[Closed] So it looks like 10 speed really is on the way

Looking forward to picking up lots of cheap 9 speed bits in the classifieds shortly.

Keep up, there's already a thread relating to the story, and it's been common knowledge for a while that XTR, XT and SLX are changing for next year.

Shhhh... that's just rumour njee...

Wondering about the casette range!

I'm happy using 9sp and the middle ring for hills on commutes with luggage. Even used the granny ring on uber climbs with 20kg laden but reckon with time+fitness should be fine.

But on the mtb or roadbike I'm happy with the middle for hills and 10sp.

Thing is not everyone is! some are not fit or have injuries etc.

So will we have 38T on the back???

That's where you use a double!

No, there'll be 36s on the back, which combined with a double will give virtually the same range as a 3x9 with an 11-32.

If this gets pulled it's faintly ridiculous, the info's all out there. I won't link to it, but check the sort of forums frequented by weight conscious for lots of info.

In 1999 Shimano went 9 speed with XTR, XT and LX all at the same time, so it makes sense they'll do all 3 groups again for 2011.

Not wishing to sound like a troll, but does anyone (other than racers I guess) actually want/need 10 speed? Serious question, maybe I'm missing something here?

A number of people seem to want it, need it? Of course not, but we don't need bikes.

i want it so i can drop my front derailier stick on a chain device and have one less thing to worry about maintaining and or breaking on my bike

At least front mechs will be easier to position with just 2 rings lol

i want it so i can drop my front derailier stick on a chain device and have one less thing to worry about maintaining and or breaking on my bike

[i]need it? Of course not, but we don't need bikes[/i]

I do really, otherwise I'd spend a lot of time walking. The thing is, I used to have a bike with 21 gears which worked really well. Then I had one with 24 gears, which was OK too. Then I ended up with one with 27 gears which was worse in every way except for racing on, and was considerably more expensive. Now I'm going to end up with one which has 20 gears which are as good for racing on as the 27 were but which are in all other respects a total ball-ache. And it's going to cost [i]even more[/i].

I don't want to turn into sfb, but from the point of view of the enthusiast rather than the racer it's tricky seeing real advantages, but SLX (which is hardly a race-head's groupset) will be converted, ye say. 🙂

But you can do the same with 9spd...granted 1x10 would be slightly better, but if you're not 1x9 now i dont see the massive need

well i run 1x9 on my commuter and im surprised how versatile it is
its improved my fitness too!
11-32 with a 44 tooth ring

and 36t 12-32 on my dh bike

my do it all bike is 2x9 24/34 x 11-32

but i reckon a 12-36 with a 36 up front could be 'the schnizzle' for off road stuff

tho 11-36 would be better

I hope 7 speed stuff will still be available as it clogs less.

well i run 1x9 on my commuter and im surprised how versatile it is
its improved my fitness too!
11-32 with a 44 tooth ring

but i reckon a 12-36 with a 36 up front could be 'the schnizzle' for off road stuff

I'd be happy to go to 2X10. The 2X9 from Middleburn was a mare to shift but IIRC it was something like 46/26?

For my riding the granny is redundant and the outer is only used on fields, fire roads and tarmac. Plus I race.
I'll probably try and phase 10 speed in.
Looks like my lad will inherit some nice XT and XTR.

Then I ended up with one with 27 gears which was worse in every way except for racing on

In what way was it better for racing? And in what way was it worse in every other aspect?

And what will make 2x10 'more of a ball ache'?

I run 2x9 on my hardtail, 28/40 with an 11-34, which pretty closely replicates the FS with 2x10: 28/42 with 11-36. Big/big is a bit smoother on the hardtail, smaller sprockets so less of an angle with the chain.

10 speed may bring double set ups to more people, but frankly if you already run/ran an XC orientated double (ie not 22/34/bash) then you're not really gaining much.

id be happy with 7 speed 2 x 7 with a quality light weight set up, i dont need all the ratios i have and find I have to double or triple shift when riding, so I may seem like a grumpy old git but I dont want 10 speed mtb kit.
Im happy with it on the road bike mind.

nope you're all wrong. one gear is the future. No need to shift and counter shift, light weight system and minimal maintenance, what's not to like?

"Not wishing to sound like a troll, but does anyone (other than racers I guess) actually want/need 10 speed?"

As long as it comes with a 36-11 cassette, I'll be all over it i think. Though I'd sooner have a 36-11 9-speed cassette. Either way I'd use it to hike up the front rings without losing the lower gear, lovely.

i think its mostly designed to get people to buy new groupsets by dangling the carrot of betterness

bugger, that means alivio will be going 9 speed. Where am I going to be able to get 8 speed stuff from?

