[Closed] So I want to try road racing + build a bike specifically for this

Will do, but there's no hiding on the hill when the gradient pitches up to 15% in places

tomvet, first road race?
Just go and enjoy it. Work out which wheels you trust to follow and which wheels you don't... then just buzz of the speed and adrenaline until you finish or you've had enough.
Check out the race briefing for rules on handing up bottles, but at 45 miles you're best off just carrying 2 from the outset, should be plenty. Taking bottles from a stationary person is more difficult than you think!
But back to my opening point... go and have fun!

Good news!

I've just done a crazy competition race on Zwift and so far no knee pain and generally felt a lot more comfortable!

In fact I've just got a new FTP of 316W (4.51w/kg) up from 315W haha.
30 min = 318w
20 min = 332w
15 min = 334w
10 min = 345w

Good luck Tom. You won't need more than two bottles. I assume that here is neutral service too, but I always take a tube and co2. For the hill, try and get near the front if you aren't a climber. Expect to drop back, and hold on at the top. Repeat.

The circuit will only have left hand turns. If you have accredited marshals then the road is closed. Don't go too far over onto the other side of the road, a car may be waiting! You may also have National Escort Group moto riders. These guys are super and will ride ahead to close down hazards and junctions for you.

Don't overtake the lead car. Don't drop litter. Don't go over a solid white line. All three will DQ you. Move up through the bunch if you can, not on the wrong side of the road. Stay out of the gutter.

I'm probably late to the party with this...

[img] [/img]

But it's a pretty useful tool for comparing where you are verses others when you've got a power meter. >4.5 w/kg is solid and more than enough to cut it at Cat2 if you're 'race craft' is even half there.

Yeah I've seen that before.

I'm going to be working on Z2 and 5s-4min power now I think the base is semi-okay.

>4.5 w/kg is solid and more than enough to cut it at Cat2 if you're 'race craft' is even half there.

FWIW I think things like those numbers kind of get you a seat at the table. Getting a result is far more down to race craft, experience, ability to recover from efforts, knowing how best to use what you've got to get a result. Oh and a good sprint! You can get results with a lot less.

And also FWIW, for most UK racing (and certainly crits) I think outright watts (or W/CdA) is of more relevance than w/kg. You might be 4.5 w/kg but if you're 60kg there's no way you're riding away from even a cat 4 pack on a flat circuit.

I'm probably late to the party with this...

You might be 4.5 w/kg but if you're 60kg there's no way you're riding away from even a cat 4 pack.

Very true and agree with fifeandy.

My only experience is from a year of racing last year going from Cat4 to Cat2... my power numbers sit in the Cat2 banding for all but 1 min power.

Seconded. I'm with fifeandy - 67 kg, 4.5 W/kg, not a lot more for shorter efforts! By the time you are scoring points in a 70-rider Cat 4 race at Hillingdon, you'll have no trouble staying in an E123 race.

The US system has Cat 5 for beginners, with Coach-sign off after 10 races. I like this idea; show you can race safely rather than score 12 points. It used to be 10, but now you must race at least twice to be a third cat.

All of which should hopefully make my 3.3w/kg point all the sweeter when I finally get it 🙂

By the time you are scoring points in a 70-rider Cat 4 race at Hillingdon, you'll have no trouble staying in an E123 race

Unless it's a Nat B 😀

There is a difference between "staying with" and racing 😀 I think Hillingdon GP is the only Nat B on that circuit - 80 laps.

Ahhh sorry, I didn't realise you were just talking E123 at Hillingdon!

Tuseday's Thruxton results are out now for anyone that raced there.

My only experience is from a year of racing last year going from Cat4 to Cat2... my power numbers sit in the Cat2 banding for all but 1 min power.

Good work there. I know some strong riders who've taken a long time to go from 3 to 2. Think if you really get stuck in, race a lot, and pick your races (i.e. 3's only or 3/4's for points) then it's certainly doable if you have the right attributes. Nathb could go from 4 to 2 this year if he did this.

I basically just raced a local road league with a couple of crits chucked in to make up the numbers.

My advantage over others was a background of racing 70.3 triathlons and the associated endurance that comes with it. No point in working on your 5 sec power if you can't maintain your FTP over a 25m TT, in my opinion.

if you can't maintain your FTP over a 25m TT, in my opinion.

