[Closed] Salsa component price increases

Assuming you're right thats many times the cost of doing it in Taiwan, and not because the Taiwan welding and finishing is inferior, I'd wager its probably better

But they don't need to bother with minimum wage, statutory sick pay, NI and all that guff.

While another thread carps on about the gig economy and how terrible it is for the folk doing it, when an entire country does it so you can get a cheap frame it's a bargin!

At what point is someone in the UK going to start welding these together, with the same geometry, lets say £300 for labour plus VAT, lets say ballpark £450 and have a business.

Go on, do it then 😀

If it was really that simple, don't you think someone in the UK would be doing it?

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

Surly and Salsa, who I'm sure you know are owned by the same company, aren't really competing with companies like Shand or even companies like Cotic or Stanton (I'm speaking about supplying quality steel frames, rather than the intended use of the frame).

Salsa are a big bike brand who are part of a much bigger company who sell massive numbers of frames and parts all over the world. Economies of scale aside, they make their products in countries that pay lower wages than the U.K. They also have the advantage of buying their raw materials in the same currency that they sell their finished products and that currency happens to the the currency of their largest market. (though if exchange rates move it may make their products harder to sell in some countries). They don't own the equipment used to make their products or employ the people who make them and that equipment and those people make bike bits for other companies or brands.

I'm forgetting what point I'm trying to make but:

comparing the price of an inbred with a Fargo is like comparing something that is cheaply made from a 10 year old design to something modern and of a higher quality.

Comparing salsa with a small British frame builder is unfair to the small British builder. Salsa and surly do a great job of giving the impression that they are small scale, but they aren't and I can't help thinking part of the price they charge is for that image. They do design good bikes that are mass produced by third parties and make more money from each frame than an independent builder in the U.K.

Perhaps frames could be made more cheaply in the U.K., but I can't see how. Are salsa and surly overpriced? Probably. A cheaper, comparable alternative to the bike you are looking for from Salsa may be available from Genesis.

It seems discounted 2016 bikes and frames are as good as we are gonna get for a long time, 2017 rrp all heading up. I've just bitten the bullet and ordered a frame I've lusted after for a long time on sale from ctbm (not salsa) as it felt like it was now or it would forever be too expensive ... Anyway that's the excuse I gave the mrs

as famously said a rise in tariffs and a collapse in the pound will lead to the new British Industrial revolution where we teach 10 year olds to weld frames we still can't afford...

A cheaper, comparable alternative to the bike you are looking for from Salsa may be available from Genesis.

Have you seen the price of a Datum frame? Gone up from £999 to £1500 for 2017... 🙁

Comparing salsa with a small British frame builder is unfair to the small British builder.

I don't disagree on the economies, but something I like about Salsa (and Cannondale, to a lesser extent) is how quickly they'll change models, change model lines, come up with wacky new stuff, etc. etc. In some ways they act like a smaller company in that respect. There must be costs associated with that.

Surly steel frames are about £500.
Spa and Genesis about the same, maybe a smidge less, often with more expensive tubing.

Salsa about £1000.
Made in the same place, from the same material, by the same people as Surly frames.

If the others can do it, so can Salsa.

I've never heard a believable explanation of why Salsa frames are pricier.
Same with Santa Cruz.

The only explanation is snob tax.

Same with Santa Cruz.
The only explanation is snob tax.

At the risk of going off topic, who should we compare Santa Cruz with- Ibis, Yeti? Certainly not Specialized or Giant

Santa Cruz are pretty much a mainstream MTB brand in the States, with prices that have always reflected that.

How is the 'quality' of a Salsa frame any different from that of a Surly, Spa, Genesis etc?

who should we compare Santa Cruz with- Ibis, Yeti? Certainly not Specialized or Giant

So why are the Salsa frames more expensive than the Surly frames?

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

They listen to a tiny market. How many Fargos do you see out and about? I don't think I've seen one in the real world, though plenty in photos on here. The market for that sort of bike is niche, while there are loads of Inbreds around and they cater for a wide spectrum of riders.

Even if On-one did decide to sell a Taiwanese built frame direct to the consumer to the spec of the Fargo, unless it was plucked from a factory catalogue it would have to cost more than an Inbred to cover the same level of R&D as any other frame for significantly fewer sales. And probably fewer again, since the sort of people that buy this sort of frame tend to want to be part of a 'scene' and on something a bit nicer than an On-one. Let's call it £350, a reasonable mark up over the Inbred, a frame that's had all its R&D done and paid for years ago and shifts in high volumes.

Then build it in the UK, covering all the extra costs of increased labour, increased rent, increased tax. And you think you can do all that for the same price? That's living on another planet.

