[Closed] So how would you improve Critical Mass?

Well that's two very informative CM threads now. I was only vaguely aware of CM's activities before and pretty agnostic about their activities. But mike's attacks above and in the previous thread and the various YT clips posted by others have helped me form a far more definitive conclusion*.

Thank goodness, that there are other organisations/people able to behave in mature, law-abiding, responsible and respectful ways that are positively promoting the cause of all cyclists in the UK. By the looks of things, they are/will continue to be sorely needed.

* very happy to be presented with evidence to the contrary - but no, the fact that the taxi driver behaved poorly (even when provoked), doesn't really count.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I'm not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself. Which I did.

So why then are you posting one here asking people who's opinions you don't care about : "how would you improve Critical Mass?'"

Why does it need improving ?
You seem perfectly happy with it.

What exactly is your point ?

I used to go on Critical Mass rides in Australia. A mate of mine said I should come along and I thought that they were just friendly bunch rides through town.

I never found that they caused that much bother in Sydney because there were never very many cyclists coming out and not so many cars in town. But I, and many other people who would show up as one offs, all ended up finding that while the riders were very friendly at the start and end of the ride, during the ride the majority of regulars would almost actively look for trouble.

A lot of riders would ensure the lane was filled, so there was no opportunity for people in quicker vehicles to pass. On a Friday night. When people want their tea. There was no concession to pulling in, no politeness. And politeness is what will help cycling. Not looking for trouble. I have seen Critical Mass riders surround a car that was beeping at them and near as damn-it have a fight with the driver.

While I don't think we have any less right to the roads than car drivers the simple fact is that beyond the middle of the city they are usually quicker than us and people don't like to get deliberately held up on their way home to enjoy some free time. A normal commuter is not deliberately slowing anyone down. Critical Mass is.

On the whole, after I'd done 3 or 4 rides I found it too confrontational and it was clearly doing much more harm than good with the attitude of 90% of the regulars. Most people I saw on them would only turn up once and decide that it was clearly a menace to cycling's reputation and not the friendly, fluffy affair that it likes to think it is.

Any improvements have to come from a change of attitude. The first thing would be a change of day- Friday night is not the time for it. People want to get home on a Friday more than any other night. Winding them up more will not help. A later time when the bulk of the rush hour has gone will also help, around 7.30pm rather than 6pm.

A clearer campaign will also help. 90% of motorists don't know that you are Critical Mass. They just see a big bunch of people on bikes making trouble. If you were to keep it to a smaller area, say doing a loop a few times, with signs around it then it'd be much clearer and maybe get your message across. If you can't organise this, then I'd suggest just stopping doing it and let people like the CTC and Sustrans, who can be bothered to organise things, do it instead of a strange vigilante movement.

In the end a change of attitude from confrontational to entirely polite and friendly will help on all counts. Car drivers will put up with being held up if you're nice about if and don't go out of your way to be a problem, but more friendliness and politeness will encourage more of your average cyclists to join in and stay and help your cause (although, this does depend on you deciding exactly what your cause is...).

mikeoconner

As a taxi driver, he should be aware that CM happenes the same time once a month, so perhaps he should look for another job is driving in a congested city is too much for him.

What a self riteous, sanctimonious attitude. Like lots of people on here I ride my bike in London every day. I also drive, walk, get the train, the bus and use taxis.

Stop trying to Balkanise us, its you that isnt welcome.

First of all, can I please have permission to have an opinion?

Here is my CV:
I am a cyclist, car driver, and taxes that have been collected from my salary have gone towards funding roads and cycling infrastructure in the UK ([u]including[/u] London), Netherlands and Germany.
I do not presently reside within the geographical region covered by the London Assembly, TFL, Metropolitan/City Police etc., but have done, and have paid Council Taxes there too.

Sod that, here goes anyway...

I think the main thing to come from this is that people don't have a clear view on what CM stands for and what you are trying to achieve

The reason I first posted about this issue, and why I joined this forum, was to engage in a discussion to challenge ....

