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@dumbot. Just seen its a Highlander you are getting. Stick the xt 4 pots on it for sure. Hope wont cope...ask Iain who will be building up the bike what he would put on his...
I still don’t like them as much as Paul Klampers though!
Ah, someone else who has seen the light 😉
But back to the case in hand....Hopes all the way.
I’d take the Hopes and if they aren’t man enough sell them on as lightly used for decent money and buy Sram Code RSC’s.
I was uplifting on the weekend just gone and my mates SLX brakes randomly pull to the bar sometimes. He’s always bleeding the things to try and keep them working properly. Found the same with a few other shimano brakes - you just can’t tell if you’ll get a good set or a bad set (I also got a bad set of deores a while back). Even magazine reviews comment on xt variable bite point quite often as a bad thing on a bike (that’s ignoring the micro leak issue some shimano brakes get).
I fitted Code R’s on both bikes and it’s basically been fit and forget other than changing brake pads when required.
xt for me.. love the 4-pot ones
Just built a Megatower and went with the 4 pot XT with 203mm centre lock Icetech disks - best brakes I've ever had by far and I've tried most over the years.
More power and better modulation that previous generation Shimanos, no wandering bite point so far. Spent the weekend abusing them in wet and dry down everything at Dyfi and they performed perfectly throughout.
Don't think you'd be disappointed with either tbf, guess it comes down to how you like your brakes to feel/how much power you need.
By the sound of your bike I would go Shimano, as they are undoubtedly more powerful than Hopes.
Assuming you prefer on/off power vs modulation then Shimano are great.......as long as you get a good set I can see why people swear by them. I loved them until my last set of XTs which were great when they worked, but no amount of bleeding could solve the bite point issue.
My Code Rs have been faultless for the past 18 months but I know they are off the agenda.
There is a lot of talk about wandering bite point issues with Shimano brakes.
Either I've been lucky or found a knack, but of the five sets of the modern generation of Shimano brakes I've either never had, or got rid of the issue fairly easily with a top bleed.
Put it this way, I've never been tempted to try another brake.
Is it a draw now? Extra time.
Just in case people didn't read my first post, I am very familiar with Hope brakes I've run them for the past few years. My current bike has E4's and just sold a bike with V4's to make room for the incoming Highlander. I could rebuild, bleed and align them with me eyes shut.
I think what I really comes down to is a known quantity and reliability with Hopes but do they lack performance? or take a chance on the XT's and possible warranty issues.
Still on the fence picking splinters out my arse.
You really want he Cura 4s then - they have a Hope levels of feel but with more power.
Is it a draw now? Extra time.
Just in case people didn’t read my first post, I am very familiar with Hope brakes I’ve run them for the past few years. My current bike has E4’s and just sold a bike with V4’s to make room for the incoming Highlander. I could rebuild, bleed and align them with me eyes shut.
I think what I really comes down to is a known quantity and reliability with Hopes but do they lack performance? or take a chance on the XT’s and possible warranty issues.
Still on the fence picking splinters out my arse.
Flip a coin? 😀 You like Hope enough to have bought a couple of pairs, so go with what you know (and secretly know are the best 😉 )
I mean there you have 2 consecutive posts and opposed XT experience and my conundrum.
Tbh..I think its coming down to a coin toss.
Because can I **** make a decision.
Not sure if it helps, but I have the XT 4 pots and have none of the wandering bite point issues others have mentioned. They were rock solid in Morzine this year giving amazing modulation and bit when needed.
Normally I get through at least a set of pads in a week, but this year I don't think I even wore half way through a single set - mostly due to being able to brake harder and shorter.
Since you can't decide just get Hayes Dominions. I have had XT, Saint etc and have E4 on the 'duro bike but the Dominions on the trail bike are so much better
Sorry, I realise that doesn't actually help 😀
So would this thread really be about Skill on the Hill 😕 A lack of confidence perhaps leading to thoughts of having a pair of anchors on board.
Just a thought, just a muse....
They say speed is nothing without control, but which of the two affords better control ?.
If you follow the bumpf...Hope, as they bumpf promotes mystical skills of negotiating a course or run exactly, knowing every inch and picking the optimum line....
Let us compare Shimano with Hope caliper.
Currently, Hope is using some space age tech to machine more metal off their caliper, without sacrificing strength so they say.
Shimano on the other hand is pretty beefy in comparison. One chunky bit of alloy, left chunky.
Heat.
What happens to metal when it heats up ?. It becomes softer. Obviously not soft and runny, but at the level where it does soften(metallurgists help here please 🙂 ).
