Forum menu
...Well known bike shop in Daventry
Picture the scene..
I'm looking through the race-jerseys whilst behind me a potential customer is sitting on a Santa Cruz nomad asking questions and having a chat with the sales-person. The sales person says in response to one of the customers questions about how capable the bike is, " let's put it this way, I can ride down any UK downhill track quicker on that than I can on a downhill bike".
We're going to ser a lot of Nomads on the downhill circuit soon.
That was pretty much what the lad at an lbs close to me said the other day. He has competed d/h for a few years now and will continue to, although enduro has got him now and he's begun to do more trail stuff too, apparently.
His boss laughed and told him that his next bike would be an XC racer.
That will be the same bike shop that when I went looking for a potential new frame or 29er when asked what bikes I already had was told "well you don't need another" ! Guess who lost out on a sale!
Pffft, I can ride pretty much any UK DH on my road bike. On 23s.*
*As one member of this parish might say....! 😉
I can ride any UK downhill I've done pretty much just as fast on a trailbike as on a DH bike. It's because I'm shit and can't use the DH bike's potential. Or the trailbike's potential for that matter.
Unless your actually racing DH at the sharp end, then a DH bike is largely pointless when 'enduro' bikes are so good and so much more versatile.
Although I'm not agreeing with the statement 100% by any stretch you do need to bear in mind that at the 2014 Downhill World Champs Jared Graves opted to ride his Yeti SB66 Carbon trail bike (the same as I rode XC!) and took it all the way to a silver medal.
In [i]some[/i] circumstances the lad [i]could[/i] be correct.
Quick edit - just realised that reads like I rode World Cup XC - something I can assure you I most certainly did not!!!
Not even newnham?
*far far more likely to say "STFU you sanctimonious prick"
it's good advice. 😉
Ha! Jam Bo, yeah I did ride the the WC at Newnham a couple of times (and Fort William actually) but never made it to the big race so I guess it doesn't count 😉
I wasn't inclined to entirely believe what I was told.
But I wouldn't know either, because I'm certain I don't know what the limits of my trail bike are. Because I'm an old scarcedy cat.
Don't really see a problem with the salespersons comment really, maybe not the most eloquent.
Perfectly valid statement, no?
UK, DH, doubt you're actually going to be any quicker on a DH bike or held back by a bike like the nomad, well certainly not at regional level maybe even not at national elite, marginal gains and all that. IE bottom 95% will be fully dependant on skill set, maybe the top 5% will actually make use of those MARGINAL gains.
At the end of the day, how do you quantify how capable a bike is without coming across as a bit of a joke?
"STFU you sanctimonious prick"
Is that really the best you can come up with? I've been insulted by people with doctorates, and that really doesn't cut the mustard.
I think you'll find a few years spent researching and writing a dull study into something only slightly different than many many others have before you is in no way indicative of ones aptitude to hand out a decent insult.
it's not really the words you need to be wary of 😉
" let's put it this way, I can ride down any [b][i]UK downhill[/i][/b] track quicker on that than I can on a downhill bike"
Emphasis on the UK and I'm inclined to agree with him. 90% of UK tracks anyway. Probably wouldn't shout about it in a bike shop though.
Well, I can ride 99% of UK DH trails quicker on my DH bike and will have a go at gaps I wouldn't even consider on my Santa Cruz trail bike.
Awesome shop assistant said...[i]I can ride down any UK downhill track quicker on that than I can on a downhill bike[/i]. I say, how my DH tracks in Northern Ireland has he ridden?
Every DH trail on the mainland must be pretty tame.
What scruff said goes for me too.
Adding to that I know that I most likely won't destroy my dh bike at speed. Where as I doubt my bandit or similar would be as happy after a trip down the double black somewhere like antur
I'm intrigued as to how many folks agreeing with the sentiments of the original sales guy actually own a dh bike?
Modern trail bikes are amazingly capable but as fast as a dh bike on dh tracks they are not - if they were at some of the 10-15dh races I do each year some (or any even) of the fast guys would be on trail bikes.
Bandit is 130mm . Nomad is 170mm. Big difference.
I owned and ridden a lot of DH bikes. The fast guys would kick your ass on whatever they rode but like I said, until your at the sharp end a DH bike isn't worth it.
I know I'm faster on my dh bike at Dunkeld, Fort Bill, Ae, most of Inners DH, Pitmedden, Falkland, Lennox, Glencoe,... Loads more.
That's all I can input input here. These stories of Enduro bikes being as fast as dh bikes on dh tracks are churned out by the same machine that told us we need 27.5.
Haha. The fast guys could ride a shopper downhill faster than probably all of us on here on sh bikes.
I happen to like having a stack load of travel and a bike that isn't going to break on me.
I know I feel happier on my dh bike than on any of the others. 130mm, 160mm. Whatever
If its who I think it is, he is no slouch on a bike and I'm fairly sure he's replaced his dh bike with an enduro bike.
With forks, shocks and suspension design being more capable and efficient over the last couple of years, enduro bikes on some tracks will be faster and as others have said unless your up at the sharp end, its the rider.
So, the best riders would be fast on any bike, also you need to be one of the best riders to make a dh bike worthwhile. Average riders should buy a (new) nomad for everything. Does that sound about right?
Only if it has new sized wheels. Otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be making any money
Salesman was clearly trying to 'big up' the Nomad and chase the sale...customer on hearing that his potential new purchase is quicker than a DH bike hands over cash...oldest trick in the book.
