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I've had hypothermia before where everything has gone horribly wrong. It isnt an upleasant experience. Thankfully I had good mates with me who knew exactly what they were doing.
you're right Poly, things can so easily go tits up. But isn't it importannt to be well prepared? Things can easily go wrong. It sounds like it's a good job couldawouldashoulda was there.
Reckon you did the right thing op. I think most people at a trail centre bring tools they need to do trail side repairs, but I wonder how many bring a really good first aid kit and know how to use it
Yep I always ride with Space blanket(tinfoily stuff) hand warmers and general bandages etc.
Because you never know when it might be you, or as the OP found,someone else!
Thumbs up to couldashouldawoulda 😀
Then someone comes along who seems to be offering to help get you home with a 'slow' ride - but perhaps his slow is still faster than you can manage in your current state and so you come off a lot.
That's lots of good points but I staid well behind, no rush etc.
Overall I'm going to add up poly's & druid's point about one crash leads to the "fear" multiplied by the cold & lack of energy.
Oh and kevevs, in the nicest way possible, my question wasnt about being prepared.
I and the other party had all the gear, my question is about the head game. For some reason an expeirenced outdoors person shut down. All the gear in the world doesnt help with that.
let more air out their tyres 😉
Just about to post the same supafly.
It's an interesting one isn't it? Just hope I don't get into that state, and if I do there's someone who knows how to handle it.
Good for you.
But you're still not helping! 😉
what would you like me to say? bloke out on bike in freezing conditions, you helped him out. well done. That's great. But from what you've said and how I read it. It just sounds like the guy should've stayed at home.
I'd have to agree with the chap at the bottom of page one who suggested a mild concussion. Seen just such behaviour from skiers and cyclists who've banged their bonces hard. Just for the record, my autocorrect tried to write, "banged their nonces". :-0
Some people just get frightened when they're away from home or car and it's getting dark. If they are cold and hungry it happens quicker. If they are small in size they will have less in reserve and less bulk means even more vulnerable to cold.
I had a fall coming down icy snow in Glencoe once, I self-arrested but skinned my knuckles badly and was shocked. The rest of the party had naffed off thinking I was OK. Walking back down I was un-coordinated and clumsy and I fell several times again, once in a very dangerous place where I nearly went off the path and down frozen snow into a burn in a deep ravine. I just remember being cold, hungry, tired and completely disorientated.
(Following another incident that week on the Aonach Eagach where the rest of them naffed off and left me with a frightened, inexperienced girl with bendy boots and no head torch to find our way down in the dark and the snow I realised they were a shite climbing club and didn't go with them again.)
Concussion, but also a good chance of low blood sugar. I work with a few diabetics and low blood sugar sends em mental. Tends also to become more agressive/irratable with low bloods. Did the lad seem angry or just nervous?
Have a read of this [url= http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/11/22/hypothermia-can-kill-how-to-spot-it-treat-it-and-prevent-it ]article on hypothermia[/url] . Exercise delays the onset of the early signs while the core is cooling dangerously. When you stop it gets bad really quickly.
Well done OP on helping someone out.
I was out for a night ride last week. It was a bit icy and I didn't feel particularly confident as I'm still sore from a fall a few weeks back, but was keeping fairly relaxed and letting the bike ride over the skippy bits. Then I hit a patch like glass and went down hard on my right hip. It was surprising how much harder it was to keep it smooth and upright after the fall. Actually it would probably have been even worse if anybody else had been there. It's bad enough mincing down a trail without being watched. As it was I dropped the saddle and rode with both feet down until I got to a bit that I could convince myself wasn't so bad.
OP: nice one for helping them out.
Doesn't matter what their experience level was, or their preparations were like, they needed some assisting, so well done.
This thread has reminded me that I needed to get a couple of space blankets for the bike rucksack, at £1 a throw on ebay, there's no reason to not carry them.
You did the right thing. End of.
Space blankets are rubbish, they tear easily and provide minimal weather protection. Find yourself a lightweight survival bag or, if you're prepared to compromise and carry extra weight, a Blizzard bag or jacket.
Fwiw, I carry an[url= http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/amk_heatsheets_emergency_bivvy_sleeping_bag.html ] Adventure Medical Kit SOL[/url] ultra-lightweight survival bag - tiny, light at around 100g and pretty much untearable and because it's a bag, it will actually shelter you with some degree of effectiveness.
