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all that matters is that your relative w/kg measured with the same protocol is improving and your HR is generally getting lower for a given power output.
Totally agree, but when you publicise your w/kg for others to compare with then you have to expect that people will question your number relatitve to their own, your results and known w/kg of other riders...
Yes of course- as Nath found out at the beginning of this thread with his Vortex power numbers 😆
Unless we all met up and rode the same Wattbike or something, quoting the figures from a regularly offset, strain gauge power meter seems perfectly legit to me.
I probably seem obtuse when I respond to TiReds logic about checking against Bikecalculator but aligning your PM to a theoretical algorithm is not the same as measuring what your body is outputting which is ultimately the point. As I say, a 10w loss from a dirty chain or a soft tyre could easily skew the data a long way- even Hillingdon isn't a lab 😉
I'm happy that my equipment is functioning fine.
There was no discrepancy from moving to the stages to the 4iiii.
Unless there was money (large) involved there would be no way I'd push myself in a race as much as I do on an FTP test. I have to cycle home!!
I'd believe the algorithm over a PM, but I am a Physicist by training 😉 . Each PM has it's own algorithm for estimating resistance change across a Wheatstone bridge/strain gauge plus rotational speed to find "power". The exceptions are Powercal and Powerpod.
even Hillingdon isn't a lab
You'd be surprised.
Fair play then nath. Please let me know when you're turning up to 2/3s in the South East so that I don't bother 😉
A crude but pretty good check of whether you've a genuinely high w/kg is Strava segment performance. 5w/kg should see you collecting KOMs without really trying. You can also check how your power output compares with other riders on specific segments. Obvs wind conditions etc can play a part but law of averages does kick in.
Unless there was money (large) involved there would be no way I'd push myself in a race as much as I do on an FTP test. I have to cycle home!!
Why not ?
TiRed-But still- the theoretical algorithm is making assumptions about lots of tiny details that added together, could be a long way out today and even further out tomorrow.
At least the algorithm computing the results from the strain gauges is consistent.
I'm happy that my equipment is functioning fine.There was no discrepancy from moving to the stages to the 4iiii.
Unless there was money (large) involved there would be no way I'd push myself in a race as much as I do on an FTP test. I have to cycle home!!
8)
Interesting that you find you can push more on the turbo than in a race.
Heat accumulation and boredom does me in every time on a turbo.
Being shouted at in a break or seeing your avg mph close to 30 on a 10m TT however..
For ftp testing, I agree with Nath. On a public road like a TT, it's not safe to go as deep as you can when all you have to do is stop pedalling like on the Turbo.
Likewise in a race, you need to safely get out of the way on the finishing straight and ride or drive home soon after- not conducive to finding the very edge of performance.
I use Sufferfest and find that ample distraction for the test. Any of the Zwift fans reading this will know you can push much harder on the Turbo if you have the right motivation.
Turbos don't count. And it not constant power you want to look at its Lap Power. That's what I use.
Interesting that. It's just measuring something different. Turbo testing and you're likely at optimal cadence and putting out a very even effort. Outdoors your power is much more variable with gear changes, wind, traffic, corners, roundabouts, uneven roads. For a hard effort outdoors I find that to get X avg power I typically need to be riding at X + 15W (or there abouts.) So really it's more like a hard over/under session. Which might be ok, but it is a different thing. So for me, if I want to average, say, 300W outdoors it's harder than on the turbo as I'm mostly riding at around 315W, with efforts way over for accelerations. Zwift and a controlled turbo makes indoors a bit more realistic but it's still nowhere near being the equivalent of outdoors.
Partly for those reasons I tend not to get too hung up on power targets when riding outdoors, and use a mix of power, HR, and a bit of judgement on RPE. For me I think trying to ride to power outdoors is actually a bit detrimental, increasingly just try and ride quickly rather than try and chase some power average as that's what I need to be doing when racing.
As an example, for a 10 mile TT I could ride to a power target or try and ride the course quickly. Riding to power will typically give a higher avg power but a slower overall time. And at the end of a race there aren't any prizes for highest avg power 😉
Which value you use as FTP (indoor or outdoor) I don't think matters much as long as you're aware that it's different and plan around it. You could argue that outdoors is more significant as that's where you're racing. Or you could argue that indoors is more significant as it represents some ideal steady state max.
The flip side of what you are saying there though MrBlobby, and the reason it's hard to get the average power outdoors- is rest. Micro rests as the bike accelerates under gravity and takes some torque away from your legs.
Indoors- there's none. Well some but it instantly stings you again.
Which was Trainerroads original USP of course- very pure and concentrated stress.
Also, there's nothing to stop you FTP testing on a rolling course in Zwift on the TT (no draft) bike. That would be similar to doing it around Hillingdon.
