[Closed] Skills compensator.... What to think of and buy.... 160-170mm, trail bike

I thought the T130 was all the bike anyone would ever need?

Skills course with a good coaching company (Proride at FOD gets good recommendations) would be the first port of call. Will make more of a difference over a bit more travel, you dont want to be getting into bother in the first place!

Longer travel will decrease your feel for what's going on under you. The way around it is going faster and making it work harder, long bikes like a G-160 especially so. It can end up being a bit of a catch-22 as a result (doesn't feel nice going slowly, so doesn't give the confidence to go faster where it would feel better).

However, a fairly basic G-160 can be had for nearer the £1k mark. So would be a reasonably low risk purchase if you bought an S model with a view to upgrading whatever needs doing (if you end up liking it)

Skills course with a good coaching company (Proride at FOD gets good recommendations) would be the first port of call. Will make more of a difference over a bit more travel, you dont want to be getting into bother in the first place!

I've done multiple days with Jedi and whilst i'm a lot better offroad than i previously was, i'm a long way from being Sam Hill. I'm not against more training as an idea... but not sure i'm going to get much from it as my balls stop me doing the harder stuff !

I thought the T130 was all the bike anyone would ever need?

Easy to agree... but when you come to something scary i do wonder if something bigger may make it less so.

There are a few cheap Bird 145/160 about, you can get the frame warranty transferred and they are pretty capable bikes.

If you've upgraded the whyte, i'd recommend getting a new frame and fork, and keeping everything else.

My shortlist

Bird 145LT (170 front, 160 rear)
Orange Alpine6 (170 front 160 or 165 rear)

If you go second hand, there was a year or two of oranges that broke a lot, I've got an idea that it was the 2017...

If you’ve upgraded the whyte, i’d recommend getting a new frame and fork, and keeping everything else

I've got all of the bits from the T130, so if i went bigger any of the bling bits would be coming off and going on my boys bike if they're not compatible with any new purchase and the T130 would be sold in standar trim. But no major hurry on that side of the debate really as i'm already wondering if i'd be better buying him something bigger instead of myself and just accepting he'll be doing harder techier stuff than me... But that's a whole different debates.

I wouldn't have an Orange if it were free... not sure why, it's just not happening.

Are early V4 alloy/C spec Nomads down to sub 2k S/H yet?

https://whyte.bike/collections/offers/products/s150crs on sale

Yeah i do like the concept of the S150 along with the S being that i can fit the 27.5s in it... but then i'm kinda wasting the fact it has 29er wheels... but i don't want to waste my Pro4's by not using them and i am still fairly convinced that 29ers don't turn as well/nicely as 27.5s.. So that then only really leaves me with the fact i've swaped from a 130-150, which, well, is it enough of a change to really be of much use ?

What about an Orbea Rallon ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Orbea-Rallon-x30-2017-18-Full-suspension-mountain-bike-Excellent-Mint-L/202852263176?hash=item2f3aefe508:g:FgIAAOSwGQRdd3ti

If you want longer travel but something that isn’t a barge the trek slash is ideal. Lots of deals around in the 2019 alloy version at the minute (which has a steeper seat tube than the carbon). Stick it in the high setting and you can use a 27.5 rear wheel. The mullet set up works for me especially on more Dh focused stuff and I can change to 29er when suits. 2 bikes in one really.

Not sure that additional travel is a skills compromiser.  It brings additional challenges, things like longer bikes being slightly less direct and slower to turn.  Generally bigger bikes weigh more so require more speed/better techniques.  Sure you can plough through things easier, but that can be full of risks as eventually you try and steam through something which was bigger than expected.  That said I also don’t buy into the ‘130mm trail bike is all you need’ comments, it’s so subjective as to what and where you ride.  For me my 160mm bike is all I need for Proper gnarly South Wales off piste stuff.  Also plenty big enough for any trail I’m willing to ride at BPW (all reds and few of the blacks) but also is manageable around trail centres and FOD off piste trails.  It will also be coming with me to the Alps this year and be raced across the U.K.  In fact I doubt there is anywhere a 130 trail bike is noticeably faster than my Mojo HD4 if things like tyres are set up the same.

Try a Jeffsy. 29ers arent slow in the corners when you try a good one. My mates blew me away, it's a right laugh, and s whole barrel of fun.
I demo'd one last year with loads of posh bits and and was even more funnererer.
My Capra was a beast, but definitely more of a plough through stuff sort of thing. Current Patrol with a 170 fork is the perfect bike for me though. Pedals well, jumps nicely, carves turns but smashes through stuff when I need a bit of extra help.
So yeah, Patrol/Sentinel alloy is another good option, depending on wheel size choice. The Sentinel is a rocket downhill.

