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Speak to Enigma, they did an excellent and reasonably un-ugly repair on my Soda.
8 years might seem a decent life to some people, but on a £5200 frame-and-fork? I'd want that to last at least as long as 3 bikes.Where else really does the money go? Or is it all just sucker tax, like, if you'll spend £5000 on a frame and a fork, you'll do it whether or not it comes with good support?
(what even is the warranty? I looked on the website and I can't find a thing)
I'd imagine Jeff Jones spends a lot of time cultivating his hipster persona to ensure he can justify the prices which ensure his products are seen as uber cool and not for the many. You probably interrupted him trimming his beard whilst simultaneously sipping a craft beer ....most inconsiderate !
former jones owner here. expensive over priced stuff. a lot of bluff and bluster. cheaper bikes do everything just as well.
i too would be a bit miffed.
Might be worth contacting Vernon Barker in dronfield - they've done some interesting repairs and mods on frames for me in the past, and I'm sure they could do ti.
That's a fair offer from biff if you bought through the UK Chanel.
In contrast a friend of mines surly fork caliper stud mount failed on Saturday. Surly emailed back to say she's getting a new one foc asap.
Probably a good thing as she's bound for Beijing on two wheels shortly.
+1 for scotroutes comments about the Van Nicholas warranty. I have a Redwood Ti 29er which is a specific model year when they had track type horizontal drop outs, 2013 spec I think. I use it for Bikepacking with a Rohloff hub so the drop outs are perfect for chain tension adjustment. Last year the downtube cracked just under the head tube so I contacted them, they asked for photos of the crack and whole bike then found an exact replica and sent it to me without wanting the old one back, just a proof of purchase. It had been built up for publicity photos so included a headset foc. No hassle, cost or fuss. Good customer service. I was a bit concerned that they may be a bit arsey as I'd bought the original from Planet X at a fraction of RRP.
For the cost of those frames I would agree with what many have said, not the sort of "can't be asked" reply you would expect.
Fortunately I could never afford one anyway.
8 years might seem a decent life to some people, but on a £5200 frame-and-fork?
They didn't cost that much 8 years ago.
So they look crap, ride crap and break? It's a no from me.
It’s a no from me
I'm sure MrJones is crying into his craft beer over that.😉
FIVE THOUSAND QUID for a rigid frame and fork?
FIVE THOUSAND QUID for a rigid frame and fork?
Well...if you allow the crack to 'develop' some more it won't really be rigid...
I don't think the price of a frame magically makes it immune to breaking, eight years is a long time and if he says there's no warranty I certainly wouldn't be expecting anything.
TBF, that’s just Mark Lynskeys out-of-office email.
respect where it's due - that's splendid ! 🙂
I’d be very upset if I was the OP.
Crappy attitude...op is a customer, no need to be an arse even if answer is no.
I too would be very upset. At that price it’s a lifetime purchase. I would hope the price would go some way to customer care. You’d have got better from Giant.
Enigma will fix it and probably better than it was originally made.
I always wanted one - see user name. But maybe I should swap name to FeRed instead!
A friend had a Trek touring frame, made of steel, which he bought with a lifetime warranty about twenty years ago. The downtube came away from the headtube recently, and Trek just sent him a new frame in the post.
It's the latest model but pretty much identical except made in Taiwan rather than Wisconsin (or wherever the first one was made).
So eight years seems quite short.
A mate had his ancient Van Nic replaced FOC because they'd forgotten to fit brake hose guides, something he discovered when upgrading to discs.
Richard at Enigma here. Thanks for the positive comments all. We are busy making our own frames, and taking on less repairs, but we try to help where possible. Some jobs are just not economical but if you would like to email some pics to sales@enigmabikes.com we will see if anything can be done. Cheers
I'm no Jones expert but I understand he's a low volume, if not quite a one man band only has a few employees. So he makes 200 frames a year. As time goes by there's now 2,000 of his frames out there. Some will break, some will be damaged, at what point does he stop making new frames because all his time is taken up with repairing all the frames already in existence ? Maybe 8yrs is the cut of point where he feels your on your own, purely as a practical reality.
There's only one frame builder in the world that I would trust to weld me up a Ti frame, except he wouldn't trust himself to do it...
I’m no Jones expert but I understand he’s a low volume, if not quite a one man band only has a few employees. So he makes 200 frames a year. As time goes by there’s now 2,000 of his frames out there. Some will break, some will be damaged, at what point does he stop making new frames because all his time is taken up with repairing all the frames already in existence ? Maybe 8yrs is the cut of point where he feels your on your own, purely as a practical reality.
to be fair, if he's done £10mm worth of bikes (200x£5000x10) he can probably last a couple of years making no bikes at all. Or, y'know, if he built them properly it'd be less of an issue
TBF, that’s just Mark Lynskeys out-of-office email.