I'd argue too that indoor and outdoor FTP's don't have to be different- they just used to be because indoor trainer set-ups were ruuubbbisssshhhh 🙂
With a smart trainer and all the fans, you have the best location for consistent testing.
The flip side of what you are saying there though MrBlobby, and the reason it's hard to get the average power outdoors is rest. Micro rests as the bike accelerates under gravity and takes some torque away from your legs.
Well yes, I thought that obvious 😉 Not that, for example, 5 seconds of not pedalling going round a roundabout actually feels much like a rest, and then you need to get back on the power hard to get your speed back up. It's like a very random over/under session.
I'd argue too that indoor and outdoor FTP's don't have to be different-
Depends how you define it. FTP is typically used to refer to your steady state max for 60 minutes. If you're riding outdoors it's usually not steady state. I don't think it matters really as long as you're consistent about it and take it in to consideration in application.
Though obviously for forum willy waving you'll want to use the largest value of the two 😀
But more subtly than the big turn too- every time you hit negative gradient until your legs catch up. That's why you have to target 315 because you'll often be 'resting' at 285 without realising it 😉
But more subtly than the big turn too- every time you hit negative gradient until your legs catch up. That's why you have to target 315 because you'll often be 'resting' at 285 without realising it
Yup, same with gear changes, gusts of wind, mild draft from a passing car, etc. Might not be that noticeable until you're trying to ride at the limit. And if you're attempting to ride to a power target it can result in a frustratingly ridiculous power chasing effort 🙂
None of my outdoor rides really earn me any KOMs - think I have 4? lol
I like this one the best, it's not even a KOM ha, 13th out of 50,000 people 😆 https://www.strava.com/segments/5525410
I guess one of the reasons I don't have a pile of KOMs is I'm never at full pace - if I'm outdoors and not racing then it's a Z1/Z2 work. Also I've got 50k other people to contend with 😆
Segments under a minute are prone to being skewed by slight errors in GPS. Under 30s and it's a bit of a lottery.
Power for lap times at hillingdon without drafting are in excellent agreement with predictions. I also use lap heart rate too and again find a good relationship.
My FTP is my 25 mile TT or one hr circuit race power (provided I was gunning I and not sitting in).
Just the action of being in a race is enough for me to put down extra watts.
Basically anything reproducible is good enough for training. A like MrB, I use time, heart rate and power for pacing.
I guess one of the reasons I don't have a pile of KOMs is I'm never at full pace - if I'm outdoors and not racing then it's a Z1/Z2 work.
Yep that's probably it.
You should just get out racing again, hone your racecraft and you'll probably be able to get on a team and get a small level of sponsorship.
You should just get out racing again, hone your racecraft and you'll probably be able to get on a team and get a small level of sponsorship.
Im a bit bemused why he's not personally. To do all this training and speed just seems a bit wasted without putting it into a race or 5.
Im a bit bemused why he's not personally. To do all this training and speed just seems a bit wasted without putting it into a race or 5.
Me too, esp since the whole point of this is to try road racing. Also the idea of choosing to ride indoors in July and August just seems a bit bonkers
@mtbtomo - Had a look at your strava from the race and we had very similar weighted average power (my NP for the race was 239W for 2hr20). Shows you what difference racecraft can make
I'll be racing on 12th, 19th and 26th August - these are my target races.
I'm already sponsored (they've been providing me with nutrition and bits of kit) - hopefully I'll be out in their kit soon (they're rebranding) 😛
Me too, esp since the whole point of this is to try road racing.
Well I guess he's done what he intended, he's tried road racing. I know quite a few riders who try racing, get their 3rd cat, then don't really do much after that. Though I don't think that'll be Nath.
Also the idea of choosing to ride indoors in July and August just seems a bit bonkers
Is a bit curious, though easy to get sucked into it when following a structured plan, even though it's often to the detriment of outdoor riding.
Edit...
I'll be racing on 12th, 19th and 26th August - these are my target races.
😀
Which ones are those?
[url= https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/156410/BC-West-Thames-Saturday-Round-1 ]BC West Thames Saturday Round 1[/url]
[url= https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/156411/BC-West-Thames-Saturday-Round-2 ]BC West Thames Saturday Round 2[/url]
[url= https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/156412/BC-West-Thames-Saturday-Round-3 ]BC West Thames Saturday Round 3[/url]
Regarding indoor/outdoor, I live in London - cycling is crap for the first/return 30-45 mins.
Outdoors: Mon-Fri commuting (18 miles per day) + Long rides on Saturday & Sunday
Indoors: Tues 345w for 40 mins, Thurs/Fri are sprint drills - but I sometimes ditch the Friday one in favour of traffic light sprinting on the commute home.