I also, in winter conditions, carry a lightweight PrimaLoft-filled jacket, a [url= http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/synthetic-fill/xenon-jacket.html ]Rab Xenon[/url], and a woolly hat because, frankly, if you crash out on your own in sub-zero conditions and rely on a flimsy space blanket and your normal riding gear to keep you alive, you're in for a very unpleasant surprise.
It's not cheap kit, but that's stuff that works for you and overall it weighs around 400g or so, about a pound in your British money, and takes up surprisingly little space. I ride a fair bit on my own, at night, in winter, and it might give me a fighting chance of surviving a night out if needed, albeit a very uncomfortable one.
I've also occasionally ridden in the Xenon with temperatures at minus 10? or less as the sun went down.
Anyway, I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but at a very basic level, I'd always go for some sort of survival bag rather than a blanket. Space blankets have a bad reputation for shredding in wind and the blanket format gives you minimal protection, why do you think they're so cheap? It always baffled me that the organisers of the Kielder 100 insisted in competitors carrying a near useless space blanket as a condition of participation. Why not insist, as the Three Peaks people do, that you carry a survival bag that might actually be useful to you.
Oh, and more generally people get disorientated and aren't necessarily as experienced or capable as they might appear. There seem to be quite a few mountain bikers out there who don't have a general outdoorsy sort of background, so won't necessarily have the experience or resilience to cope with nasty conditions.
I don't think its that uncommon. 2 winters ago I was out in really bad conditions, sheet ice every where, really hard to stay upright.
I had a couple of crashes and after that I was a complete state, tense wobbly and on the verge of crashing and falling pretty much the whole ride. It was not a nice experience, and this was on a bright morning and I wasn't riding alone.
Bad condtions, combined with fading light plus lack of confidence and its pretty easy to lose your head.
Well don to the OP for helping out
It always baffled me that the organisers of the Kielder 100 insisted in competitors carrying a near useless space blanket as a condition of participation. Why not insist, as the Three Peaks people do, that you carry a survival bag that might actually be useful to you.
Isn't it because with survival bags etc, people are tempted to get in them and lie down and hope for people to get them, whereas with a space blanket, you're more likely to bung it over your shoulders and try to walk out, which is usually the best option?
Ages back when I last did survival stuff, we were told that if we carried orange survival bags to cut a couple of foot holes in the bottom so you could wear it and walk, as it was almost always better to attempt a walk out than to stop and get cold. That was also why they said don't take a fancy bivvy bag as your survival bag - unless you're in conditions where stopping is sensible (extreme snow conditions, up big mountains etc.), having a cheap orange bag that you can cut foot holes in without worrying about the cost makes you more likely to keep moving and get out safely, whereas cutting up your £100 bivvy bag so you can walk in it is more of a thing to do.
Space blankets have a bad reputation for shredding in wind and the blanket format gives you minimal protection,
yep. you can get hoody shape ones which i reckon might be a bit better.
joemarshall - MemberIt always baffled me that the organisers of the Kielder 100 insisted in competitors carrying a near useless space blanket as a condition of participation. Why not insist, as the Three Peaks people do, that you carry a survival bag that might actually be useful to you.
Isn't it because with survival bags etc, people are tempted to get in them and lie down and hope for people to get them, whereas with a space blanket, you're more likely to bung it over your shoulders and try to walk out, which is usually the best option?
Ages back when I last did survival stuff, we were told that if we carried orange survival bags to cut a couple of foot holes in the bottom so you could wear it and walk, as it was almost always better to attempt a walk out than to stop and get cold. That was also why they said don't take a fancy bivvy bag as your survival bag - unless you're in conditions where stopping is sensible (extreme snow conditions, up big mountains etc.), having a cheap orange bag that you can cut foot holes in without worrying about the cost makes you more likely to keep moving and get out safely, whereas cutting up your £100 bivvy bag so you can walk in it is more of a thing to do.
I figure on a bike that if I'm capable of moving I won't be using a survival bag, that's why I have a shell, a hat, spare insulation. My choice is to carry something lightweight that might keep me alive if I can't move.
The lightweight emergency bag I carry isn't a £100 bivvy, it's a mummy-shaped, super light, but really tough plasticised semi-metallic thing.
Incidentally, a fair proportion of people who die from exposure die because they keep moving instead of hunkering down and using the emergency equipment they have with them. Every situation's different, but I can't see any reason to carry a flimsy space blanket that's going to provide very little benefit either stopped or on the move, let alone carry one so I have no option but to keep moving. That, without being stupid about it, is a bit daft, no?
