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I asked an AI.
Yo—
Snapbacks, drop bars, thread’s lit, no facade,
Singletrackworld where the riders go hard.
Keyboard warriors, tubeless and scarred,
Droppin’ opinions like chainrings in the yard.
Scroll deep—yeah, the drama’s elite,
One post beef, next post, tech elite.
Suspension debates, drivetrain heat,
Talkin' ‘bout forks like they’re lyrical feats.
“Why’s my hub clickin’?” “Climb or descend?”
“Is that new SRAM or just rebranded trend?”
One dude posts pics, another one pretends—
And Mods come through like, “Yo, thread ends.”
But still, through sarcasm, GIFs, and jest,
It’s a tribe of torque, no need to flex.
From the mud to the memes to the rider’s quest,
It’s a digital trail where the vibes don’t rest.
“are you producing content that Pele want to consume?”
he’s more viagra and football isn’t he?
the content HERE is what brings a lot of the forum people to the forum
It shouldn't really come as much of a shock that the people most vocal on the forum come here for the forum content.
I initially came here because of the magazine and a newly rediscovered interest in cycling (it was actually my partner of the time who directed me here), but it's the forum community which has kept me here for, what, 15 years?
My comment on drawing SM use here was that if I’m on instagram (which I use only for bike stuff) I’ll read says pinkbike doing a basic photo post and click the “full details in the comments and click the link to read it”. I rarely do that on STW. So whilst the ££ per traffic isn’t great compared to Google then I just wonder what’s the goal with the posts sometimes. And I hate to be critical when the mag needs help, just chucking in my 2p of thoughts
The content isn't even relevant to many of us, the content HERE is what brings a lot of the forum people to the forum, not the content of the magazine/website.
I guess the answer to this would be that of the people who subscribe more of them are interested in the magazine than they are the forum.
if they aren’t active on the forum, you won’t know what they think.
If on the other hand, the only people who subscribe are the ones that are active on the forum, then you may have a point.
It shouldn't really come as much of a shock that the people most vocal on the forum come here for the forum content.
It does come across a bit like doing a survey about "do you like books" in the foyer of a public library (I am aware this might not work as well today as it did when I learnt it as "simple example of dodgy surveys").
I do think Mark does a good job of answering questions from people and only think its a shame there isnt a letters page in the mag where people can write in going "Whilst down the club I was reading the magazine and was shocked when Bunty interrupted me to say there is a 'Website' associated with this fine paper. Are we subsidising that?"
I am not quite sure why I went all public school and private club there but...
The web is going to die soon as well with new agentic/generative UI's replacing static content
TBH this could actually spark a revival to printed magazines written by real people.
Anyone currently hammering the AI for content is generating reams of shite and TBH I think there will be a counterrevolution to it.
I use AI in the day job and it’s a handy tool but all tools need a master craftsman to really sing 🙂
Print magazines are starting to see a revival. It will never go back to the highs of 15 years ago but the low point is definitely behind us (all specialist magazines publishers). I hate to liken it to vinyl as vinyl is fundamentally a shite medium for music whereas print is a very good medium for content. But you get the idea.
TBH this could actually spark a revival to printed magazines written by real people.
.. .. using AI for content is generating reams of shite and TBH I think there will be a counterrevolution to it.
.. .. all tools need a master craftsman to really sing 🙂
This
I hate to liken it to vinyl as vinyl is fundamentally a shite medium for music
…now you’ve done it!!! 😱😱
The key point that STW misses and has for a long time is that the content provided by their users is more valuable than the content they push to them. ...,.....Marry that with a forum that is increasingly reducing the amount and quality of content provided by users
I tend to agree with this to a large extent.
This is absolutely NOT true at all.
Keen to understand what data you have based this on. I'm not that up to date but I seem to recall there being an option to subscribe to the mag, no option to subscribe to the forum, and then you were comparing the income from mag subscribers to the income from free forum users without taking into account the fact that many " mag" subscribers only did so as it was the only model to pay money regularly to support STW ( forum)
The data is here in front of me. And no, I’m obviously not going to share it. I know what powers the business and where the money comes from. The number of subscribers who pay just for the forum is not as many as you think. The forum itself is a self selecting data source. I see exactly how many people engage with every part of the site and every piece of content. Print subscribers alone outnumber digital only by more than 2:1 and that gap is widening. The subs growth right now is in print. I appreciate that doesn’t match your perception but it doesn’t stop it from being the reality.
The forum is not the cash cow you may think it is but it is a vital part of the whole.