I run an 11-34 cassette. Not sure 11-36 is going to bring me any real advantage. Certainly not enough of an advantage to throw away the granny ring.

I'll stick with 22-34 as a bottom gear thanks. I like the chanllenge of trying to ride up stuff that would be quicker to walk.

Maybe I'll run the 10 speed 11-36 with a triple when stuff needs changing but I'm not going to rush out and buy it now. In fact, I'm going to start saving now so I can buy cheap 9 speed XTR shifters and Xt cassettes!

2x10 might be a bit better range than 2x9 which I have on both my MTBs. I might even consider going 1x10 with a guide instead of a front derailler.

What BD said.

And it's interesting that lots of cross racers still prefer 8sp for the robustness of chains over 9sp and especially 10sp.

I think I've just turned into an old curmudgeon.

"one gear is the future.... what's not to like?"

hills?

"one gear is the future. No need to shift and counter shift"

Just as much need, just without the ability to meet the need.

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njee20 - Member

No, there'll be 36s on the back, which combined with a double will give virtually the same range as a 3x9 with an 11-32.

then just leave it as it is. i run 2x9. if i were to run 2x10 i'd get an extra TWO gears. that'll make the world of difference!

pedalhead - Member

Not wishing to sound like a troll, but does anyone (other than racers I guess) actually want/need 10 speed? Serious question, maybe I'm missing something here?

i don't. i question the need for 9 speed when i see my mate on his old rusty GT with 2x7....

is more always better?

Isn't Stan of no tubes fame playing around with a 6 speed rear wheel so it cane be dishless with fewer spokes? He seems to think less is more.

1 x 14 here but reckon 14 X 1 would be even better.

That means I should be able to go for a 34t front ring and an 11-36 to replace my 32 and 11-? 1x9 and still manage to get up the hills while being faster going back down them.

I just hope it arrives before my current drivetrain dies.

Oh and does anybody have any idea if a 9spd mech will work with 10spd shifters/cassette/chain? It used to work when I had a 8spd mech and the rest was 9spd or is 10spd to precise?

bigrich - Member

i think its mostly designed to get people to buy new groupsets by dangling the carrot of betterness

Is the correct answer, Its all about increasing sales by increasing need and I would be prepared to bet its all incompatible with existing stuff

Don't forget Shimonao have a new rear casette: 12-36, partly in response of the 29er evolution.

Personally, I think it looks like a very good, logical evolution of the whole 3-9 set up we mostly have at present.
I assume the chains might be a little narrower (?) & therefore lighter (?).

TJ - that's how businesses make money afterall (nothing wrong with that at all) & it'll sell like proverbial hot cakes!

This is a racers set up isn't it? I said I'd get away with it for my local stuff, but I'm not sure how usefull it would be for 'all' my mountainbiking.
And there's almost a sense here of adapting your riding to suit the kit.
Needs a good looking at I think, so in the meantime I'll tinker with cassettes and continue to swap between a Ultegra and XT cassettes.

this is bad news.

everytime they squeeze another cog in the back, it means more time fiddling around with cable tension trying to keep them in sync.

(more cogs in the same space means less room for error).

i really don't see how this improves anything for anyone, it's just getting silly now, like 5 bladed razors...

Any news on an XT double yet? Dunno if i can stretch to the XTR unit!
Thanx Max

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speed[/url]

I quite like the idea, although

8speed - chain and cassette easily 'lasted' a year

9speed - chain and cassette barely 'lasted' a year

With 10s Im actualy going to have to take shares out in chain companies and replace them every few months because persumably 10s cassettes with their spiderless design arent going to be as cheep so can't just run them into the ground for 12 months.

Presumably deore is staying 9 speed?

TandemJeremy - Member

I would be prepared to bet its all incompatible with existing stuff

I'll take that bet up - tenner?

Shimano road 10 speed is all back compatible (except for the very latest Dura Ace and possibly Ultegra due to different cable pull) - eg 10 speed cassette fits on a 9 speed wheel and the chain works with 9 speed chainsets and the rear mech is the same.

8speed - chain and cassette easily 'lasted' a year

9speed - chain and cassette barely 'lasted' a year

You see I never really get this - I never noticed any difference in life between 7, 8 or 9 speed despite all the doom mongers at each step up.

10 speed also seems to wear absolutely fine on cx bikes that have been running it for a few years now.

My thinking on this was along the lines of ahwiles above - another cog means a greater need to have your rear mech set-up perfectly & provides presumably less tolerance in the system for cable wear/stick, sluggish shifting when muddy etc.
Will the chain & cassettes be thinner? If so, will they wear quicker?