The above is where my problems kind of begin....

The place where a T130 is faster than the 160 etc is '95% of my riding' in all honesty.... mostly it's local/Swinley/etc and i'd wager the lighter faster nimbler 130mm is quicker on them than the heavier burlier 160.
Would i ride anything 'harder' in Morzine just because i have a bigger bike there... Mmmmm i'd like to maybe think the answer is yes... but the reality... I dunno 🙂

Which leaves us the obvious answer of "get a Nukeproof Pulse and leave for the big days" but that's a chunk of change for half a dozen days per year.

Nothing much is going to happen before we do BPW in a couple of weeks as i'm going to stick some bigger brakes on the T-130 and see just how much i 'need' more when my lad starts attacking things LOL.

Try a Jeffsy

I like them... one of the locals got one and it's very nice.

I have a 130 YT and a 170 YT. The difference that actually matters is not more travel, it's a slacker Head Angle.

I've done skills courses with Jedi, a couple with Tom Dowie and several with Katie Curd. They all helped, especially Katie. But just bunging on more travel could be a recipe for bigger crashes.

A slacker HA will give you more confidence, but it will also up the DH speed. Speed without skills and experience are a quick way to A&E.

Riding off Piste in the Forest of Dean there are a few runs Id not choose to do on the 130mm bike basically due to the HA, not travel. Well set up suspension and good technique can mean you dont need lots of travel. Sure, the 170mm will bail me out when I get it horribly wrong, but that's my fault, not the bike.

I'd go with the Bird, because of course I've got one myself. It's a fantastic bike.

Does need some commitment though, it's not hard to ride per-se, actually pretty forgiving, but if you're not committed it won't either.

It's fine to pootle around on, and if you're pinned it's amazing, but it's that whole bit in the middle, if you find yourself riding half-arsed it won't want to turn, it'll just want to drift wide, and ride a bit harsh on the rough stuff.

You don't need to be Sam Hill to ride it, far from, I'm not a great rider, but you have to be trying.

Maybe test ride some bikes and see what you like - where are you in the country?

It’s not necessarily all about travel (easy for me to say with 170/160mm travel) but angles / reach etc as well.

There’s another thread going about the Norco Optic and if I were getting a new bike I’d be considering something like that or in that ballpark. Something 29er potentially and 140f / 130r travel with around a 65 degree headangle, a good sized reach (for me at 5’9 and with quite short arms I’d be inclined to say 465-470mm reach) and with the shortest chainstays I could get away with whilst allowing for reasonable mud clearance.

My current bike is great - it’s an Aeris 145LT with 170mm lyriks / codes etc and on uplift days it’s amazing. Capable of far more than I can do and when you’re on it it’s fantastic. I’ve done all day rides on it like the big loop at Brechfa / Brecon Gap plus pedalled it up Snowdon etc as well as uplift days. I’ve been riding it coming up 3 years in a couple of months time. No plans to change it at the moment.

I do hanker for something inbetween the Aeris and my hardtail though - but don’t have the justification to add a middle bike! I wonder if one of the 130/140 29ers might be that bike - would it do the big stuff nearly as well as what I’ve got but be more lively in more vanilla / mundane trails?

There’s a Bird Aeris 145 in medium for £1000 on the Bird Owners Facebook page at the moment with Pikes on it which seems a bargain. Not a bling build (10 speed etc) but most of your bits would probably be compatible.

Threaded BB / external cables / metric shock / boost etc. Nothing out of date and good backup from the manufacturer.

Whilst a new bike is always nice, and longer travel might soak up enough to make you a little bit quicker on rougher stuff in some situations, the only way you will really progress is to ride more of the stuff that pushes you more of the time. Take time to practise the skills you have been taught and you will become faster as your 'comfort zone' changes.

(speaking as someone who did a session with Tony and didn't really practise what I'd learnt at the time. Now, several years later, I've been making a concerted effort to practise and have seen my skill / confidence level increase considerably).

But, a new bike is always nice, so do both - buy new bike & practise more! Win win!

thanks for the replies... i'm not ignoring posts if i don't directly reply.... just not necessairly anything to add to them.

Get an S-150...