I know you can’t fathom why and that’s fine, you don’t see what I see, but the forum alone is absolutely NOT a viable business.
Ok here is my prediction. Total speculation of course
It’s clear that the money raised needs a purpose to expand the business. Mark has hinted at this and i wish I’d written this a couple of days ago when i thought of it.
One options is the YT plus commercial tie in, like the GCN thing. But i don’t see that working here. Partly as GCN have filled that space and i see no love for YT here
So my prediction is that the development will be travel. Here are my slim clues. Chipps is already a destination and is offered as investor perk. The guys all popped over to Morzine recently. The Mag has always covered travel, often with commercial partners involved. Mark mentioned travel as an option
So i think what they are planning to add is a “Much Better Adventures” style Portal, which will start with off road cycling. This will allow customers to book with Independent providers. Providers increase occupancy and Singletrack gets a small %. Each destination will get words, pictures and videos provided by the team here. We’ll be able to comment and review
I think it makes sense as it’s a good use of the existing traffic, lots of visitors to this site go on cycling holidays. It’s a good use of staff and owner expertise. It also has the potential to bring in new traffic to the site.
My main speculation here is that the providers could do with more bookings. But the team here have loads of contacts with providers. They’ll know whether there is a market for this. I’m not going to name potential partners as that seems unfair on them. But they’ll be offering accommodation and in most cases, guided rides.
Here is a story from a mate who sea kayaks. His work includes websites in the travel sector. The story is to illustrate what is in it for the providers.
My mate got to know some guys who ran Sea Kayak trips in Scotland. They had a social media presence which helped with repeat bookings. But it didn’t bring in new clients and they were struggling to fill trips.
So my mate wrote a piece about Sea Kayak safety which he thought people would share. The company put it on their website and people shared it. A week later that had sold out every trip for that year. To say they thank you he got a free holiday, the one he wanted but couldn’t afford.
Print subscribers alone outnumber digital only by more than 2:1 and that gap is widening.
Likely driven by only being £1 difference on a monthly subscription. The pricing model ‘discourages’ choosing a digital subscription.
^ yeah, what's that quote 'lies, damned lies and statistics'. Whatever the reality Mark has to work with it and I will be interested to see the proposal when the investment is launched
Trying to work out how to bridge the gap here.
The forum is not the cash cow you may think it is but it is a vital part of the whole.
First off, I definitely don't think it is a cash cow, and I'm not saying that there are more forum fans than mag fans. What I'm saying is that I don't think there is any data to support a view either way because of the way subs have historically been set up. My expectation is that forum fans have historically been pushed away from contributing, perhaps because you view them as wanting to get rid of the magazine. From my limited understanding of them, they don't. They just want a way to pay their way for the forum they consume.
To reiterate, I'm not pushing for forum only. I'm suggesting that you enable a mechanism for forum users to directly contribute financially for the service they value. And, as a side benefit, provide you with more data to base your business model on ( though, as above, I doubt the numbers will be huge)
The number of subscribers who pay just for the forum is not as many as you think.
I don't think it is big, or small. I don't think it is currently measurable. That's my only point. I'd love to know more, purely as a number exercise.
The forum itself is a self selecting data source.
Agreed.
I see exactly how many people engage with every part of the site and every piece of content.
This bit totally intrigued me. The only way I could see this being true is if online subscribers vastly outnumbered print subscribers and this rendered print numbers irrelevant. You know exactly who has clicked where online, but have limited data ( I presume none) on who reads which articles in the mag.
But then you say this:
Print subscribers alone outnumber digital only by more than 2:1 and that gap is widening. The subs growth right now is in print.
Which suggests that actually the opposite is true. Print subs outweigh online only subs. Which suggests any data about online usage only paints a limited picture of what is going on.
Anyway, I'm off track. To reiterate: I'm not pushing for a forum only, I was pushing for a forum payment option and richer data.
I think the important thing being missed here is Marks terminology
"but the forum alone is absolutely NOT a viable business. "
That doesn't mean it's not a viable entity, but it does mean it won't pay people's salaries. This forum if completely split from the magazine is perfectly viable, simple and relatively cheap.
However, stw is more the bigger picture with articles, writers etc.
I'd say the forum would/could make a few grand a year in its own right with subscribers, adverts etc. but that doesn't pay a team.
I don't think it is big, or small. I don't think it is currently measurable. That's my only point. I'd love to know more, purely as a number exercise.
