correct).
• it is possible for two different W3W locations to sound the same, but they don’t use plurals for that reason. Statistically they are likely to be very far apart forcing the rescue services to question why they have a caller reporting a location in a different country. However there are potentially locations close enough, with similar enough locations to cause confusion. (But let’s not pretend that nobody had ever mixed digits in a grid ref or lat lon - even if you are perfect under pressure these things involve other people transcribing stuff). Neither of your examples are valid W3W locations. If it’s so easy to miscommunicate locations people would use real examples that were feasibly confusable both in language and in geography.
• the bigger issues will be gps accuracy of any system in dense tree cover, especially on a steep hillside in poor weather, and the potential need to relocate to get signal to call for help.
I used to have a SPOT tracker but the subscription became ludicrously expensive for the very few times a year I did anything remotely exciting/remote.
Just get PLB you register it and get the batteries replaced every 7 years. No subscription. They send a distress signal and your location via satellite to the emergency services.
Given my last phone would give your position up to 1 km from where you are, I would take phone locations as not entirely reliable.
Though WTW is not fit for emergency use and shouldn't be used as such for exactly the reasons you suggest - lam and grey.bearded.clams can be continents apart, or miles apart, which doesn't help in an emergency.
I’m far from an advocate for W3W but if we are going to criticise it we should probably get our actual “defects” right:
You certainly seem to defend it. It's performed poorly in emergency situations for me personally and detailed critiques highlight some significant issues. Ultimately it's a paid for service - it's costing ES money to use - and it is a private company that's not profitable (so it could shut down at any time). There are free alternatives. That alone should have been enough for it to be discounted.
https://www.reddit.com/r/searchandrescue/comments/1d63v94/what3words_what_the_hell/
https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/
Though WTW is not fit for emergency use and shouldn't be used as such for exactly the reasons you suggest - lam and grey.bearded.clams can be continents apart, or miles apart, which doesn't help in an emergency.
I’m far from an advocate for W3W but if we are going to criticise it we should probably get our actual “defects” right:You certainly seem to defend it.
no I’m saying if you are going to criticise it - use real examples not made up ones with hypothetical different continents which are likely to be so obviously wrong to merit investigation.
Have the alternatives you have used worked without fail? Nobody has ever mixed up an Easting and Northing on an old school map reading (or plotting). Nobody presented with a 2 letter + 10 digit number (for the same precision as W3W) and transposed a digit, or when it is read out misheard it? Nobody has even confused d.ddddd d m.mmm and d m s.ss formats when using lat long?It's performed poorly in emergency situations for me personally and detailed critiques highlight some significant issues.
those may well be valid arguments, they may well be stronger arguments than the actual design of their logic but (1) I don’t think it costs ES much money - they will be justifying any costs with time savings spend hunting for people (2) the ES applications are a clever, perhaps sneaky, marketing tactic because W3W really want couriers, food delivery companies etc to use it! But if ES should never buy products from loss making startups there can never be any innovation - if it goes bust are we worse off than if it never existed. (3) free isn’t necessarily better, just as paid isn’t necessarily worse (4) OSGB isn’t really free - OS charge license fees for its mapping. (5) I doubt very much there is an ES call centre anywhere in the UK who are only using W3W. Individual call handlers may have a preference - but I am sure if I call any 999 service today with a properly formatted OSGB ref it will get resolved: even if they need to call someone else to translate it (HMCG seem able to use Lat/Lon W3W and OSGB interchangeably depending on who they are talking to). I have no idea why they need it though because all uk 999 calls from smartphone have location information availableUltimately it's a paid for service - it's costing ES money to use - and it is a private company that's not profitable (so it could shut down at any time). There are free alternatives. That alone should have been enough for it to be discounted.
Would I invest in W3W? No - whilst I’ve used it for various things I can’t see how it can make real money. Would I stop using traditional mapping references? no, that’s not its purpose. Would I use W3W as a tool for a member of the public to input a location from a printed label etc? definitely it works well for that. Is it useful for emergency services? Probably.
• if installed on your phone in advance you do not need a data connection to get a W3W location
• you do not need the maps to load to get a location (but if unfamiliar with the W3w interface you might need that to feel confident that the location you are giving is correct).
• it is possible for two different W3W locations to sound the same, but they don’t use plurals for that reason.
They do use plurals, and homonyms. I'm not sure why you think they don't? This is a major complaint about them, and they're statistically quite regularly very close to each other.
Take a look:
https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/
Personally I've never gotten a 6 figure grid ref wrong (easily big enough to get a search team to find you), and it's fairly easy to give over a phone call in the wind, but of course it could be mistaken the same as anything, but maybe less so than a short combination of words that have many homonyms and are close by.
And personally I just don't see the point, there's a perfectly usable system available. Two in fact, one local with massive historical use, and one worldwide with even more. Why add to the mix (I know why, they wanted to make a system they could sell, simple). I find that irritating, and the fact that it's not "better" in any way makes it even more irritating - we made a thing, it has more problems, please all use it and now force the emergency services to use it also.
I had that when I broke down. I had a grid ref, should be nice and simple to tell the recovery guys where I am (Green Flag) They would not take a grid reference. They kept asking me for a postcode. Absolutely no idea. Have you got the what3words app? No. Can you download it? Have you any idea how hard it was just getting a telephone signal here? I have a grid reference of my exact location, how hard can that be? Ended up trying to describe how to get there from the junction of the nearest major road.
What advantage doesWTW have over OS grid refs?
Flat pedals ftw
If you use the Locate Me function in the OS Maps app, you are given the option to share the location by Messenger, SMS, Email etc. (that's the 10-digit location.) I'm assuming W3W has a similar share function to help eliminate errors and inaccuracies?
Don't know if it's already been mentioned but there is a standalone OS locate app
Don't know if it's already been mentioned but there is a standalone OS locate app
I have that standalone OS app on my home screen, downloaded after another thread on here about someone fellrunning and breaking their leg, - it's great - it tells you your position to 3 figures and heading - no confusion, no looking for info its just there (fortunately never needed to use in earnest). However......OS say that this is no longer available and you need to download the full OS Maps app. It appears to be on the android store, but no idea if it is downloadable.
I also have memorymap on my phone, and that has position showing on that screen, with five figure accuracy.
I downloaded it this evening