Without wishing to sound all Chris Porter, there’s FAR too much emphasis been placed on a bikes ability to turn in MTB design over the years, mostly at the expense of stability and confidence in said turns. OK so maybe a Geometron G1 makes his point a little too bluntly for your average trail rider that also rides some twisty Singletrack from time to time, but you can get any MTB round a corner if you want to! In fact MX/Enduro motorbikes will also go round surprisingly tight corners too with their 1500mm+ wheelbases, limited steering lock and short offset crowns, if they need to. My mates were decrying 29ers as the work of the Devil 3/4 years ago, and thought I was stupid to ride one, but they couldn’t work out why despite longer travel 26/27.5 wheeled bikes they were struggling to keep up with me at times. They all ride modern 29ers now funnily enough!

You won’t be bothered by the preconception that 29ers don’t turn as well once you’ve ridden it. For the type of riding you’re describing, it’s ideal. Geometry is more important than ultimate travel figures, in fact as has been mentioned already, too much travel can rob you of feel. S-150 is just such a confidence inspiring bike in all situations,

I did a bit of back to back testing with the one I ran for a bit on 29x2.35 vs 27.5x2.8 and in most situations the cons to the 27.5x2.8 size vastly outweighed the pro’s. Any smaller tyre than 2.8” on a 27.5” rim on the S-150 and the BB would be so low as to mean pedal strikes inevitable rather than just something to be cautious of.

G-160/170 is also a great bike for sure, but I’d rather have an S-150 for UK trail riding every day.

Just admit it, you want a new bike. Nothing wrong with that. You did just say that the T130 is right for 95% of your riding so that would be the end of the debate for me.

I'm also not sure what another 10 or 20 mm of travel would do for your mental game. Because your current bike probably isn't holding you back as much as you think it is.

the only way you will really progress is to ride more of the stuff that pushes you more of the time. Take time to practise the skills you have been taught and you will become faster as your ‘comfort zone’ changes.

Can't agree more with this, coming from motorbikes and trackdays etc, the only way to go faster is to do it more and do it harder yes.

In a MTB context it's something we're actively trying this year and next and without doubt i'm faster and better than i used to be as a rider, so can't argue there either.

Ah forgot you were a motorbike rider weeksy...

So I’m gonna double down on my previous post! Have a look at geometry and design of a typical motorbike vs a typical MTB. MTB’s have much shorter wheelbases and much steeper head angles like for like typically. Also MTB’s tend to run much more fork offset, and hence have lower trail figures... Why?

All of those things contribute to why most MTB’s are less stable than motorbikes. Ok so maybe you’re not planning on doing 200mph on your MTB, but a more modern bike than your T-130 (not knocking them, they’re ace fun bikes it’s just they were designed to be fun and playful at a typical trail centre, and they’re a bit short and upright if you’re pushing on) will open your eyes as to what is possible!!!

Go too far though and it’ll be hard to adjust. It’s like the bar width thing... I’ve progressively gone from 580mm in 1994 to 680mm in 2004, and here we are in 2019 and 780mm is my new normal. Had I gone from 580 to 780 in one go, it would have taken some getting used to perhaps!

get a burley hardtail and ride it to develop skills. At the same time ride your fs. Hardtails require a more skilful type of riding and would enable you to get the most out of your current fs. Or get a used bmx for next to nothing and go to the bmx track with it. This would be a cheap way to enhance your skills too.

get a burley hardtail and ride it to develop skills. At the same time ride your fs. Hardtails require a more skilful type of riding and would enable you to get the most out of your current fs. Or get a used bmx for next to nothing and go to the bmx track with it. This would be a cheap way to enhance your skills too

Errrrrrm no....then no.... and lastly.... no 🙂

160mm travel full suss ebike is surely the logical answer !

160mm travel full suss ebike is surely the logical answer !

Nah, i enjoy the challenge of pedalling... He's slower than me both up and down... well, as long as i don't have to stop and walk a feature he attacks 🙂

Just go and buy yourself a 2nd hand g160 in your size... Swap your fancy parts over to it and enjoy it😉... Have a go on an ebike with the motor off for a few days and then any bike you ride after will feel extremely light and nimble 😁

I'd even go as far as to say that once used to a g160, you'll never opt for the t130 again

Could you build up a cheap longer travel bike for stuff like this? That's what I've done - I have my Hightower as my go to, I absolutely love it for the places I ride. But I've also built up an older Nukeproof Mega for alps trips and bigger riding places (like Black Mountain) - its on a Cane Creek coil, and some 170mm 36's I had from my previous Transition Patrol. I'd say it total it cost me around £1k to put together.

I've got a T-130 and a G-160. It was a really hard decision which one was going out to Chatel this year, the 160 won out as it's got better brakes. The 130 is an incredible bike. I prefer to jump that as it feels a lot more playful but the 160 does give a bit more bail out.