Look at the bridges, that hold two sides together. the metal is thin, and on Hope has cut outs and looks very machined.
Cold thats going to be rigid, and its function is to stop the two opposing sides pushing against the rotor and if hot, then there is more likelyhood that the hopes will flex apart(or try to.)
Just by the fact these connecting ridges are thinner, and sculpted, when warm will be more likely to flex, than the shimano brick
I've got all of their brakes. From the blacksmith made cable caliper, through C2, DH4, mini,mono etc etc now E4.
These brakes in their era had good to very good reviews that have a good reputation and are very solid in use. A few associated issues that were addressed, plastic pistons, gone was the musically tuned inner sleeve seen on the first mini pistons, but basically the same thing. The more powerful were all chunky.- First M4,C2 and DH4.
I can compare side to side. And as such am keeping a new set of 2007 mono m4's just in case.
@dyna-ti your forgetting the hopes and one piece while Shimano are two piece. Those not so thin bits on the hope are substantially bigger than two bolts.
Monobloc calipers came into being to get rid of the slight flex in normal 2 piece calipers under high stress situations.
The top level brembo motorbike calipers are monobloc. Hope calipers are monobloc. What's easier, flexing a single lump of alloy, or 2 lumps of alloy bolted together?
Anyway, if you're producing enough heat and braking so hard to get a hope caliper 'soft' then I look forward to seeing you on the next DH world cup. Or not, as DH racers don't brake...
“Look at the bridges, that hold two sides together. the metal is thin, and on Hope has cut outs and looks very machined.
Cold thats going to be rigid, and its function is to stop the two opposing sides pushing against the rotor and if hot, then there is more likelyhood that the hopes will flex apart(or try to.)
Just by the fact these connecting ridges are thinner, and sculpted, when warm will be more likely to flex, than the shimano brick”
Apart from the fact that the Hope monobloc caliper should be more rigid than a two piece caliper, the stiffness of aluminium will vary by less than 10% across the working temperature range of the brake.
Ok lets just bring it back,..
Could I specifically ask about newer xt m8120 version, if owners have had any issues?, I know previous models have had well documented problems and people will want to raise past grievances...
Honestly I think i want to give the XT's a go,..
Got the m8120 on my ebike, they seem pretty decent to me, No wondering bite point etc, quite powerful, but not as powerful as my sram code rsc.
your forgetting the hopes and one piece while Shimano are two piece. Those not so thin bits on the hope are substantially bigger than two bolts.
Ahh, but you're forgetting the two joining sides have large milled faces that are clamped against eachother. There is less to move than the Hopes. The early hopes maybe bear this out as they too are two piece.
Go for the XT's - a change is as good as anything.
E4s can be had for £135 an end excl, rotors, mount/adaptors and shifter mounts adaptors
Out of interest, where have you seen them for £135 an end? Cheapest I can see is £148 and probably not in stock.
I've e4s on my 'medium bike' and an XT m785 / deore mix on my hadtail. i get on with both but prefer the looks of the E4s. when the old Shimanos die i'll be replacing with Hopes.
It's down to feel I think. I've just taken xt m8020 of a new build after a week of riding in the peaks. Swapped them for hope tech v4s. Instanty felt better in every way.
I've had many Shimano over the years, deore, slx and saints. Sooner or later the seals would leak and I'd have to replace them. SLX were the worst when fitted on commuter bike. Replaced with hope and no issues since. I mostly use hope, although the winter singlespeed uses BB7, which have been utterly reliable.
Hope's hardware is much nicer and the rebuild ability a major bonus, that philips head screw on the XT lever is just crap, even the rear mechs have gone all allen key.
Hopes are consistent, you know what you're getting when you pull the lever.
Can't really recommend Shimano. I found a good price on a set of XTR M9020 brakes last year. Every few weeks they needed bleeding, leave a few weeks and there's no power, oil slowly leaking around the pistons, front brake pistons stick so keep on braking and howling after sustained use even after letting off the lever. So I returned them and they sent me a full M9120 set. Quite nice of them although I did request "anything but Shimano please". They feel amazing, when they work, unfortunately that was only about 2 rides and all the same issues are present. Except now the rear lever creaks badly as well, annoyingly not something a bit of lube sorts out either. They also weigh a ton. Had similar issues with others including M8000, M9000, M615. Got GRX brakes on the gravel bike which work great, but I'm on my second pair because a lever seal blew out on the first set.
I'd be looking elsewhere. Only stayed mostly with Shimano because they seem quieter and more powerful in the wet than some. My Guide RSCs work just fine, never need a bleed. Would quite like to try the Cura 4 piston. Not a huge fan of the feel of Hopes but if they're reliable...