If your terrain changes rapidly, isn't it ergonomically better to shift thru 3 ratios instead of 10?
And with 2x10 won't you have to pay more attention to your shifter window?

With 2x10 or 2x9 you can pay less attention to what gear combination you're in as they're all useable (though ideally you may not want to use the granny and the smallest sprockets for chain tension reasons)

No, no, no thanks. Got 10sp on the road bikes, don't want it on the mountain bikes. First, there are trails round here that I wouldn't be able to ride up without my granny ring and second, it will clog with mud worse than 9sp does now.

I hate this because they stop making high end components for the old speed so if you want nice stuff on your bike you have to swap to the new speed.

10 speed also seems to wear absolutely fine on cx bikes that have been running it for a few years now.

Well Ceels's 10-speed CX bike just needed a new chain a year down the line, which was £35 as opposed to £15, and broke in multiple places after less than 100 miles. Admittedly it seems like it was a bad batch, but from my attempts at indexing her bike, 10-speed seems significantly more temperamental than 9-speed.

For fettlers and racers, 10-speed could be a great thing. For most people who just ride their bikes and tend to have slightly dirty cables, wobbly freehubs, or any of the other things that ye olde 7-speed set-ups used to shrug off, 10-speed will wear out sooner and add to the amount of time you spend grovelling around in the shed. 🙂

This thread is full of all the same moans that were applied to 8 and 9 speed all those years ago. None of which, IME are true.

Like clubber, I've noticed no real difference in the wear of 8 or 9 speed gear and the mud clearance and clogging is just like with clipless pedals - vastly overstated.

Admittedly it seems like it was a bad batch, but from my attempts at indexing her bike, 10-speed seems significantly more temperamental than 9-speed.

Initially had problems with the 10 speed set up on my road bike and like you I cited it's temperamental nature, then I learned to set it properly and have had zero problems since. 😉

Like clubber, I've noticed no real difference in the wear of 8 or 9 speed gear and the mud clearance and clogging is just like with clipless pedals - vastly overstated.

What part is supposed to get clogged in mud? Being a regular rider in the Bristol shitfest clogged gears has never been a problem on my 9 speed setup and I use a 10 speed chain.

Get back in the knife drawer Miss Sharp.

Well, since its never happened to me I'm not fully sure, but its one of the things always sited by the 'change is bad' mob.

I suppose they mean the ever reducing space between cogs.

I suppose they mean the ever reducing space between cogs.

Nope never been an issue for me as I recall.

Its only needed for racers/downhillers/roadies (delete as applicable). All the same was said about:

indexed gears front, back
7, 8, 9 speed
suspension front, back
disks

You can bet that in a few years time you will all be running 10 speed.

I think 1x10 + chainguide on the big bike would be good

And I'd quite like a 2x10 on the 'light' bike

WE FEAR CHANGE

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And I'd quite like a 2x10 on the 'light' bike

Me too, I'd upgrade like a shot when my last 9 speed cassette died as long as it didn't mean a new rear hub, I presume like the road equivalent it will just need a spacer on the freehub.

Don't confuse novelty with innovation kimbers

Meh...I'd rather wait for the 3 speed hammerschmidt, I think changing gears when stationary would be a better improvement

My first ever bike was a 10 speed - an Apollo racer from Halfords in 1988...

IMO the best thing about ten speed is that it will facilitate much more usable single front-ring setups.

I am waiting for all the hardly used 9spd stuff to appear on the classifieds - I should be able to pick up enough to keep me going for years

if they drop the granny ring, reduce the q factor to me that is a step forward.

Most chain snapping issues are at the front. Chainsuck is at the front. Moving to a 2x9 is a compromise as you loose a little of the gear range over 3x9, moving to 2x10 eliminates that problem. 2 chainrings mean less shifting and thus less issues and with a 11-36 cassette you have the same range.

2 chainrings mean less shifting

It means more shifting on the rear don't it?

it does, but rear shifts never load the chain as much as front shifts and tend not to result in chainsuck or broken chains.

I've snapped 3 chains since Dec. I'm worried 10 speed chains will be lighter and weaker. I'm even debating going 8 speed at the moment!

I'm worried 10 speed chains will be lighter and weaker

They are lighter, they are not weaker unless they are made by SRAM in which case they are regardless of speed, I've been running Shimano and KMC 10 speed chains on my MTB without any problems at all.

Aye but are you a 17st fat knacker who likes to get up on the pedals and hoon it up hills to try and embarrass the young whippets? My gut can't take many more stem imprints or my shins anymore chainring slice ups which have resulted from said gut/stem interfaces!