Since this thread seemed to be one asking how to improve CM.... LISTEN FFS. Don't challenge if it's something you didn't want to hear. Don't challenge opionions if you want to make the way CM is perceived, better.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I'm not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself.

Really? Seems to me like you can't make you mind up if you're the organiser of a protest ride whose image seems not to be that favourable amongst other cyclists, or just a cyclist.

I can't be held responsible for the way others perceive me

mikeconnor - Member
And on that note, I think there's sadly no point in continuing this discussion,

Starting to see the antagonistic, confrontational return visits as trolling.

Starting to see CM in a very similar light: It's aims too are confrontation, antagonism, disruption...

Is CM the physical incarnation of trolling?

What a self riteous, sanctimonious attitude. Like lots of people on here I ride my bike in London every day. I also drive, walk, get the train, the bus and use taxis.

too right.

If I see CM I make sure I get as far away from it as possible.

This thread has taken a few twists and turns - starts off asking for opinions (fair enough) then refuses to listen to those opinions and now claiming that you're nothing to do with CM, you just go along (whereas it started by sounding very much like you were involved at whatever level of organisation they do have).

There have been several people on here now, me included, who've done CM rides in the past but stopped because of the confrontational attitude and the fact that there is no clear message - surely that alone should tell you something?

I think you need to look more at events like SkyRide to get more people on bikes, to see how stress free and enjoyable it can be and to convert people to "the cause", get a cyclists eye view of things.

Also, your (or maybe "their"?) website is terrible.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I'm not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself.

Please , oh please, stop and tell that to all the people you inconvenience next time. I'm sure they will all be OK with it once they understand that you're only there to enjoy yourself and have a good time!

(Please ensure to video it when you tell the taxi driver)

Mike, not excusing his actions, but in that video a cyclist is deliberately blocking the taxi driver, not him merely being caught up in the conjestion.

So CM is not a protest group nor knows what it stands for if anything. Fine, its just friends out for a ride, then apparently. So how many on this Forum manage to go out on a evening ride with their friends and are deliberately confrontational, block other road users, ignore the police, jump red lights etc etc. Silly really isn't it.

[quote=mikeconnor]And one thing I forgot to mention yesterday, with all the accusations that CM does nothing to help promote the image of cycling (accusations that my own experience finds to be untrue), was that London Assembly member Jenny Jones was on the ride.

I know we've done this before but being on the ride and doing good things are not a causal chain. She was doing good things before and wanted to check up on it or what have you. I'm not saying some riders aren't spurred to do some good but as an "organisation" (I can't think of a better term), CM has no idea what it stands for or what it wants to achieve so you can't point at people achieving things and say it was down to CM.

Wow! That video said it all to be honest. Blocking junctions riding all over the road even when there were few enough cyclists not to warrant it, jumping red lights, plenty with no lights on, blocking people with the obvious intent of creating a reaction.

Looks like it does the exact opposite of what most cyclists would like to see.

You can repeat it as much as you want, but it isn't 'just a ride with some friends'.

Looked horrendous to me.

Seems to me like you can't make you mind up if you're the organiser of a protest ride whose image seems not to be that favourable amongst other cyclists, or just a cyclist.

Well, considering the fact that at no stage have i claimned to be an 'organiser of a protest ride', i'd consider that I'm just a cyclist. it's others who have placed me on this particular pedestal.

So why then are you posting one here asking people who's opinions you don't care about : "how would you improve Critical Mass?'"

Why does it need improving ?
You seem perfectly happy with it.

What exactly is your point ?

Well, it appears some peopl eon here have a very negative view, so I was asking for what they would do to help improve it's image. Reading through, there are very few constructiuve comments, and a lot of ill-informed prejudice. I'm sorry, but uyou can't claim to have an informed view of something you've never been on or even witness, as is clearly the case with quite a number of people on here. One person seemed to base his entire opinion of London CM rides on what he'd seen whilst sitting in a pub in Manchester. Forgive me for not taking comments from people like that seriously, and it's clear such individuals are not actually interested in any sensible discussion, and just want to wade in and cause trouble. Ironicaly, it's people like that who should be dissuaded from joining in on CM rides.