Your FTP [b]is[/b] what you can maintain over a 25m TT 🙂

Yes, but how many people actually derive it like that... most riders I know have needed a fair bit of training to realise the FTP they achieve in a 20 min test over a full hour, and let's be honest... everyone quotes the factored 20 min test number.

Well yes, said before on this forum that it is a bit flawed and that everyone's power curve is different. So basing your FTP on some percentage of a shorter duration max, unless the percentage has been specifically determined for you, is a bit flawed. And then deriving your shorter duration effort levels as generic percentages of that value (like most workouts in TR or Zwift do) is a bit silly. For example, taking Cavendish and Froome and suggesting that their 1 minute interval training efforts should be based on the same percentage of their 60 MP would clearly be ridiculous.

2000 🙂

That is a good point Yeti. 95% of 20min power isn't even accurate for everyone.
For anyone strongly into Zwift of course, it's the in game method of choice and the one used to define the categories.

It is worth working on your 5s power if that's what's limiting you however. And it's also quicker to realise top end improvements than to drag up your Endurance.

Actually, predicted FTP using 95% of 20min power v Strava 60m power for the year would be a good discussion point 🙂

Mine are 297w calculated and 295w actual.

Glad that got mentioned about FTP. It is massively hard to actually do 1hour at 0.95x 20minute power. So 0.95x20 minute power is no longer really seen as representative of FTP. It's still a reasonable guide for training zones though. It's going to sound like a certain other forum if we go down this road ...

Glad that got mentioned about FTP. It is massively hard to actually do 1hour at 0.95x 20minute power. So 0.95x20 minute power is no longer really seen as representative of FTP.

... and for others it'll be bang on, and for others it won't be hard enough.

I don't have the same hunger for cat 2 as I did cat 3... at this moment in time.

My FTP and 1 hour time look to be bang on.

I'd like to work on getting my HR down a little...

I'd like to work on getting my HR down a little...

Curious, why?

Everyone around me seems to be 10bpm lower 😆

I'm thinking it'll leave more in the tank for a sprint?

What you actually want to do is raise your lactate threshold and probably improve your Pw:Hr.

I'd like to work on getting my HR down a little

I rode with a guy in the Alps, and his LTHR was ~140bpm, I struggle to keep under 140 getting to the end of the drive.

Surely lowering your HR relative to your zones at a given speed is every road racers goal??
(And why drafting is critical)

The number itself is unimportant but the lower the better in a bunch race so you can make the cut when the selection comes ??

[url= https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling/ ]This may be of interest - Aerobic Decoupling[/url]

Surely lowering your HR relative to your zones at a given speed is every road racers goal??

But isn't that just another way of saying "increasing the amount of work you can do for a given amount of effort", i.e. getting fitter. If you go from being able to sustain 300W for an hour to being able to sustain 400W for an hour, then it doesn't make any difference whatsoever if your new ability comes at a higher or lower heart rate than your old one.

(edited to add the quote for clarity)

It sounds a bit like really you're saying "it would be useful to be better at conserving energy through better racecraft", which is clearly a good idea. I would have thought that measuring one's success at working efficiently (i.e. racecraft, drafting) would best be achieved through looking at "how much power did it take to sit in the bunch before the sprint / breakaway?". Measuring one's improvements in fitness comes from some variation on "how much power can I deliver / sustain for n minutes?". Neither of those need any consideration of heart rate really.

Personally (and I really believe that all aspects of HR are very personal) I find that my HR is very variable in how it reacts to all sorts of things, and I totally buy into the notion that it's really a very substitute for power measurement in pretty much every scenario.

Gray- yes, better racecraft could give the same effect- even in a Zwift race.

And yes, by producing more watts at a lower HR, it would probably (but I don't think necessarily, depending on the profile of your power curve and training to date) push up your FTP- but not necessarily very much if proper Base/Z2 had been lacking from your training thus far.

But your HR is important (if not to the nearest Bpm) as it can tell you things your PM can't- like how well you've recovered after the previous lap's hill climb. In fact even RPE is important- as I realised at Thruxton the other day!