I can't see why it wouldn't be measurable. Cookies. Server side tracking, Subscriber counts etc. You're talking about tracking subscribers who never/rarely download the mags and only visit the forum (hi!) vs subscribers who only download the mags (or have print deliveries) but never visit the forum. That'd depend if the system that tracks subscriptions is part of the same system that tracks user activity or not, or if the two systems can communicate the relevate data (without breaching GDPR).
I was pushing for a forum payment option
I think I only pay £25 a year.
I currently have a print and digital sub. I find I read the mag less and less with each passing issue and I'm embarrassed to say, occasionally I get a new one realising I haven't touched the previous one. It's still a wonderful thing, I love the smell, the articles are very well written, it's beautifully photographed and I have a nostalgia for print magazines. But I've been conditioned like everyone else to be able to access the exact piece of niche info or specific content I want at any given moment, at the click of a mouse.
Every now and then, an article in the mag catches my eye and really resonates, but tbh most of them don't. They're not bad of course, just not of particular interest to me. I will probably go to a digital subscription on my next renewal. Not because I will read the mag on line, but because it's the only way I can support the forum, which is what I really value.
I do wonder how many of your print subscribers are in the same boat when you're counting them in print v digital or magazine v forum stats?
I'm embarrassed to say, occasionally I get a new one realising I haven't touched the previous one
That totally describes me, which was why I recently dropped my subscription as I wasn’t reading the mag. I’ve picked it up again, mainly to contribute to the site for just a tenner a month.
I re-subscribed to print as I may as well get the mag for the little difference in the two subscription. If there was a noticeable difference then I’d probably be digital only …. And probably look at the digital magazine less than I do the physical!
Despite the view (which I may have misinterpreted) that the forum is not particularly viable - it’s actually the reason I subscribe to the mag. Drop the mag, I’d still come and pay for the forum and would probably still pay the same amount. Drop the forum and I’d probably stop all subscriptions.
Data of online activity doesn’t really represent the full picture of motivators and behaviour. Asking another genuine question - do STW really fully understand customer behaviour or just the data interpretation of it? Maybe a well written customer survey could present a different view ahead of major strategic changes for the business?
I don’t know if the forum could survive as an independent entity.
I use to be a regular contributor to a dpreview forum. One of the regulars got banned for posting photos. A bizarre rule for a photography forum. I think he was the user with the most posts for the whole sire and probably still is (43,000)
Anyway we all got the hump and moved to a new forum. It worked well for a while. Hundreds of us moved and we had great competitions and even made 7 books together. We had international meets the lot. But we only ever got smaller. No one new joined because once you’re just a just forum you are way harder to find.
No one new joined because once you’re just a just forum you are way harder to find.
True, but still way easier to find than a niche print magazine with very few stockists. Despite keeping an eye out for it. I've never seen a copy of STW magazine for sale in any bricks and mortar shop other than one localish but very rural bike shop.
One thing I’ve noticed here is that if you have a question about anything vaguely technical on almost any subject imaginable, there will be someone here with useful advice! That alone is so valuable but unless you’ve hung out here for a while you’d never realise it. It’s like Which magazine but not just consumer stuff!
As a digital subscriber I get the digital mag and can’t say I read it. I’ve just had a quick look at the June edition and, from my point of view, nothing in there is of any interest to me. I feel terrible saying that as this is people’s passion so it’s not from a quality of writing/photography point of view, just the topics have no relevance/interest to me and, frankly, if I’m going to spend some time reading something about biking, I’ll jump on a thread on here or a PinkBike article that I can choose of my liking, rather than what someone thinks I might be interested in. Disposable society and what not.
Not sure if that reflects badly on me, but my point is the mag isn’t any sort of draw to me.
And I also have an affinity to support as the mag is based daily local to me.
True, but still way easier to find than a niche print magazine with very few stockists.
@Mark how did things go after you stopped selling in WH Smith et al? I tend to find new magazines by just browsing one of the big magazine selling shops and seeing what's available. Did you find there was a drop off in new subscribers after you stopped stocking at newsagents or did numbers carry on as before?
Saying that, last time I went into a WH Smith specifically looking for magazines I ended up leaving with nothing. I'm not sure if I was just in the wrong mood or none of the subjects I'm interested in justify a magazine anymore but that was kind of unusual for me.
I think the important thing being missed here is Marks terminology
"but the forum alone is absolutely NOT a viable business. "
That doesn't mean it's not a viable entity, but it does mean it won't pay people's salaries. This forum if completely split from the magazine is perfectly viable, simple and relatively cheap.