So why are the Salsa frames more expensive than the Surly frames?

because they use second hand scaffold pipes for the surlys !! 😀

From the many I've seen I'd say that Salsa tend to have fancier tubing and are better finished than the Surlys. As an example, Salsa decals are under a clear coat. Surlys are often stuck onto the paint (can be an advantage if you want to buy some).

I can't say whether or not that's worth the additional cost, but I'd agree that Salsa seem very over-priced given you could buy a one-off full custom frame for the same or less.

If you use a estimated 6 hours of labour at £50, plus £100 for materials it's not unreasonable for a UK-made frame to cost £400, add 35% margin plus 20% VAT and you get a selling price of £770 for direct sales and £1150 retail - if anyone thinks they can make frames in the UK and sell them for less than £500, dream-on!

True about the lacquer, but it's not £500 worth!

They're both cro-mo with a bloody silly name.
If they were anything fancier, they'd tell you.

As to the detailing, I'm not sure.
Surly frames seem to be simple, but often have a lot going on at second glance - lots of flared and manipulated tubes, nice detailing.

I have no problem with Snob Tax btw, if people wish to pay extra to own a certain brand, fine.
We all do it to some extent.
Just be honest about it.

Agree with you on the custom thing.
No idea why people pay more for an otp frame than they would for a custom one.

At the risk of going off topic, who should we compare Santa Cruz with- Ibis, Yeti? Certainly not Specialized or Giant

Just spotted that - in the US they're priced the same as Specialized and Giant. They don't give favourable rates to Jungle to import them, however, so over here they're much more and it's been a triumph of marketing on Jungle's part to get them to be compared to Ibis and Yeti (who are, arguably, marketing triumphs themselves).

Big fan of both Surly and Salsa. I like the purpose like nature of Surly, and Salsa are a bit more refined. My take on the QBP marketing strategy is:

Surly if you like to go slow
Salsa if you like to go fast
All City if you are just too Hipsta'

They are expensive, especially compared to the likes of Genesis but are better thought out than Genesis - even though that gap is closing. Also a lot of the innovations in recent years have come from Surly and Salsa;
- fat bikes for the masses
- 3 bolt enabler cages for bike packing
- Off road drop bars
- 29er plus
- 29er plus drop bar
- urban single speeds
- alternator style drop outs
- Single speed option on adventure bikes as standard

They listen to a tiny market. How many Fargos do you see out and about? I don't think I've seen one in the real world, though plenty in photos on here. The market for that sort of bike is niche, while there are loads of Inbreds around and they cater for a wide spectrum of riders.

On-one makes a dozen of steel frames, no one is really adventure-oriented in the way Salsa is.
Just make one more and see what happens, how bad can it be? Genesis tried that way, and the Vagabond went sold out in June (despite offering the frame in purple and white...).

If they can make a 200£ steel frame (Inbred) what would be the cost for the same frame with a shorter reach and a lower BB?
I don't think you have to R&D a lot, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, just make a copy and use your brand to sell at the right price.

[quote=ciquta ]It may be a niche but it's the most succesful niche. How many bikes went sold out in april?How many do you think they made?

Difficult for us gauge in the Uk because of the distribution issues with Salsa in the last few years

How many bikes went sold out in april?

How many were available? If they made 2,000 for the year (numbers based on another niche bike, the Trek Farley) for the whole world then that's not such a big deal. Compare this with 10,000 for the 2015 Cannondale Flash, for example, and all the other normal hardtails out there and you realise that it's a drop in the ocean. Selling out of a fifth of the number of available bicycles of something at a similar price point isn't such a big deal.

How many do you think they made?

I know they sold them all at full price early in the season while onone is still struggling to get rid of its jewels for 200£...

It's not about the brand, whistles and bells... they really do things others can't even understand.

This is where Surly/Salsa are successful: they listen to the market, and this has nothing to do with rent and heating costs

eh? I was responding to someone saying that they could bash out a steel hardtail for £450 and have a business. I was illustrating why they couldn't.

And you're right, QBP do listen to the market, they have a massive network of dealers who tell them what sells and what doesn't. And that's why'll run out of Fargos, because hardly anyone wants them, it's too high risk (niche). They'll bring some in and sell out what they have. Job done. They don't have an unlimited pot of cash for this stuff so they'll be maximising the return on their investment as much as they can.

The Shand Drove isn't right. You need to get rid of that road PF bottom bracket, and put a standard one in, you need to put mounts on that carbon fork to make it at least look more custom that I'm getting something more than a £60 decalled and lackered chinese one, the 58 size one needs another inch of stack height and you need to tell me that it can take a triple. I am your market, we've got/ had 4 Fargo's in the family plus several other Surly and Salsa fat and road bikes. To buy your frame it needs to be better or cheaper than a Fargo, and at the minute I see it as neither.

