[Closed] Santa Cruz nomad 27.5 worth the extra money over 2015 Orange Alpine 160 27.5???

The Nomad, although chunker, is not a particularly 'flickable' bike.

I'd race the SB95 myself.

In fairness I'm 6'3" and it would be easier to throw it around than the SB95 carbon

It was a nice ride but is it worth £1000 extra over the Orange Alpine 160??

You really need to demo both before buying. I'm a huge Orange fan and was left extremely underwhelmed by the Santa Cruz I recently demo'd.

Do you think the SB95 would stand up to it??

I like the New Alpine 160 and whilst the Nomad was a nice bike it didn't blow me away.

Plus you don't have to worry about an Orange I guess. Owned a couple of single pivots but never an orange

Hob Nob is right. The Nomad is a long bike with a low BB so it's hardly going to be "flickable" whatever that means?

An Enduro 650b or even 29" sounds like it would fit the description of what you want better.

Do you think the SB95 would stand up to it??

Yes, though you might need some sturdier wheels.

I'm finally writing a review of my Banshee Spitfire after the best part of a year with it. It really has been bloody brilliant. It's interesting that initially it felt like quite a tank, monster trucking its way over everything with bigger wheels, 160mm Pike and the the magical back end that feels like far more than 140mm.

Now that I've got it tweaked to perfection it is very flickable despite the long wheelbase and slack head angle - partly from running less monstrous tyres (amazing how much grip you get from a bigger wheel and really good suspension), partly from running quite light rebound damping so it's easy to get off the ground, partly from swapping to wider bars and shorter (effective) stem length.

The rougher the terrain, the better it performs. If you want a longer travel version then the Rune is very similar but 160mm at the back. I don't have a problem with carbon frames but they are rather a lot of money for what I consider a fairly insignificant weight saving (might make a difference if you're trying to podium on a race but I'm far from that quick) and although they're probably stronger in terms of longterm fatigue failure resistance they're more prone to crash damage. And the manufacturing process is not terribly nice for anyone. New Alpine looks great! I'd pay the extra for a CCDBA to get the most out of the single-pivot suspension.

I like the adjustable geometry on the Banshees because it changes the feel so much. I don't change it often but it's great to drop the Spitfire to sub 66 deg HA and ground scraping BB for downhill stability on uplift days and then bring it back up for more pedal clearance and flickability on my home trails.

Well I guess an Enduro 650b is what I'm after. Something that will cope with the overly rough stuff a bit better but still pedal reasonably well

Not considered the SB6c? There is certainly a lot of choice out there currently.

Only you can decide if the Nomad is worth the extra money. For me it would be, as I don't like Oranges, or the way single pivots ride. So most bikes would be worth the extra, your own opinion of course may differ.

The Nomad, as said is a big, long bike, that's not very playful, but it is fast, so would be good for the DH racing you want to do. I may (as a Nomad owner) question whether it's too much bike for UK Enduro racing. Something shorter travel, snappier handling & responsiveness might serve you better.

The banshee sounds good and it's a brand I've not looked at in fairness.

I managed to get the SB95 for half price new in a shop and it's my first carbon MTB so I'm still pretty nervous about it but it wasn't quite so hard to justify as it was 3k instead of 6k. I've recently changed the wheels to a chris king on cx ray spokes with stans flow rims which has made a difference but it's still 140/130mm trail bike more so.

Think the real problem is that I've got this shiney build kit sat in my spare room and I'm itching to get it on something

I should point out that I will intend on taking it to bike park wales (and the like) and a few local small DH spots, hence looking at the chunkier end of the enduro market.

I like the sb6 but don't think it will be as strong as a nomad, plus it's not supposed to be available as frame only till July time -ish

Hob Nob is right. The Nomad is a long bike with a low BB so it's hardly going to be "flickable" whatever that means?

The Alpine is WAAAAY longer than the Nomad.

If I'm right a Large alpine 160 27.5 is roughly the same size as an XL Nomad???

My new medium Alpine 650 is 35mm longer in the top tube than my old 18 inch alpine definitely rides more planted.

No, it's bigger. I've just looked. The new Alpine is a massively long bike.

The Alpine isn't WWAAYY longer than the Nomad, the TT is (near enough) the same.
Wheel base ins't far off either IIRC, but I can get & give you exact measurements on Large on Wednesday when I'm back in the shop as we've got both.