If you want a wearable emergency thing, have a look at the [url= http://www.blizzardsurvival.com/product.php/101/blizzard-survival-jacket ]Blizzard Survival Jacket[/url] which might actually work and provides insulation too. Much better solution that cutting leg holes in a mahoosive orange placcy bag.
Best group option is a communal Blokka bag or similar survival shelter so you can pool warmth.
But anyway, it's all about the best option for the specific scenario. One of the big problems with these situations is that people who are lost and scared and going hypothermic are also often disorientated and bad at making rational decisions. Been there, done that, no nice.
Am I alone in carrying a firelighter and a box of matches? Most of my rides are on forestry commission land and if I have to spend a night out there I want to be able to make a fire.
The OP got things nearly right, but still wasn't great.
Its quite a common reaction for people who are new at skill/sport etc. Obviously ther person must have been fairly new at mountain biking and the first fall must have scared them, then the effect of cold weather, getting dark just compounds things. Before you know it they are a nervous wreck, and incapable of doing pretty much anything.
It was right to try and get them back on the bike to start with, but the wrong thing after they started falling off again/had no control. Should have walked/jogged out with the bike or leaving it behind.
Quite a common thing when teaching people to ski. The last thing to do was to make them get up and do it again if you could see they were that far gone.
Am I alone in carrying a firelighter and a box of matches?
No, I carry soome nice dry trees with me too 🙂
I've suffered from Moderate hypothermia and the best thing you can do is get them £%CKing moving off the hill.
I know all I wanted to do was rest and sit down my speech was slurred and as I look back now I was in the poo if I had been on my own I may not have made it. If you notice slurred speech ever the person your speaking to is in serious trouble and so help them out!
Well done OP 🙂
Full marks to the OP for helping out and seeing them off the hill!
Well done CWS.
You say that they were experienced but that they were half your age, you're not THAT old! 🙂
They may well have lots of experience in nice warm good conditions but you only gain real experience when the shit hits the fan and you realise that the outcome might not be rosey.
Hopefully they learnt a lesson and fare better next time.....there's always a next time 😆
I've suffered from Moderate hypothermia and the best thing you can do is get them £%CKing moving off the hill.
Thing is, that's not always true. It's about making a judgment on the situation because in some conditions that would kill them.
Sometimes, if you do have an emergency shelter, you're better off stopping, hunkering down, sharing body heat, food etc and calling mountain rescue. Sometimes it makes sense to get them off the hills, sometimes it doesn't.
But an awful lot of mountain bikers don't carry the kit that would give them the option of stopping, so there's no real choice.
That's my take anyway.
Glad to see some debate on the keep moving front. Movement doesn't necessarliy make you warmer.
I think the keep moving mentatlity leads to problems. Almost everyon picked up buy Mountain Rescue with Hypothermia has additional clothing with them that they haven't put on
It seems common for mountain bikers to not being carrying enough warm kit. I've haf to stop and lend clothes to an imobilised mountain biker, on quite a pleasant day as well.
CWS I think you did a great job. No matter how experienced or well prepared sometimes things don't go according to plan. The last thing any of us would want is to ignore someone in distress and then read the following day of a bad outcome and then wrestle with our conscience thinking what we could have done.
Wow - thanks for the comments guys - and the flattery Paul!
I've learned a bit from this thread!
Mainly:
1- The shutdown could happen me / my missus / anyone we're with some day.
2- After the first couple of crashes we should really have walked / jogged out. At least until they refocused.
3- No matter how bad things get - in my head I will never even think about asking for help / rescue or waiting for it. I want home, end of. I must warn my missus.
4- Energy boost and more layers.
Well done couldashouldawoulda both helping somebody out and then seeking to understand what you might have done differently is all good.
I did an avalanche awareness course when out in Canada a few years ago. Our intention was to do some back country hiking so we thought it was a good idea. The instructor had a saying, "If you're not prepared to be out all night, you're not prepared". Used to poke fun at it, I have to say now though, it makes a lot of sense. One of the mates I did the course with has his own saying, "what's the first rule of safety? Safety first". He lives by these two rules as some sort of code.
Seems to have worked for him - ones to add to your list?
Well done CSW, without your help that might have ended badly. FWIW, it sounds a lot like hypothermia, maybe mixed with a concussion. Also shock does very odd things to people. Confusion, inability to do what they can do normally.
I'm fairly well experienced in lifesaving and life support. I'm not sure I would have done anything different. Maybe walked out over the worst obstacles, get some sugary energy in them, extra layers of clothes.
I carry a couple of the cheapo emergency blankets. Best bet if you are moving is to stuff them inside clothing. Your free to move then. Cheap and simple.