You know it might be more helpful to people if you explained your issue with Lynskey rather than just resorting to cheap shots. My experience of the brand was that they stood by their lifetime warranty and, ultimately, went a stage further too. If you've had a bad experience with the brand, why not just share it? Might be useful to anyone thinking of buying a Lynskey.
+1 for fantastic CS from Lynskey
I did chuckle at Scotroutes comment though. Think Scotroutes has discussed this before based on his experience working at a shop and the volume of Lynskey returns. Reports on Lynskey frame breakages also crop up on social media as well. However Lynskey do make a lot of Titanium frames so we have no evidence of what the failure rate is, so until I see actual stats I dont accept that they are any more or less prone to breakage than any other Ti manufacturer.
What I do know is their customer service is excellent and that is key for me buying an expensive frame. Like Northwind I had a look for Jones warranty and couldnt find it anywhere which would concern me. If the warranty is "Lifetime" then I expect that to be... my lifetime and I would expect the supplier to factor the likelihood/cost of replacement into the purchase price. In this case any other reason why they are so expensive?
Brilliant of Biff and Enigma to offer to help as well
Maybe 8yrs is the cut of point where he feels your on your own, purely as a practical reality.
If that's the case he should state it on his warranty terms
£4k for a direct sales on a Taiwanese ti frame means there's plenty of margin to offer a lifetime warranty - Jones simply needs to pay for warranty insurance like most businesses trying to maintain a decent reputation would do.
And if 8 years is the cut off, as others have said, he still doesn't need to be an arse about it on the phone. Politeness costs nothing (alhtough if you're willing to charge £5.2k for a Taiwanese-built frame, maybe it does....).
If that’s the case he should state it on his warranty terms
Does he actually offer a specific warranty. I've not been able to find any info. In the OP's words.
. He answers that he can’t do anything about it, there is no warranty
Maybe its all on a case by case basis, maybe he'll help maybe he won't. Not saying thats good but he doesn't seem short of buisness.
Me with another by-the-by – can’t help myself…
These mentions of Taiwanese frames – should I add in the “I’m not a racist but…” at the start or do I assume the authors each have in-depth knowledge of all the costs and processes and people involved in the creating of every bicycle frame across the planet?
Biff – sweeping statements under the carpet since 1998 :O)
I bought a Mk1 Airborne Lucky Strike direct from Jan in the Netherlands in 1998. It's far eastern and came with lifetime warranty. Airborne morphed into Van Nic in Europe in 2006, who offered a limited warranty on Airbornes (3 or 5 years?) to the original owner. That ain't what I signed up for but that's life.
As for 'investing' in a ti frame. I ride carefully and infrequently so this frame's still sound and fantastic to ride. I can't complain if it fails after 20 years. The only welding it has had is IS disc mounts, done by Vernon Barker for £80 in the late 2000s. Alignment is perfect and the welds are neat enough, recommended.
Sure the geometry is archaic; 71/73 head and seat tube with a 24" ETT, so it climbs way better than it descends but I won't be 'upgrading' to a modern bike unless it fails.
Bottom line, buying anything ti is an expensive gamble. I've been lucky, some haven't. Ti may last longer than a cheaper frame but even if it doesn't, the way ti rides makes me smile more than any other material so I'm sticking with it for life.
...eight years is a long time and if he says there’s no warranty I certainly wouldn’t be expecting anything
I'm sorry, but my Halfords frame is older than that and it's doing just fine. They don't sell frames separately, but if we were to break down the cost of components, it was probably around £50, at the most.
So what exactly do you pay 5 grand for?
- I suspect for a lot of people, customer service and after sales care would be at the top of the list.
- Reliability would be close behind (especially given that Ti has a reputation of being the ultimate in durability and performance, something that you might consider a bike for life)
- Performance would be up there, but in all likelihood you could spend the same money on a carbon bike that performs better. You buy a Jones because you're more interested in the above.
- Innovation would apply here. However, it doesn't come across as all that innovative when it fails to excel in any area. It's just a very expensive piece of art.
Personally I'd expect it to be fixed.
especially given that Ti has a reputation of being the ultimate in durability and performance
It does? I thought it had a reputation for doing just what it's done here: cracking.
I had a steel Jones Spaceframe for a while. Couldn’t get on with it, but that was probably more due me , thinking that I could ride a rigid bike like a trail bike at Afan.