So the VAST majority of my cycling is outside, it's just hard to do the Tues night one outdoors!!
Well I guess he's done what he intended, he's tried road racing. I know quite a few riders who try racing, get their 3rd cat, then don't really do much after that. Though I don't think that'll be Nath.
A fair point
@nathb - Good to hear 😀 reckon you should look at doing a road racce or to before the end of the season; if nothing else you'll learn a lot about position/race awareness
Awesome! I'd do the 3/4 and be targeting the league win if I was you!
Seriously at 5w/kg you should be able to just ride around the outside of the pack... sod racecraft.
Regarding indoor/outdoor, I live in London - cycling is crap for the first/return 30-45 mins.
You need to move then, Staffordshire's nice 🙂
Southern Yeti, with respect, MrBlobby has 5w/kg and only has 1 Cat 4 point. Ok so he's doing a bit of testing and getting results there but he's also not getting the stick Nath seems to be attracting lol.
Training is motivating and engaging in its own right!
MrBlobbys team mate, Mr Cartwright is partial to a bit of indoor based training himself and I don't think anyone would call him out for it 😆
Apologies, I'm not intending to give him stick.
I just have a sense of what I could do with 5w/kg and know that none of the Cat 2's I ride with have an FTP that high.
Hopefully that's encouragement to go out and take apart the 3/4 at Hillingdon!
All or most of you are familiar enough with the Training Bible to know that not having access to the right sorts of roads is even mentioned as being a limiter to people's potential. Training indoors eliminates that limiter and in fact provides the perfect way to apply the training stress needed to promote continuous gradual improvement.
That Nath is doing so with such focus and discipline is a great credit to him and I can't wait to see how far it goes 🙂
Me too Southern Yeti 😆
I'm heading there this evening with my paltry 3.7 to see where that gets me 😀
Thanks crosshair, I only came out that day to play with you and Nath 🙂 Road racing not my focus at all.
Regarding the not racing thing, from racing TT the past few seasons I have learnt that you get better by racing, and that the season really isn't that long.
If that's Tim Cartwright... having seen him put a minute into the field at a recent 10... does anyone know his w/kg?
It was listed as 5 for CVR. 385w @ 77 kg
I think he's at about 400W off around 76kg.
Edit... and he can put that out in position which is even more impressive.
I guess those are the sort of numbers you should expect from a formidable TTer.
Sorry for using you as an example MrB- I know you can handle the heat 😉
You probably had a higher ftp/kg than Nath that day and yet didn't beat him 😉
Regarding the not racing thing, from racing TT the past few seasons I have learnt that you get better by racing, and that the season really isn't that long.
For sure.
TT is a little easier to dip in and out of though. With mass-start racing, there is such a huge part of the race that is dependent on factors outside of one's own performance. With TTs, your results are significantly more affected by how you ride yourself. Setting a PB in a target race may be scuppered by windy conditions, but where you place in the field should not change too much.
My clubmate has an FTP of 4.9 W/kg at 78 kg. He's currently top 10 nationally in TT at 25 and 50, and top 20 at 100. And a vet 😀
Crosshair, Nath was racing, I was spectating 😉
(By which I mean, to find myself in a small group going into the last lap I didn't really have a clue what to do, while Nath new exactly what he wanted to do. And he has a much much better sprint that i have!)
My clubmate has an FTP of 4.9 W/kg at 78 kg.
In TT it's all about the CdA and the watts. w/kg largely irrelevant. You just need to be up near 400W and have put a lot of work into your CdA.
http://worldcup.cycligentrankings.com/blog/racer-spotlight-tim-cartwright-2/
You old dinosaurs will all be Zwift racing this winter 😆
In addendum - I've learnt this myself over the last few years as I basically stopped road racing after the 2nd was born. I just can't get away to consistently do road races any more. I've taken to doing TTs in groups of 2/3 at a couple of places in the year (plus a few Merckx-style club 10s), and then doing a bunch of HCs at the end.
In TT it's all about the CdA and the watts
Yup, and his is tiny 😉 Watts/CdA is probably a better measure. I'm working on mine, and pretty pleased with the position now. Which is good, 'cos Watts is not going anywhere fast 😆 (except downwards)
@jd77, re. power, that's interesting, I thought because I didn't calibrate it was way out (too low), but maybe it wasn't too far out - I just shouldn't have struggled with cramp at ~240w weighted, but then it was warm and I'd had a few drinks the night before. What power meter do you use?
Does everyone on this thread live like a nun and eat/drink nothing but puritan stuff?? 😉 Seems I need to to have anything vaguely resembling a good race day 🙁