However, stw is more the bigger picture with articles, writers etc.
I'd say the forum would/could make a few grand a year in its own right with subscribers, adverts etc. but that doesn't pay a team.
^^This^^
If you look at something like Pinkbinke, that was (back in the early 00´s) a sucessful forum, with a bolt on news news page and a few employees writing articles, fast forward 2 decades and it´s primarily a YT channel and podcast with the same thriving Forum. A forum does not pay the bills, it´s a route to generate interest and engagement but it´s the other forms of content that bring in sufficient income to support the enterprise.
Similar must apply for the whole Bike Radar, GCN, GMBN, MBR, MBUK outfits that seem to be based in the SW(?) around bath/bristol and presumably rose out of the ashes of the cycling print media boom of the 80/90s (total uninformed gueeswork of course). they´re all mostly online "content mills" now it seems to me. I did go in a WH Smiths the other day and couldn´t see any of the related titles (Or indeed ST)...
The Print mag may still have more subscription uptake (is that led by demographics? do people over about 45 prefer print?) but is serving up the same content digitally, more or less profitable? what´s the differnce in overheads/margin for print Vs PDF?
I seem to recall there being an option to subscribe to the mag, no option to subscribe to the forum,
I remember that discussion. It made no sense, because
To reiterate, I'm not pushing for forum only. I'm suggesting that you enable a mechanism for forum users to directly contribute financially for the service they value.
This already exists. It's called a digital subscription. What more do you want? You want to support the forum (which, I notice, you aren't) but don't want to read the magazine? Fine, so support the forum and ignore the mag. An annual digital sub is, what, £2.50 a month? How much is half a pint at your local? I've just looked and there's also a "choose your own price" (within reason) option so it could probably be had for less than that even, I've no idea how this works though.
I subscribe to (print+digital) SFX magazine. The retail cover price is £5.75 and whilst monthly rather than bi-monthly it doesn't come with a forum or merchandise discounts, and is backed by Future Publishing (3,000 staff, revenue £800M, net income £80M).
How do you envisage a "forum only" subscription would work? How much less than £2.50 would it have to be for you to buy into a forum only sub when the forum (with ads) is literally free to start with?
(Pinkbike) the same thriving Forum.
You sure? They have a lively comments section, but the forum is very quiet, compared to here.
Forum only subscription to me feels like a discount on Word because i didn’t want to draw pictures.
Or film only netflix, or photoshop without a RAW converter.
In a digital world the consumer not using a feature saves the supplier nothing. So why give a discount for it.
The availability of the magazine might drive a few people here. But it pays for staff, who also create free content, and that brings people here
Forum only subscription to me feels like a discount on Word because i didn’t want to draw pictures.
Or film only netflix, or photoshop without a RAW converter.
In a digital world the consumer not using a feature saves the supplier nothing. So why give a discount for it.
The availability of the magazine might drive a few people here. But it pays for staff, who also create free content, and that brings people here
Lol how is it free content if we pay for it and they also get paid for it?
You sure?
TBH no, I just assumed it was as busy as it was last time I bothered using it (quite a while ago now), if you say it´s dead I´ll Happily beleive you.
My point still stands though, PB is now a content mill, like all the other turn of the century MTB media outfits that are still going in some form or another, their roots matter less than fitting into the current cycling media consumption model which is mostly online, either on a smartphone or a PC...
The various brands use them to reach the punters through reviews and advertising, they make lots of YT other content, they write the odd online article (normally mirrored with a YT video) for those that still want to read, and they all seem to try their hand at podcasting, generally they don´t seem to be held back by the lack of a Print media offering.
My musing was more around the idea that the people who most value printed mags more are ´of a certain age´ and MTBing is generally pitched towards a younger demographic, where those (45+?) are a limited niche. SBC, Trek, etc want the disposable income of 15-35 year olds before Mortgage debt and parenthood robs them, they´ll take their Dad´s money too I´m sure but we´re not the core market. It might be my misinterpretation but I´ve always assumed that ST is a bit more targetted at the older rider, who inevitably come with different spending priorities and therefore advertiser appeal...
Mark´s stats probably capture the true reality of it, and this forum certainly isn´t the best way to gauge the overall picture, but if we´re collectively mulling the idea of investing in ST, and thus how it is going to grow/develop over the next decade or so, you kind of have to think about it in the broader context of the MTB/Gravel/cycling media market and what niche ST occupies today. Most importantly consider if that´s actually a growth area or not. I don´t think I´d be putting money in, soley on the basis of ageing MTBer´s nostalgia for paper and a healthy forum...