However,it is still the most comfortable bike I have owned ( accepting that it is a rigid and not full suss etc).
It is the only bike I regret selling.
However, Jeff Jones should be ashamed of the shoddy after sales service he has given to the owner of his flagship frame.
In contrast, Biff’s offer of advice and help is excellent.
My original Tripster cracked at a cable stop weld - retailer had gone out of business but Kinesis swapped the frame with the bare minimum of what I'd consider perfectly reasonable due diligence. Only a year or so old though, but the warranty terms were clear concise and reasonable, and I couldn't have been happier with the manufacturer response.
Even after 8 years I'd be annoyed at being spoken to like that, and the cost does matter - pay premium you at least deserve a reasonable conversation about it.
Richard at Enigma here. Thanks for the positive comments all. We are busy making our own frames, and taking on less repairs, but we try to help where possible. Some jobs are just not economical but if you would like to email some pics to sales@enigmabikes.com we will see if anything can be done. Cheers
Great reply. Maybe JJ should take heed of this sort of response. Cost nothing to be polite, offer help but not commit to anything. But he chose rudeness and a brush off.
i would have though current Jones frame owners would be the most likely people to buy another one or at least recommend them to others - this sort of company probably works on word of mouth advertising quite a lot so this is a major mistake for him to make.
Op. When you bought the frame what was your understanding of the warranty ? Genuinely interested as there doesn't seem to be any info regarding it.
Thanks everyone here for your support and understanding. Especially Biff and Richard at Enigma for their offers.
In the meantime I found a motorsport frame builder, Bakker Frame Bouw in Heerhugowaard in my own country(holland) with a lot of experience in ti and bicycles.
They will do the weld job on my frame for about €70! Turnaround time about a week.
My frameset is a Merlin made one that I bought used years ago and enjoyed every minute of it. I sold my brand new Moots mootoX to fund it. The moment I threw my legs around it I knew I had made the right choice. I know it is weird to buy a bike that you never tested or ridden but with the Jones it became instantly clear that the geometry was perfect.
I was not gentle for it, took it to the Ardennes and Alpes but that's what Jeff does himself as he let us believe.
So on my last ride I heard this clicking sound while riding through an easy trail and stopped to see where it came from. Then I saw that there was a vertical crack in the seat tube. Of course I stopped riding immediately and examined it closer. Now in the Merlin made Jones ti frames there is this alloy sleeve glued to the inside of the ti seat tube and that got unfixed and 'moved' in the frame. I think that is what caused the tube to break.
In my opinion that is in fact a design failure but Merlin is no longer there and Jeff does not back it up.
So yes I am still a fan of Jeff Jones work and would recommend his bikes to anyone but I would advice to ask him about standing behind his products new and used.
Thanks
I would advice to ask him about standing behind his products new and used.
You can count on the fingers of one hand the number of bicycle manufacturers that will warranty a bike / frame that you've bought 2nd hand.
I bought a dekerf 2nd hand. When it needed a repair (ovalised head tube), I didn't even consider contacting Chris Dekerf. It was second hand (bought at a year old and mint, though) shipping it to Canada and back would have been bonkers. And bonkers expensive.
"My frameset is a Merlin made one that I bought used..."
If you're not the original owner I'm not sure why you expect any warranty support? You can be pleasantly surprised if you get it but almost no-one sells bikes with a transferable warranty.
I knew I had no warranty and I did not expert him to send me a new frame or repair it for free.
I only asked nicely if he could repair my frame when I sent it on my expense and that he could take the time for it I was in no hurry..
Used frame? OP, you should've mentioned that in the first post to be fair to Jeff and for context. Maybe he didn't reply to you in the way you expected but we only have one side of a story here. Not speculating or anything though. Maybe he just had a bad day.
I've dealt with Jeff over a similar but different point related to my Jones. He was a great guy to buy from and to deal with and I bought a second Jones a year later. I get bikes at trade and design+get made my own here and there so the level of respect I have for Jeff and how much I enjoy riding his bikes is no kool aid etc. It's just a great bike that suits me so well, and we all make vfm calls on different basis. Just my experience, that's all.
Agree that not mentioning it was second hand puts a complete different context on things. In fact you could say that 10% off offer is generous given you bought with no rights second hand.
Jeff responded to me believing I bought it new and was the original owner, I could not even get so far as to tell him I am the second owner..
He rattled from start that the warranty was not for live and that everybody thinks ti is forever and that companies gave the riders/buyers the wrong impression by mentioning live long warranties.
So my frame being second hand played no role here. Besides that I think he should be open for information about construction/design failures in his top model maybe even to learn from it.