The medium Alpine is 42mm longer than the medium Nomad, in terms of bike geometry, that's quite a lot longer. TT length doesn't matter as it doesn't tell the full story, again the reach on the Alpine is considerably longer than the Nomad.

1212mm wheelbase is in the realms of downhill bikes.

Have not noticed the extra length in the wheel base to much when riding, as you say it is quite a bit longer but still climbs just as well as my old alpine and descends even better now 😉

That would be great goldenwonder cheers bud

Could you also have a look at bike weights if you get chance??

To be fair I demoed an XL Nomad and size of that seems similar on paper to a large Alpine.

Felt good but wouldn't want to go any bigger to an XL Alpine.

But wheelbase will also vary depending on fork used, so will vary from bike to bike depending on the build.
Chain stay length & BB height will also dramatically affect the characteristics of the bike, but as I said I can get accurate measurements when I've got them both in front of me later in the week.

1212mm wheelbase is in the realms of downhill bikes.

That is a big bike! My medium Spitfire is 1170mm long and I have no idea how to ride fast enough to exceed its limits. I'd like to see how fast it can handle the rockiest stuff at BPW - when I was there last Sunday it was carrying more speed through the rough than all the other 6" bikes with us, despite my manflu holding me back.

L Alpine 160AM was 33LB on our digital scales.
Nomads are lighter, but by how much depends on the spec. We've built them quite easily to 28lb if you're prepared to spend!

[i]Do you think the SB95 would stand up to it??[/i]

Since you own it already, try it? 🙄

I wonder how much difference there is in frame weights then as my crossmax enduro wheelset should shave some weight along with the 160mm pike solo airs compared to the AM Alpine. I guess my build would be closer to the RS Alpine with Renthal carbon bars and Apex stem etc.

Hopefully with a wheelbase that long ill be going bloody quick but more comfortable than my canyon torque ex vertride which is getting sold. Nice bike but found it a little short on reach even with a 620mm tt length. Find myself having to consciously move my weight backwards.

I will try the sb95 for some smoother enduros next year but won't be entering the MiniDH races on it, lol

Chute, you don't buy an Alpine to care about weight anyway. The geometry will see to that.

I wouldn't want to ride a 28lb Nomad in the Alps anway, it would have some heavy duel plies and wheels attached. As that is too light for it's intended purpose, I'd also rather have that weight in the frame as opposed to having to bang it on at the wheels.

My alpine medium sitting at 29.9llbon the digital scales not to bad weight.

350 ncr forks
1x10 hope trex
middleburn cranks
e 13 trsr rims hope hubs
hope brakes
renthal apex stem carbon bars
cane creek db air cs
schwalbe magic mary super gravity front
Hans dampf rear.
No dropper post as yet

In my opinion Orange bikes stopped being good by comparative standards about 10 years ago, the mountain bike world has moved on a huge distance whilst Orange have stood very very still. I know lots of Brits still love them and thats fine by me but I would not have one given to me !

Not sure I would choose a Nomad either and the Pivot Mach 6 I demoed was very ordinary and not worth anything like its £5k price. I've played around on a top of the range carbon Foxy, it had promise but could not be pushed too hard because the loony distributors have left it shod with Maxxi Ardents which were useless in anything other than a straight line. I would also avoid anything with an Intense badge, they have got to be one of the most overrated, expensive brands there is.

Sorry I could not say, try this or that, its the dogs do dahs but I'm still searching for a top notch enduro bike.

That's not bad at all element for 29.9lbs.
My large sb95 carbon is the same weight!

As long as it still pedals well the weight isn't so much of an issue but I would like it to be as close to 30lbs as possible whatever I end up with. It's true weight isn't everything and it's easier to loose a few lbs off my arse but heavy bikes are hard work and largely a result of poor choices for the Enduro segment any way.

Any thoughts on the new Devinci Spartan alloy or carbon?? Looks pretty solid full carbon frame for £2100

http://www.bikeactive.com/transition-patrol-frame-2015-c2x14677526

Don't know if it's any good, Transition seem to make good bikes though.

Try a Pivot Mach 6. I bloody love mine. But pb2 wasn't so taken with it, so best thing to do is demo all you can, different stokes for different folks and all that. I demoed the Mach 6 and wanted it right away.