But I assume there´s a plan, if we register interest, I assume we find out?
Edit to be clear this is a reply to Weeksy
There is free content on this site and content that is subscriber only content. I’ll admit that as a subscriber i don’t have the best view as to which is which.
I think we can agree free isn’t the same as no one pays for it. It’s free to park at our local park. My parents get free bus travel. It’s free to sign up for facebook
I don’t know if the forum could survive as an independent entity.
The forum could probably survive as an independent entity. What it couldn't do is pay a dozen wages in the process, and in case you missed it STW is a business. (And as businesses go, I can't think of many others which not just permit but enable this degree of public criticism).
Despite many claims over the years of "well, I could do better," no-one to my knowledge has ever bothered to try. Certainly no-one has tried successfully, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I could almost certainly knock up a forum in a weekend which was technically better than STW; I'm sure both of my users would love it for the 3 months it was live before I didn't have any revenue to cover the hosting fees.
Cougar the only disagreement here is whether the forum could survive independently. I speculate it would be hard going but obviously have no idea. I’m not complaining about the status quo. I’ve been paying to be here since issue one and was on the Go Far Forum before that.
I speculate it would be hard going
Not really. Hosting fees would be a couple of hundred a year, DNS and site name/SSL about £25. That's for a decent level of bandwidth.
As long as it had a decent number of members, as a forum in a stand alone context this would be a doddle.
The only reason it's not, is because of the 'more' that stw has and wants.
Weeksy i realise I’m speculating here so i can’t argue that I’m correct. However no harm in debate.
I get that next week some one could recreate this place for a small amount of money. I’m just pointing out that having been through a similar process it didn’t work well long term. In the short term it was great. But in the longer term we slowly died as we had no real way of being found, so no way of gaining new members
Agreed and that's the tough part. I run a forum with 400,000 posts in 4 years and 1000 members, but only 50 or so regularly posting day to day, 200 intermittently.
Getting new users is really hard
SBC, Trek, etc want the disposable income of 15-35 year olds before Mortgage debt and parenthood robs them,
Blimey. That seems to be turning the accepted wisdom completely on its head. I thought it was all the fifty somethings rolling in cash and the young are seriously hard up through high house prices and low wages. I don't know many 15-36 yos who have £5k to blow on a bike unless it comes from mum and dad.
Sounds a bit disengenous to say, 'all in good time' but that's the crux of it.
Which takes me back to my original question, albeit put in a bit of a holding pattern by Mark.
STW works exactly because of the community and sense of belonging that the site, forum and/or mag instills in people. It’s a mag of the people, for the people and not driven my external “must achieve” financial pressures.
The problem has been with the message “join us and be part of the future” without a single clue of what ‘joining us’ means or ‘the future’ looks like. There’s surely no surprise that it’s created so much debate on the forum, which probably inspires and frustrates Mark and team in equal measure.
Could the announcement have better managed better? IMO probably but what we love about STW is that it’s a bunch of media focussed MTBers rather than slick journo types.
However, can we all wait for Mark’s “all in good time”? Of course we can. The STW is still what we know and love (clearly something slightly different to each of us).
Online safety act now means if you have over 70k unique users/month you must register and jump through a lot of legal and time consuming risk assessment hoops. Demonstrate moderation policies and procedures. It’s a legal obligation that has resulted in some forums closing compketely. As a company with staff it’s something we can manage. As an individual running a forum I’d think very carefully about taking all that on.
I don't know many 15-36 yos who have £5k to blow on a bike unless it comes from mum and dad.
I could point you to dozens of 21-30 year olds earning well into 6 figures. A couple of them ride too. I’m a little over 36 now but I certainly wasn’t scared to put 5k, and the rest, down on a bike at that age. Anything aproaching a mid range ebike wont give you much change from 5k either, and given how they are flying out the doors compared to regular bikes, I say there’s some merit to the above.
The last line of my post seems to have been lost.
STW have to make sure they don’t lose the opportunity now the excitement has been created. They may need to move quicker and be more forthcoming with information than maybe they had anticipated.
Or perhaps we’ve enlisted the services of experts who know how these things work?
what we have done is let everyone know what we plan to do in September. That’s it at this stage. All the legal and form filling and hmrc stuff happens before then. Between now and then there’s a lot of work to do. Even the date has been considered as well as the weeks running up to it. Could you, just maybe, give us a little credit that we have some idea as to what we are doing?
Will this work for folks outside the UK as well? I think there are quite a few of us.