I don't agree that the main 'aim' ofCM is to 'cause trouble'. In my experience and knowledge, that's simply not truye. I accept that some other road users are frustrated by theevent, but as i've pointed out several times now; they alone chose to get wound up. No-one batr maybe a very small element set out to do so. The vast majority just want to dride their bikes and have fun.

So, we've ascertained that the congestion and delays are unfortunate and non-deliberate consequences of the ride. Certainly, Friday's ride was particularly large; it seems the police unwittingly gave the event far more publicity than it could have done on it's own. On average though,. I don't remeber most CM rides being anywhere near as large.

CM is an imperfect event in an imnperfect world. i think too many people are calling for a perfect solution (ie no CM at all for some people), when one isn't possible. The ride happens when and where it does, according to it's tradition. i'm not a Christian, yet I have to endure christmas and the ensuing fuss. Maybe it's mopre an issue of tolerance; people could learn to be more tolerant and accomodating towards others.

London is a huge, over-congested city, with inadequate transport infrastructure, and too much road traffic. Motor vehicle traffic is detrimental to health, safety and quality of life for all who live in large cities. People must be made to change theri mentality regarding cars; they believe car use (in large cities) is an entitlement, when in fact it should be viewed as a privilege. Personally, I wuld like to see cars bansihed from large parts of London, but clearly I am in a minority and accept that this will not happen, certainly not over night.

Don't challenge what we say, if you ask for our opinions.

I will challenge what I perceive to be wrong, as many of you have done towards me. Or is it a one-way process? If someone without knowledge or experience of something comments on something and they are ignorant, then they must expect to be challenged. Or refrain from commenting. debate is all about challenging other views. I have learned that many of you are stuubborn and have deeply entrenched views which you will not change. I have come on here wit hthe hope some middle ground could be found, yet instead been met with ignorance, hostility and at times outright rudeness. It's the internet, I expect nothing less, sadly.

Stop trying to Balkanise us, its you that isnt welcome.

I accept that someone whose opinions differ to that of the regulars on here isn't going to be welcome. However, i live in hope that at least some on here are capable of interacting in a more amicable manner. Perhaps I am naive in wanting this.

On the point mike keeps making about it just being about having fun on a bike; it turns out Luxembourg has critical mass. It's the most cycling friendly city I've ever lived so I don't imagine for a second they're all protesting in which case, it's clearly about social aspects. I'm going to go along to the next one and see how it goes.

So, we've ascertained that the congestion and delays are unfortunate and non-deliberate consequences of the ride.

Sorry. But really non-deliberate? Surely there cannot be any other outcome when 100-200 cyclists ride through a city, in rush hour, ignoring red lights and blocking junctions (insert blah blah about safety etc).

mike - I'm happy to give CM the benefit of the doubt (if I knew what it stood for) but don't treat people like idiots with rubbish like that.

Personally, I wuld like to see cars bansihed from large parts of London, but clearly I am in a minority and accept that this will not happen, certainly not over night.

I don't - I have no issue with cars - I own one.

Cars themselves are not bad, but it is the inapproprite use of them that is..

1mile car journey to the shops or to a school is wrong.

ps just come back from Netherlands, surprised they don't hold a PM (pedestrian mass) in their major cities.... have to keep your wits about you when walking in amsterdam! 😉

mikeconnor, I'm going to take a step back here and just ask this. How about acknowledging those who have put forward sensible and thought out suggestion? You seem to focus on the (in your eyes) unrealistic and naive suggestions, try ignoring those and engaging with those of us who would like to discuss it properly?

people could learn to be more tolerant and accomodating towards others.

Which is the exact opposite of what the cyclists in the film of last weeks London CM were being.

You want people to be more tolerant and accommodating towards cyclists, but won't extend the same courtesy to other road users? really, you need to have a think about what you're saying.

I remain convinced that this is in fact a wonderfully elaborate troll from an ex-member of this parish.

Who?

I'm going to go along to the next one and see how it goes.

Excellent! And I hope others will do the same. that way, we could have a more informed debate about the issues.