In my opinion Orange bikes stopped being good by comparative standards about 10 years ago, the mountain bike world has moved on a huge distance whilst Orange have stood very very still. I know lots of Brits still love them and thats fine by me but I would not have one given to me !

I disagree. These are still very relevant weapons of fell destruction.

 

pb2 - Member 
In my opinion Orange bikes stopped being good by comparative standards about 10 years ago, the mountain bike world has moved on a huge distance whilst Orange have stood very very still. I know lots of Brits still love them and thats fine by me but I would not have one given to me !

The biggest load of bs I've heard on here for a long time....you obviously don't have a clue about bike geometry then do you..

Long story short, hired both a carbon Nomad and (begrudgingly) a Five from Alpine Bikes at Inners in September. Next year I will be getting a Five.

Well I guess an Enduro 650b is what I'm after. Something that will cope with the overly rough stuff a bit better but still pedal reasonably well

I have a carbon Enduro 29 and it certainly does what you are after. It's all the bike I could ever need and then some.

I'd be considering an Alpine Five if I were you. It ticks all the boxes you're after, and is the best bike in the whole of Oranges quiver.

Nah don't want another 29er for the more aggressive rides.
Has to be 650b especially as everything I've got to build in 650b

Going to demo an Orange alpine 160 27.5 next weekend round my local (ish) FOD trail centre routes. Sunset bikes have been pretty cool and I've got it for the weekend so plenty of time to get to know it.

Thinking about trying a pivot Mach 6 afterwards tho

I'd get a knolly warden, and I'm a Santa Cruz rider.

I looked at them knolly's they are right tanks just like transitions

Pb2 - wtf are you on!?

Maybe we should nominate you to be chief tester at whatmtb lmao!

Gotta say those 2015 Transitions look reet tasty and like they're well sorted even before looking at the geo of them.

Knolly warden looks lurvely but yes look a tanks worth but sometimes it is nice having a bike that feels solid than these carbon skitty handling 25lbs 160mm machines.

Not sure its nice having a heavy bike is it?

I didn't say heavy though did I, just a bike that feels planted than sketchy on handling just because it weighs a nats pube.

[i]Nah don't want another 29er for the more aggressive rides.[/i]

Mate, a lad I ride with runs a 29er FS - he is the fastest of all of the riders I know, top 10 on most local Strava descents (and these include many of super-steep Tweed Valley routes). I rode it once and set PR's both up and down.

If you want to buy another bike, buy one. But you don't need one.

30 pound with dh tyre on mine - felt heavy...

6.75lbs w/CTD. Ti hardware, see. Sold, but not what I'd call heavy.

Got to be honest those knolly bikes aren't really good lookers are they? Personal opinion and all.....

Again I've got some solo air 160mm Pikes and mavic crossmax enduro wheels sat in my spare room so has to be 650b

Those transitions look alright and usually ride well.

Don't really get why people slag off oranges, if they were that crap people wouldn't buy them and then they would have to do something else

Fair enough. Personal taste and all that.
Sb6c?
Pivot Mach 6?
Nicholai ion?

It's going to be a big shock seeing an Orange bike, after nearly 3 years out of the UK I've only seen 2 and they were team sponsored DH bikes. They just don't seem to translate out of the UK (and yes we have mud and rain in the rest of the world) aside from that I've seen a lot of happy Nomad owners.

That's an interesting one the Nicholi ion....

Ever ridden one? Never seen one on the trails.

Defo going to have a look at a pivot Mach 6 and possibly devinci spartan.

Kinda want to not make a rash decision and only buy what I've tried. Although I've seen some deals on pivot Mach 6 frames for £2100 from £2500 which is a couple of hundred quid more than the alpine 160...........................

The ions an FSR so a bit more active. The pivot is a DW which is a little taught for my liking. The sb6c is an interesting one IMHO. I've ridden a SB66 and it was pretty good but this [i]could[/i] be exceptional.