Back in the 80s salesmen at my local Peugeot (car) dealership did a roaring trade in selling 205 GTi's on the basis that 'in the real world its as quick from A to B as a 911'....for the average numpty this is probably true but if you can actually drive and use a 911 to its fullest potential you will wipe the floor with a hot hatch....
....same with the DH bike and Nomad being discussed, the average rider (myself included) is probably no quicker on a DH sled than on my trail bike but if you can actually ride then you'll appreciate the angles, stiffness and travel of a proper 'tool for the job' DH bike and blitz you previous best times downhill that you set on a trail/AM/enduro bike.
Jared Graves took Bronze medal at the Pietermaritzburg track on his Yeti Enduro bike....a good showing but very very track specific, Pietermaritzburg is considered by most riders to be a 'motorway' of a DH track....put it this way, if the World Champs that year had been anywhere else on the WC calendar Mr Graves would've been reaching for his dedicated DH bike!
Only if it has new sized wheels. Otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be making any money
Were 26" wheels all produced at zero margin to manufacturers?
Jared Graves took Bronze medal at the Pietermaritzburg track on his Yeti Enduro bike....a good showing but very very track specific, Pietermaritzburg is considered by most riders to be a 'motorway' of a DH track....put it this way, if the World Champs that year had been anywhere else on the WC calendar Mr Graves would've been reaching for his dedicated DH bike!
Whilst I agree that Pitermartizburg is one of the tamer WC courses you're wrong regarding what he'd reach for else where.
His reasoning wasn't track specific at all. He'd spent the whole season racing enduro on his SB so he knew he was fast on it. He knew he'd not put in enough time on his DH bike to be as comfortable and hence opted for his very very capable trail bike as he knew he'd be quicker.
richie must know something from within the Graves camp that the rest of us don't.
Well he is the uk yeti importer.
richie must know something from within the Graves camp that the rest of us don't.
Not really that was all over the interviews at the time, he also said that people should ride the track before dismissing it. He is also a supremely talented rider with a very strong background in BMX/4X and if anyone could make those jumps without dropping speed it would be him.
He is one of the most open riders going for talking about whats going on, his blog gives all his setups for every race and a report on how it all went.
In the OP's case the shop guy was trying to make the sale.
The Graves thing was in an interview at the time.
In the OP's case the shop guy was trying to make the sale.
Cynical bastard, trying to sell a bike to a customer 🙂
Anyway, I've probably said something similar and in my case it happened to be true. My current 160mm trail bike is as near as makes no difference to the old dh bikes it replaced. Similar ha, similar bb height, wheel base, and probably better damped. Also as someone else said, for the ordinary 5-8 something like a Nomad is so capable it might as well be a World Cup DH bike as they'll never get close to exploiting either.
What's your current trail bike Jim?
and do you mean similar sagged or static?
mtbelWhat's your current trail bike Jim?
and do you mean similar sagged or static?
Current trail bike is a Ghost Cagua. Static HA is 65.5, static bb very low due to shorter shock. Never measured it sagged as that would require someone else to be complicit in my sadness. And just to clarify, I'm saying it's faster for me than the old DH bikes I owned, which it rendered redundant - not that it's faster than a modern DH bike.
Back in the day I can remember when a group of riders did the cheddar challenge DH on shopping bikes...they weren't last by a long way
I raced a few regional DH's hardtail (when the cat still existed) wasn't last but it was uncomfortable
thanks Jim.
Haven't really looked at Ghost bikes before.
shorter shock (E2E) with the same stroke, yeah?
what shock are you running?
I can ride any downhill course on my son's balance bike faster than on a downhill bike..
You lot wanna wake up and stop listening to marketing spiel
Salesman in, saying something that might help him make a sale shocker...
On any tricky / rooty / rutted Alps trail I can ride down faster on a DH bike than an enduro/all-mountain 160 bike. I haven't encountered such trails in the UK but I would have to believe the average rider here do get down the Fort William track quicker on a DH bike and an enduro.
Speed isn't all of it. How about drops and jumps? Yes again Jared graves could clear the Grand Canyon on a shopping trolley. However, our local trail has biggest drop about 6ft high and 25 feet to clear or a table top at 30feet (yes its measured). I'm happy going at full speed at these on my DH bike. I've got stuff very wrong and whilst I had to change my TL Jim Jams I didn't crash and my bike was fine. Theres no way Id get away with it on my trail bike and even if I did I'm pretty sure something would break.
I cant afford £8k on a Carbon CC Nomad with ENVE upgrade so I'll stick to my two appropriate bikes for now.
Personally I can walk most dh tracks faster than I can ride them but for my pennies worth:
If the guy is any good, knows what he's capable of and can use the bike to a good extent he's probably just as quick or quicker on the nomad.
If he's superb he's likely to eek out the few seconds from more appropriate kit, he would, as previously said though, be faster on a shopper than most of us on anything and faster on the bike he rides a the time over the most singing and dancing dh bike he's never ridden before.
Where to some extent I disagree with most of the above is that for the majority of riders a dh bike will be quicker because frankly we're rubbish and rely on the bike to do a lot of the work, we aren't confident that we have the skills to not break the bike so slow down. The fake sense of security that comes from thinking your kit will let you get away with things counts for an awful lot to most riders.
The fake sense of security that comes from thinking your kit will let you get away with things counts for an awful lot to most riders.
It's not just a fake sense of security though is it... a DH or longer travel bike WILL let you get away with more.. so it's 100% not fake. People can ride more technical trails on more suited machines.. I would find that very hard to argue against