Find the 130 a lot more fun and playful and the 160 a complete beast, really got to let it go to get the most out of it. I'm a fairly average rider but I can get down most of the stuff I ride as quick on either bike until it gets really technical when the 160 will be slightly quicker.

Have you gone 140mm fork on the 130?

There's no way I'd be getting rid of the 130, it's fun everywhere rather than just where it gets really rough! The geometry is so similar though it's really easy to jump between them and be straight up to speed.

Could you build up a cheap longer travel bike for stuff like this?

Due to having just bought the Wife a Liv Embolden E+ last week, plus multiple motorbikes in there, there's no space for another bike... Especially again, if my lad carries on and wants a DH bike LOL.

It's not a cost thing as such, but a space thing.

Have you gone 140mm fork on the 130?

Yes the Fox 34s are 140mm (i think... i should check... but i think so)

edit... i lie...
Fox Suspension 34 Float Performance Elite 27.5 130MM 27.5 BLACK/BLUE DECALS ¬

I don't think more at the back would really help you if its really about committing to more sketchy stuff.

I have a 130 YT and a 170 YT. The difference that actually matters is not more travel, it’s a slacker Head Angle

This

Have you thought about putting a bigger fork on? More travel and a tad slacker might help. Plus a chunky front tyre and short stem.

Have you thought about putting a bigger fork on?

Not really, i only recently went to this set of forks.

Bird are near you and have a demo fleet at Swinley I think. The 150mm AM9 should be enough for most riding most of the time unless you are really set on 160/170mm.

As others have said, it’s not the bike holding you back, it’s you. If you want to improve your skills, you have to spend time working on them, which is a different mindset to ‘going for a ride’.

Yesterday, for example we headed out, ended up finding a steep & rutted trail which we ended up riding over and over for the best part of 2 hours, trying stupid things, hitting corners way too fast, endless crashes & some runs which actually turned out well. Unless you repeatedly push how hard you can ride something, you don’t know where the limit is - I was probably 50% faster on the corners by the end of the day, but if I tried to ride them straight off the bat at the end speed, I wouldn’t have made it round the first one 🙂

Go and find some steep ruts and ride them too fast over and over again.

IMO you won’t improve riding at Swinley (other than your ability to pedal) or the likes of somewhere like BPW, as you arnt focussing on improving how you ride certain corners, or drops etc, you can’t, unless you go all that way and keep riding the same 200m of trail.

MO you won’t improve riding at Swinley (other than your ability to pedal) or the likes of somewhere like BPW, as you arnt focussing on improving how you ride certain corners,

I am 🙂

Ok, you may be somewhat, depending on your starting point, purely on the basis of time on the bike.

But you can, and would do better trying a more focussed approach to messing around on your bike.

There is as little point to buying a big 170mm enduro bike as there is to buying a DH bike & riding it once in a blue moon. You need lots of time on them to make them work properly.

But you can, and would do better trying a more focussed approach to messing around on your bike.

That's then all sounding a bit like training and homework rather than fun and riding... I struggle with that as a concept... Sure, i get the idea of it... but doing say 200m then going back up, doing it again, and repeat, i'm not feeling the love as a riding day.

is @weeksy the new @hora

Have you thought about putting a bigger fork on?

Common mod on a T-130 is a 10mm increase in fork travel. Changes the attitude of the bike slightly and gives a bit more bias towards descending without ruining the geometry. I’ve done this on many bikes for customers.

In fact I’d be tempted, before splashing loads of cash if you only have space for one bike, would be to increase fork travel by 10mm, and also fit a -1deg slackset too. Should get you around or just under 66deg head angle whilst retaining BB height and Seat angle, and improve the attitude of the bike somewhat. This is pretty much what they did for the 2019 T-130 range anyway, they all have slacker HA and 140mm fork fitted now anyway.

is @weeksy the new @hora

I've bought 2 bikes in 3 years ? Both were T-130s.... where are you going with this ?

That’s then all sounding a bit like training and homework rather than fun and riding… I struggle with that as a concept… Sure, i get the idea of it… but doing say 200m then going back up, doing it again, and repeat, i’m not feeling the love as a riding day.

I’m sure given your Zwifting obsession, you can appreciate the irony in that statement 😉

Why is skill improving frowned upon, yet spending days on a static bike trying improve your fitness not?

Sure, it’s a different approach to riding but it doesn’t just have to be that. Go and ride somewhere with tech trails, ride a loop and stop off somewhere or on a trail section that’s challenging, or you’re struggling with & spend an hour on it, breaking it down & then building the speed back into it.

You will get more from it than than buying a big travel bike that feels alien to ride most of the time.