10 Speed works fine on cross and racing that is far muddier an experience that mountain biking. Cleaning the cassette takes more effort than 9 though.
Have any of these people going on about how it's going to last two seconds actually done any tests on it? 10 speed might well end up running with a better chainline.

Snapped chains - are they all from the same manufacturer? All due respect, but I think pros will be putting out far more watts than you, so if you're constantly snapping chains then something is wrong and it's not to do with how many ratios your bike has.

Not wishing to sound like a troll, but does anyone (other than racers I guess) actually want/need 10 speed? Serious question, maybe I'm missing something here?

no we don't. imo suntour or microshift would do well to expand their market by making a high quality (say xt level) 8speed set up. they could even adopt a 'standard' for the width of the freehub (maybe a hope singlespeed size or hadley etc) then hub manufactureres could make there singlr speed freehubs to that size etc. etc.

it'll never happed but it's nice to dream.

mountain bikes are often compared with rally cars - there is a reason most cars on the road and highly tuned race machines - how come all of our bikes are supposed to be?

They are lighter, they are not weaker

The side-plates are thinner so for a given price point, the chain will be weaker. I've had very few problems with cheap 7 or 9-speed chains, but an entire batch of 10-speed Ultegra chains turned out to be duff recently as the side plates were too brittle - have a google for it.

And, as stated above, has anyone seen the prices for 10-speed road chains? 😯

Snapped chains - are they all from the same manufacturer? All due respect, but I think pros will be putting out far more watts than you, so if you're constantly snapping chains then something is wrong and it's not to do with how many ratios your bike has.

Watts have got cock all to do with the breaking strain of a chain. Physics FAIL! Although yer man Absolon would probably finish a race in half the time it took me at half the mass so the watts would be similar.

No they're not all the same manufacturer. Yes there's something wrong, they're not up to the job that I put them through and thanks I'll just ignore the ratios comment. Maybe you could run a master class on how to change gear?

It's all side plates that have broken for me recently. I reckon it's all to do with ice on the chainrings and cassettes forcing the plates apart. I may yet add to my total of 40 snowy rides this winter but to be honest I've had enough now. Mind you some of these hills are going to have it into June!

Really interested to see this news. Question is, do we think that this is a genuine move that will take off, or a tentative move that will look quite amusing in a couple of years' time

"I reckon it's all to do with ice on the chainrings and cassettes forcing the plates apart"

+1, or caused by grit having a similar effect. 3 snapages this winter - two links and one power-link, 0 on the summer. Chain is getting a bit short now, but it doesn't flap about much!

And, as stated above, has anyone seen the prices for 10-speed road chains?

Two wweks ago I paid £18 for a KMC X10 (Slightly lighter than Dura Ace / XTR) at at Merlin.

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/bicycle-chains/kmc-x10-chain.html ]Perfectly reasonable price for a chain IMO.[/url]

[i]it will clog with mud worse than 9sp does[/i]

Not in my [b]experience[/b] with XX, rear cassette holds very little crud due to there being so little to adhere to/clog.

I'm liking 2x10 not from a race point of view but from an everyday riding one. Less shifts up front, plenty of gear options in a more straightforward package, no need to constantly fettle, no sloppy shifting etc etc.

I'd say given the level of investment by both Sram and Shimano it's here to stay....

Can I just point out that broken chains is very unlikely to be anything to do with the width of the side plates - you won't be breaking those unless there's a manufacturing fault (as was with a bunch of 8 speed chains several years ago now).

My wife's thoughts-

" well why don't you just have on the gears that you use the most and take the others off, then you wouldn't need all these gears"

I laughed at her at first, then I thought....

That'll be the uber expensive, uber wastefully made XX cassette then Dave?! Hope the X& is as good then.
Do you not miss being able to quickly switch between 3 big ratio jumps on the front?

Perfectly reasonable price for a chain IMO.

And a Yaban 10-speed chain is a tenner on CRC. Nevertheless it does seem that the going rate for a decent 10-speed road chain is somewhere around thirty quid, as opposed to fifteen or twenty.

And a Yaban 10-speed chain is a tenner on CRC. Nevertheless it does seem that the going rate for a decent 10-speed road chain is somewhere around thirty quid, as opposed to fifteen or twenty.

I don't see your point, KMC make chains for Shimano, the quality is comparative if not better, the X9 and X10 range have a very good reputation, If you really must have SRAM or Shimano then yes your wallet may get raped.

Unless you're stuck in the dark ages and still running 9-speed? 🙂