Don't really get why people slag off oranges, if they were that crap people wouldn't buy them and then they would have to do something else

A lot of people here seem to want to be seen saying the 'right' thing. That, or they're the type to take what someone else has said and then repeat it as their own. 😮 😉

Don't really get why people slag off oranges, if they were that crap people wouldn't buy them and then they would have to do something else

I have had a Five now for nearly three years and it's time for a new bike Five has been great but fancy a change, never going back to a Specialized the 2010 Enduro I had fell to pieces, demo'd a 5010 a Bronson and a Nomad 650b the Bronson being my choice the Nomad no doubt would be amazing at uplifts but just felt a bit dull. So I have 2 bikes I fancy a Yeti SB6c or the new Ibis Mojo Hd3.

My finger hovered over the buy button for a new nomad frame for quite a while but then I decided that the additional cost of forks, wheels and a stealth dropper was a price not worth paying. For the type of trail riding I do 26" will do the job. Longer faster trails with more gnar a 27" will do better but the in reality these trails have all been ridden before when 26" was king.

Bike geometry is key as is personal preference. My frame made in 2009 has a 66.5 degree head angle, a 23.5" top tube but with excellent reach as the seat tube is quite upright. A low 13.5inch bb and nice short chainstays. It goes down better than it goes up but it will go up most things well enough. It has cable routing for a dropper and for a front mech, if you want it, and iscg tabs. So other than bigger wheels there is nothing out there offering me anymore than I already have.

When it comes time to change it I'll be going the direct sale route to either yt or commencal. Everything else is just too bloody expensive, even Orange. Alpine 160 does look good though!

30 pound with dh tyre on mine - felt heavy...

That's because you were running dual plies.

Generally for UK enduro decent single ply or the Schwalbe 1.5 ply is fine.

It's better to run as light wheels/tyres as you can for the money you have than run a lighter frame. Mass centralization, unsprung weight and rotating mass etc.

A 30lb bike with lighter wheels/tyres feels a lot more sprightly than a 30lb bike laded with dual plies.

So because I don't like Orange I am A)Dumb B)Inexperienced C)Talking bull sh*t D)All of the former.

Well this is a forum, forums are for expressing opinions and thats my opinion and yes I have owned more than one Orange plus Trek, Spesh, Intense, Turner,On One, Cranfield and demoed more bikes than I can recall.

Just so we are clear, I'm not saying Orange are crap or make bad bikes, what I said was their designs have not moved on as much as other brands and as a result I would not buy one.

If you think their single pivot designs are the dogs do dahs thats fine by me, if you think Orange are best bikes in the world thats also fine by me, its your money and your choice but don't shout me down because I have a different view to yours !

ps I honestly have not bought or read what WhatMTB in the past 8 or more years so I cannot comment on its content, unlike you 😉

In my opinion Orange bikes stopped being good by comparative standards about 10 years ago

That's the bit that did you. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if you don't like x or y that's fine but to state the above is wrong and makes you look silly.

When I was in the market recently I thought Orange bikes looked crude by today's standards. I'm sure they ride well enough and that's the main thing of course, but they do look seriously dated now. They looked a bit dated 10 years ago if I'm being honest. Rightly or wrongly that made them a non-starter for me.

I'm not about to defend the look of Orange bikes as some will like, some will not but I don't really see how any design is dated or not as looking through WMB there only seems to be 4 different 'looks' for suspension design. They all look the same and similar to how they've looked for years. The only difference is they are getting longer and slacker.

thats because you were running dual plies

Well duh!

That was for 3 weeks in the Alps-back home with tubeless same bike is 28 (Newmad btw)

but I don't really see how any design is dated

For me it's the detail design and materials used. A bit like cars. They don't fundamentally change but they improve incrementally over time. The development on some bikes over the last decade was quite obvious to me, but the Orange 5 looks exactly like it did 10 years ago to me. Okay so the top tube is bent now.

I presume the geometry has evolved appropriately, but I simply couldn't see past a bike that appeared to be living in the past in most other respects. Obviously could be my loss if it happens to be the best bike in the world. But that's how I saw it and therefore it missed my shortlist as a result.

In short it looks like a crude tool to me, regardless of how effective it might be.

If you wanted to make a single pivot full-sus out of aluminium, I can't see why you wouldn't make it like Orange do?

Has to be 650b especially as everything I've got to build in 650b

You've only got wheels and forks!!!

In the opinion of myself, i'd sell both these items rather than spend something like 20,000 pennies on a new frame. Especially considering you already have a bike that will do what you want the new bike to do.