My HR is a highly variable and noisy measure of effort and recovery state. Way too many confounding factors for me to pay any attention to it in preference to power (for effort) and my own feelings (for recovery / ability to push on). Others may be more consistent, of course.

The way I see it, in terms of monitoring overall progress, there's essentially fitness and technique.

Each are multidimensional things. Fitness combines a full power curve and the ability to recover from repeated efforts and other stuff too. Technique could be subdivided into finer details like aerodynamic efficiency, biomechanics and racecraft, but my guess is that at this sort of level, with bunch riding, racecraft is the real biggy.

Primarily though, fitness is about how much work you can put out. HR data are interesting and related to fitness, and can inform certain aspects (coupling, fatigue etc) of performance and progress but I really thing that HR is secondary to other measures. If one year I can deliver 300W for an hour at 170bpm before collapsing in a heap, and the next year the best I can do is still 300W for an hour, but now at 160bpm, then who cares about the HR change? On the other hand, if this year I can deliver 330W for an hour, then I am faster. Doesn't matter what my HR is, as long as I'm not having a heart atack. 🙂

For aero efficiency and racecraft, it's all about how much power you're having to deliver in order to e.g. maintain your position. HR has very little do with that except to give you an imperfect reflection of how 'hard' it is for you to deliver that power.

I totally get what you're saying about recovery from short efforts though, and I agree to a point, but for me there is absolutely no way that I would look down at my Garmin then decide whether I had the legs to do something based on my HR rather than how I felt. YMMV of course, and I should stress that whilst I have ridden with HR an awful lot over the years, I have no road racing experience whatsoever!

Gray- the reason the HR change in your example is important, is that the bunch speed between the attacks isn't likely to change very much. So if that Zwift race with the same guys was re run tomorrow, chances are the effort required between the attacks is likely to remain the same. You aren't going to get fit enough to out-run them solo- this was as quick as Amateur racing on Zwift gets I would say. So what you NEED to do, is maintain your position within that bunch much more efficiently. And that means at a lower HR.

Same at Thruxton in fact. I'm not going to develop enough Watts and an aero enough position to ride off the front anytime soon so I need to find ways to ride at 25mph at the lowest possible HR.

TT, MTB and CX are different. You are generally talking about a race length effort and how well you apply it.

Crits and Zwift (never tried proper RR yet) are different- if the competition is evenly matched, it's all about making the cut when the all-out selections come. Whether that be a Hill, a last lap surge or a 300m sprint.

My FTP is always derived from a race. I don't do those hateful indoor 20 minute things! Will be doing another 25 on Sunday. Targeting 290-300 watts for a short 58 (lumpy great missenden course). Average HR for me will be about 167 bpm. I've had circuit races an average higher than this, but very seldom.

I also like to backcalculate power from established models for validation. My powerpod is now calibrated against bikecalculator. Sadly it provides the target. The effort part is something else 😉

CH knows what I'm trying to get at. Before I start I'll point out that I race on feel and follow what others are doing.

Last nights Zwift race was single handedly the most effort I have ever put into a race ever! It was essentially a 45 min FTP test - which actually lined up with my 20 min FTP results. The only effort that I can compare it to was the last 60s of my Abingdon debut at 555w for 8th! 😆

My FTP was set at 180-185bpm, I max out at 205.

Last night for the last 25% I was desperately trying to get my HR below 180 while maintaining contact with the group. I knew that if I could roll into the last KM with it below 180 I could mount a semi average sprint to the line.

The dream is being able to maintain my FTP but at 170bpm leaving those 35bpm in reserve for the final KM. Without sounding arrogant I'm sure I could sit in most bunches - but I'd potentially have nothing at the end.

Power for me at the moment is still a analysis tool for back on the computer/post race. My HR is something I understand more during a race to back up how I'm feeling, but I don't let it influence my decision making particularly chasing.

So the question is to I aim to become more efficient (lower HR) at 315w or aim to boost my ftp up to 330w - or is it the same thing?! Right now I feel like I've got the power curve of a TTer so it's interval time?!

That is the same thing Nath yes 🙂

If it was taking you FTHR to hang with the bunch then increasing your FTP is the only way to make that feel easier.