Hope wont cope…
This is funny.
My E4s have coped fine for enduro races, uplift days, swiss and french alps, maderia, malaga and big ol' days in the Tweed Valley.
They also work fine under the finger of much faster riders than me.
Oh shitballs, now I'm back on the fence again.
God damn it. :/
Definitely not Sram. Does that help?!
E4's from £132 at Winstanleys.
XT's for me all day long.
I've got them and they're brilliant, brutal power if you want it but also more easy to control than saint brakes. Had a slightly variable bite point on the rear to start with but a very thorough bleed sorted that issue. The lever shape really works for me as well.
E4's just lack power for me. I wouldn't feel as confident using them on the steep stuff in south wales I regularly ride. Quite a few friends rave about the V4's though.
I bought hope e4's off the back of the various fan boys advice on here a few years ago, and found they were nowhere near as good as the hype would suggest - yes they were reliable, but I had no reliability problems with my previous/subsequent shimano/sram/magura brakes anyway, yes they are very well made and you can get spares for years, but ultimately they lacked power compared to the competition.
They do however hold their value well, when I sold them a few years later for near enough the same price I paid for them.
"Hope wont cope…
This is funny.
My E4s have coped fine for enduro races, uplift days, swiss and french alps, maderia, malaga and big ol’ days in the Tweed Valley.
They also work fine under the finger of much faster riders than me."
Maybe mine are broken but you have to properly yank them to really slow down on anything steep. This yanking over a long ride gives proper arm pump. For instance I really struggled on the bottom of Ponduro to control/have faith in the bike (which is probably part of the issue, if you know you can stop you are more likely to not stop??) whereas with previous Zees that wasnt a problem...
This review perfectly reflects my experience
https://www.perpetualdisappointment.co.uk/2018-hope-tech-e3-long-term-review/
I know some people rave about them (Trev W was particularly emphatic about them) but I have a different, personal experience and so have many others.
Tin foil hat time..."not all e4 are the same, i got a friday afternoon pair"
From reading this thread you'd think Shimano has the worst QC going - don't understand it myself, most of the guys in our riding group run Shimano's (and have done for as long as I remember) from Deore to XT's and none of us have had issues with them - no leaking seals, no wandering bite points.
It can't be bad luck that some folk get bad sets time after time? Original set duff, replacement set duff ...
If anything Hope have a pretty bad rep with us - one of the guys bought a set just before we went to the Alps and they were nothing but problematic, lacked power and needed bleeding almost daily.
This review perfectly reflects my experience
https://www.perpetualdisappointment.co.uk/2018-hope-tech-e3-long-term-review/
/blockquote>That review is bang on correct - in my experience.
I was looking for reviews of the 4 pot brakes last year when a bike I was considering had them on and this was the most comprehensive I found at the time. It was a Rallon I was looking at which specced GX drive chain and XT brakes. Based on this review, being once bitten twice shy with my previous set of M8000 brakes (which I had upgraded to as I liked previous Shimano brakes so much) plus MMX compatibility I was going to swap out my existing Codes for the XTs if I had bought the bike.
It's a tough call as if you get a good set the XTs will be great.
FWIW I have a set of Shimano disc brakes on my road bike. They have been faultless over the past 2 years.
This review perfectly reflects my experience
https://www.perpetualdisappointment.co.uk/2018-hope-tech-e3-long-term-review/
/blockquote>That review makes a big deal about the price of Hope's, when in this case either will be the same price with the build. And the article start by say they were replacing 3 x warranties set of XT's.
And also we have the recent enduro mag review of the latest XT's, saying pretty much the same as pink bike. Wandering bite point, it's not a made up problem...but I've no real world experience of how bad/scary it is.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/shimano-xt-m8100-four-piston-brakes-test/
I'm sure I'll make a decision...eventually.
Most XT brakes since the M785 series I've tried have had the wandering issue, sometimes it's an annoying niggle, other's its downright scary! I've got E4's on both bikes at the minute and can't see me changing them, enough power for me at 75kg with 180/180mm rotors and good modulation, they look ace too.
There's some speculation that the wandering bite point problem on shimano brakes is caused by the mineral oil being too viscous in colder weather.
I've never experienced it, so I wouldn't know, but it sounds plausible ish.
Ah balls, the bike builder just mailed asking what brakes I want.
Ah balls, the bike builder just mailed asking what brakes I want.
Reply with: "Surprise me."
I did, shunning all responsibility...just like in real life.
Not a bad idea! At least you won't be disappointed with which ever you end up with now 🙂
Surprise! Hope front anodised red and Shimano rear