Had a MK.1 Nomad- the dream bike I'd lusted after. It was a dog. Sold it after 6 months. Replaced with an Alpine which I still have 3 years later.

Which is to say what makes a bike good is subjective.

[i]chiefgrooveguru - Member
If you wanted to make a single pivot full-sus out of aluminium, I can't see why you wouldn't make it like Orange do?[/i]

And therein lies is another aspect of Orange that does not work for me, it looks like something me and my mates knocked up in my garage with a bit of sheet ally and a TIG welding kit. That look is the same look I first saw 12 or 13 years ago when I started riding. Now before you all accuse me of "bike vanity" if I thought it was the best bike I would not be too worried by its looks so I can only assume the Alpine riders enjoy the bike enough to forgive its "built in a shed" appearance.

As stated above its a hugely subjective topic 🙂

I like the industrial quality's of my Alpine 650
There is quite a lot of fine detail gone into the frame make up but most people still see them as boxy sheet ally bikes which is a shame.
I've been lucky enough to have owned oranges for the best part of 19 years and in that time they have evolved ;-).

I really like how most Oranges look - form following function, really pure industrial design. When you think about the forces going through a frame all the big monocoque sections and gussets mixed with some traditional round tubes makes a lot of sense. This looks made for ragging:

[img] [/img]

I also really like these:

[img] [/img]

Very clever engineering in there to make a 160mm alloy frame that light and dare give it a ten year warranty!

And these:

[img] [/img]

Round tubes and machined gussets at the front with square tubes at the back for strength, stiffness and tyre/drivetrain clearance.

And my personal bike:

[img] [/img]

Similar structural thinking to the Nicolai but with hydroforming instead of machined gussets up front and ribbed chainstays for even greater strength/stiffness.

And I bet everyone fabricating these alloy frames enjoys their job a hell of a lot more than those making carbon frames...

I'm in the Nomad camp, no surprise given that I own it. But looking at it, sitting on it & riding it just make me happy. Orange fives are good to ride but I'm not the biggest fan of the looks of that swing arm. The 650b with 1*11 does look nice in the flesh though, cleans it up a treat

looks like a crude tool to me, regardless of how effective it might be.

And there is the fork in the road. Do you stand your bike against the garage door and take photos of it or do you ride it and think from up there it looks just the same as most other bikes you've ridden? A bike is first and foremost a tool is it not?

yes it is a tool but its nice if you like looking at it too

And therein lies is another aspect of Orange that does not work for me, it looks like something me and my mates knocked up in my garage with a bit of sheet ally and a TIG welding kit. That look is the same look I first saw 12 or 13 years ago when I started riding. Now before you all accuse me of "bike vanity" if I thought it was the best bike I would not be too worried by its looks so I can only assume the Alpine riders enjoy the bike enough to forgive its "built in a shed" appearance

I would love to see anyone on STW 'knock up' a bike that looks even vaguely like an Orange Five in their shed. Regardless of just how sorted the geometry is, they're incredibly well built.

If they were that easy to build, then the market would be flooded with home engineers knocking up their own. I've seen a few home made bikes, and they all look a bit shit. The Segment, Five, Alpine Five and Alpine 160 look how bikes should look.

[i]The Segment, Five, Alpine Five and Alpine 160 look how bikes should look.[i][/i]

In your opinion !

Not mine and not a whole lot of other people. If you closet Ludites like Orange from a visual point it just proves beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 😀

Well said wiganer, but don't hold your breath for the Santa Cruz owners to get it.

More pivots and more money = better for some people.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

True, but that makes it sound as though it's down to free will. In fact, most of us admire what we've been conditioned to admire and things are often labelled ugly simply because they don't conform to the current fashion.

Personally I like the look of my Five. That's partly because it's a bright neon colour and I like bright colours. It's partly because it doesn't look like every other bike and I value originality over conformity. But it's mostly because when I look at it I'm reminded of all the fun we've had. I certainly wouldn't try to claim that it's beautiful in any objective way though.

Nothing wrong with those Oranges. A bit heavy maybe but the geo is better than most. Funny thing is their design suits composite construction more than any other design. I appreciate the made in the UK thing but a composite version would be insanely light and would really open up their customer base.

The only downside of the non linkage actuated single pivot is the shock position is limited. Regardless the suspension has far fewer basic flaws than SC's counter link design.