Sorry. But really non-deliberate?

well, I think it's a given that a mass of 2-300 cyclits all riding together in a busy city will cause some disrtuption, but then, so do thousands and thousands of cars. Every single day. CM is for a few hours once a month. I do not think that the vast majority of riders intend to deliberately cause trouble though.

as for running red lights and blocking traffic; the best way to keep the group moving, so that it doesn't get fragmented and strung out all over the city (which would inevitably cause even more problems), is to keep things rolling through each junctiuon. i have even seen police ushering people through red lights, so that's clearly the best solutiuon in the circumstances. With the 'deliberate' blocking of traffic; this is sometimes necessary to prevent impatioent drivers from trying to drive through the mass, which would be very dangerous and will/has resulted in accidents and injuries. general, the ones asking the drivers to stop will chat to them and thank them for their patience.

Which is the exact opposite of what the cyclists in the film of last weeks London CM were being.

Ah, you watched a video, yet I was actually there, so saw more of how things transpired. Don't wish to sound arrogant, but I think even you can concede that I may have a better perspective on this?

I'm going to take a step back here and just ask this. How about acknowledging those who have put forward sensible and thought out suggestion? You seem to focus on the (in your eyes) unrealistic and naive suggestions, try ignoring those and engaging with those of us who would like to discuss it properly?

A fair coment. I have allowed myself to be sucked in by those clearly just out to antagonise, and neglected to interact with those actually behaving decently, so i apologise. I think some very good suggestions have been made, particularly with things like giving out information etc. But I'm sure you can all appreciate that CM is a very difficult beast, and there are no simple solutions.

CM has no idea what it stands for or what it wants to achieve

Because, ultimately, it's not a political movement, organisation or event with any agenda. That individuals may each have their own agenda is merely their own choice, and that they may chose to use CM as a platform, is again simply their own choice. CM is nothing more than a concept; that people get together to ride bikes safley and enjoyably, in an environment that is other wise hostile to an individual. That so many of you really want it to be something political or tangible, shows how little you understand the whole concept. Do you have a political agenda whewn you go for a bike ride, or do you just go for a bike ride?

Mike - well done, you have provided everyone on here with a clear idea of what CM is about.

You have now become a one man marketing disaster for cycling.

You have also shown us that CM is also a disaster for cycling.

it's not a political movement, organisation or event with any [b]agenda[/b]

Maybe each car driver, aware that CM will be happening, could use alternative routes, or perhaps not use their cars at all. This is London, where most car journeys could easily be made using alternative means. So maybe it's the car drivers who are the selfish ones, as they are the overwhleming main cause of traffic congestion in London.

Can i not ask them to leave their cars at home, use alternative transport so that i can ride my bike in [b]a motor traffic free environment?[/b]

One person seemed to base his entire opinion of London CM rides on what he'd seen whilst sitting in a pub in Manchester.

I take it that's referring to me. Here goes then Mike. I'll bite, yet again

I used to watch CM in Manchester every time they 'celebrated cycling'. I'd do this while having an after work Friday pint. My bike, on which I commuted into the city every day, would be leaning on a wall next to me

They ride around on a Friday evening, generally annoying people who's only crime seems to be that they're sat in a car and want to get home for the weekend. By blocking junctions, causing unnecessary congestion, jumping red lights and generally being stupid.

From [i]repeatedly[/i] watching them do this I formed the perfectly reasonable conclusion that they're a bunch of clowns who achieve the grand total of sod all!!! In fact its worse than that..... they antagonise car drivers, making them less inclined to be considerate to cyclists. Of which I am one.

Now I've asked you repeatedly to point out how this radically differs from what the London lot are doing, because from what I can see the two are identical. Maybe that's why they both call themselves critical mass. Just a thought...

Anyway... I'm obviously not very bright as I'm clearly missing something. Would you care to enlighten me......

Oh... if you could do it in the most dismissive, patronising, condescending and sanctimonious manner possible, that would be great. I'm a bit odd like that. Must be a regression thing, I suppose. I really enjoy people talking down to me

Fire away.....