However, if there were times when it was way below that power (like 250ish watts) to hang with the bunch, then there is merit in trying to improve your power at the lower zones too.

The longer you spend in each zone- the better adapted you get at it. If all your training to date has been race intensity stuff +/- Threshold then adding some polarisation will almost definitely help if you keep your training hours similar.

So every hour you spend in Z2 not 3/4 will not only help your body run more efficiently but also give you more energy later in the week or whenever for a crisp interval session.

Maybe some under/over intervals would help recovery during a race?

It was time for an FTP test today! My weapon of choice for the past two tests was the Sufferfest Rubber Glove video on my Kickr Snap with the Stages reading the power.

I get so anxious about pacing now! With a plethora of Power data staring you in the face, you are under no illusion about what you've done so far and what you still need to do to hit your goal.

But what to aim for? Well, I watched something the other day that basically said, you cannot improve much more than 10% every 20 weeks.

With just 6 weeks since my last test where I managed 313w for the 20 mins and a good thorough block of training since then, I knew I'd be around 323w.

So off I went! I hunted around frantically for something to take my mind off of the effort! Look back at the screen and only 20 seconds have gone by! Surely it's time to press lap (I wanted to press every five minutes to check my pacing)? Nope- 2m20 😆 Power was bang on at 320w though.

In the end I did 8 lap presses and after 4 consistent ones they started trending downwards.
Minutes 15-17 were only 303w average. Shiiiit!

All to play for, I started ramping up the HR. I knew I could spend a minute out of the saddle, so I just stayed in a gear and cadence that I knew was ballpark 330w for the penultimate minute and then UPUPUPUPUP!
The final two minutes were 349w average but by now, I had no idea what my overall effort was. Hitting stop, I fumbled through the menu as I cooled down.

20min average? 324w 😮 Spooky!!!

So 308w FTP or 3.6w/kg.

Mid Shropshire Wheelers Sunday Series at Shrewsbury today. Only 25 starters, so I thought there would be a better chance of some aggresive riding than usual.

The 1st 10 minutes were relatively easy, which made a nice change, and gave me a chance to get properly warmed up. Attacks started going off at about the 10 minute mark, but nothing stuck. Had a bit of a dig on lap 12, but couldn't get a gap, so shut it down straight away. Lost a bit of concentration after that and drifted to the back. Gave myself a mental arse-kicking, and started to move back up, even if it meant a few sprints.

After about 30 minutes a few attacks caused a split of about 10 riders. I spotted it and sprinted across only to look back and see a line of riders on my wheel. 🙄

With about 3 to go, one of this year's previous winners attacked and got a decent gap. The bunch was slowly reeling him in, and going into the bottom hairpin on the penultimate lap a beautiful gap opened up in front of me; a quick kick had me 3rd or 4th wheel going round the bend, only to hear shouts as we exited - the leader had binned it on the exit. Hauled on the breaks to avoid his bike, and the group got blown to bits. Hit the bell lap in 13th but with a big gap to 12th. Put in a big sprint out of the last bend but couldn't quite get past, finishing 13th.

Anyway, pretty happy with the race, and feeling pretty good about the Shrewsbury GP next Sunday.

If you're wondering why I can be so certain about positions etc throughout the race, the timing system used gives some pretty cool data about lap speed, position etc.

[url= https://results.sporthive.com/events/PC1397043/races/4393278/bib/68 ]Sporthive result page[/url]

[url= https://www.strava.com/activities/999053765/analysis/0/3360 ]strava[/url]

Well done mate! Sounds exciting!!

That data is Epic and makes people pouring over a grainy video clip for three days seem ridiculously antiquated!
Was the entry fee higher to compensate?

Thnaks CH, was a fun race. Not having 45 riders clogging the circuit made for a much more interesting race.

Entry fee is £15 online, £20 on the line

Wow! So no dearer then either. It should be ubiquitous really...

I know Weeksy likes to rib me about my lack of tangible achievement but you do just 'know' when you've had a good race- regardless of the result. Especially if it gives you that mental boost for the next race! Good luck at the GP 🙂

Wow! So no dearer then either. It should be ubiquitous really

Really looking forward to next week, just got the rider pack through, and found out that it's going to be live-streamed 😀