I have learned that many of you are stuubborn and have deeply entrenched views which you will not change

ignores evidence
wears tight blinkers
has too much time on his hands
cant leave an internet argument without the final word.....

welcome back TeeJ.

as for running red lights and blocking traffic; the best way to keep the group moving, so that it doesn't get fragmented and strung out all over the city (which would inevitably cause even more problems), is to keep things rolling through each junctiuon.

lol so cars can go through red lights if they want to stay with their friends? if you want to be part of the traffic and respected as such by other traffic, you gotta obey the same rules, or expect other road users to break the same rules.

dyed in the wool lefty
resorts to insults
believes he exists on a higher plane of intellect......

at least TJ knows im just gently ribbing him :mleh:

I have come on here with the hope some middle ground could be found

Mike - well done, you have provided everyone on here with a clear idea of what CM is about.

I suspect some of them are just as clueless as when this discussion began. Even light cannot penetrate a black hole.

You have now become a one man marketing disaster for cycling.

You have also shown us that CM is also a disaster for cycling.

That is absolutely your opinion and nothing else. Just because others may agree with you does not validate it in any way.

I must go now, as i have to sort out a bike for a teenager who has suffered serious health problems and wants to use a bike to get healthy again. A job I shall enjoy immensely. I hop the rest of your day is just as rewarding.

TJ you say? Smells more of Fred/Elfin to me.

soobalias - Member
ignores evidence
wears tight blinkers
has too much time on his hands
cant leave an internet argument without the final word.....
welcome back TeeJ.

Doubt it.
Teej was sound.
TBH, its a bit insulting to him, especially when he's not here to defend himself.

Missing you already.....

Could you answer my questions when you get back though please Mike? Fanks

Oh... and I've just nominated you for one of these...

[img] [/img]

well, I think it's a given that a mass of 2-300 cyclits all riding together in a busy city will cause some disrtuption, but then, so do thousands and thousands of cars.

If car drivers behaved deliberatedly like CM "celebrations" or the sheer volume of cyclists caused the problem at CM then then you would have a point but it is deliberte from CM. probably best to compare it to a rolling roadblock by angry truckers/farmers/clarksons whomever for the delierate disruption it causes.

Ah, you watched a video, yet I was actually there, so saw more of how things transpired. Don't wish to sound arrogant, but I think even you can concede that I may have a better perspective on this?

The video was marked Number 1 on the CM website - an advert for the cause.

My main objection is that not one of the was wearing a helmet 😉
and as above
[img] [/img]

cant leave an internet argument without the final word.....

welcome back TeeJ.

[img] [/img]

(can't believe nobody has done this yet)

That is absolutely your opinion and nothing else.

No, it' become a consensus. Rare on stw.

mikeconnor - Member
And on that note, I think there's sadly no point in continuing this discussion,

No, it's become a consensus. Rare on stw.

Indeed. A consensus that has brought together [i]cyclists[/i] as diverse as Junky, Binners and I. As well as almost everyone else. On a bike forum, FFS!

Oh, and it;s not TJ. TJ's way better than this.

It'd be really good if someone who actually represented Critical Mass would come on to this thread and tell us what they think.

Mike, I thought you were going to concentrate on the positive stuff.

I must go now, as i have to sort out a bike for a teenager who has suffered serious health problems and wants to use a bike to get healthy again. A job I shall enjoy immensely. I hop the rest of your day is just as rewarding.

bless you my child, may your sense of self worth be boosted by such wonderful acts of selflessness and community spirit. like the rest of STW i will be selling crack to school kids whilst, and i think i can speak for everyone else on here when i say.... it'll be hard for us to focus on our jobs ruining the lives of our future generations when we're all swooning so hard at the thought of you helping somebody out. you kind, kind mayn.

oh what's the point?

😆 Philly....! Nicely done! 🙂

[quote=druidh ]It'd be really good if someone who actually represented Critical Mass would come on to this thread and tell us what they think.

Surely from what Mike said, nobody represents it. You can't represent a cloud or I suppose in this case a miasma.