The Shand Driver is their Fargo copy, steel frame/ carbon fork and they've price matched it to £980 for the frameset.

It's the Drove, (not Driver), it isn't a copy and we didn't price match it. Other than that. you're spot on.

The Shand Drove isn't right.

Yes it is.

You need to get rid of that road PF bottom bracket, and put a standard one in

No we don't. It's a 73mm shell (i.e. not road) and we need it to run an eccentric BB for the Rohloff hub.

you need to put mounts on that carbon fork to make it at least look more custom that I'm getting something more than a £60 decalked and lackered chinese one

I'd like to put mounts on it but it will cost me more than I can afford for the tooling and once I've done that, I won't recover the cost. So we do a steel fork with dynamo routing and luggage mounts instead.

the 58 size one needs another inch of stack height

Not for me and all the other people buying them it doesn't.

and you need to tell me that it can take a triple.

No I don't.

I am your market

Really? I didn't see that coming....

we've got/ had 4 Fargo's in the family plus several other Surly and Salsa fat and road bikes. To buy your frame it needs to be better or cheaper than a Fargo, and at the minute it's neither.

Ok. Buy a Fargo then. I hear they're great.

BTW, if the tone of your post reflects the type of customer you're likely to be then I think I might have dodged a bullet.

[quote=milfordvet ]I am your marketNot if you think a handmade steel frame from Shand is only worth £450 you aren't 🙂

[quote=shandcycles ]Buy a Fargo then. I hear they're great. Ah - but they've sold out.

I mean Fargos, not Salsa.

Or then again...

In fact I just did Mr Shand.

Salso got my business. I just bought a Fargo frameset today from Pedals Edinburgh. For £699 I've got my frameset. Compared to your £1150 Drove frameset, my bottom bracket won't creak after 4 weeks and gives me a full selection of aftermarket cranksets and teeth numbers, my carbon fork will have auxilliary mounts when my Revelate bags on there, my back will thank me for that extra inch and my hoses and cables won't be routed under the bottom bracket.

In fact I just did Mr Shand.

Woohoo! We're all winners!

Did you also pop into M&S on the way home and shout in front of all the customers : "This jumper's wrong! You need it to be bluer! You need to tell me it's got pockets! I don't like the hem! I'm your market for gods sake! You're doing it all wrong!" ?

BTW, if the tone of your post reflects the type of customer you're likely to be then I think I might have dodged a bullet.

I, on the other hand, would be interested when my M El Mar comes due for replacement but I'd need a smaller size than you do...

I *heart* mr shand 🙂

I, on the other hand, would be interested when my M El Mar comes due for replacement but I'd need a smaller size than you do...

If only we built stuff here so we could accommodate things like custom sizing, cable routing, BB shells (heh) etc...

Oh, hang on....

You know where we are 😉

He's looking for new employees btw!

you can make anything you want right here in good old britain

trouble is like many people that frequent this site the thought of turning up to work for the square root of **** all loses its interest after a while

@milfordvet - Just out of curiosity, what sort of business are you in?

I'm not a frame builder (so have no idea about the costs involved if you want to make a professional job of it, like Shand do) but I do work in the bike industry, and I'm always interested to hear the backgrounds of those who try to dissect the business models of others in the bike trade.

I know this is a UK based site and I imagine most comments are from U.K. residents, but the bike shop I used in Houston for a couple of years, West End Cycles, had plenty of fargos, veyas, cross checks, and all the other models salsa and surly do. They are not a rare commodity in the US of A. It was one of the coolest bike shops I've been in. There was a museum of bikes hanging from the ceiling.

@milfordvet - Just out of curiosity,are you friends with Bartyp?

So back on track.

Are we blaming brexit for the salsa increase or are we saying that salsa has become a cool niche brand with problems importing so they have decided to restrict supply, increase rrp and make the brand all the more desirable because they are harder to get.

Surly on the other hand seem to be abundant and reduced towards the end of the season.

I think this is as much to do with marketing as it is to do with brexit.

Flame away 🙂

Going to largely keep out of this slagging fest, but just a short word about the Salsa pricing.

Regarding the Fargo/Deadwood etc, don't forget these are a frameSET and come with a nice fully custom carbon fork. The fork alone does have a mental UK RRP of just under £600, which is insane, but even if you took it as being £400 this means the 'frame' part of a Fargo frameset is £500, which is inline with any other steel frame.

Whoever said the Spearfish is overpriced now, shirley you are having a laugh? The carbon frame is £1999.
Same for the Horsetheif, Pony Rustler and Redpoint.
These are really nice high quality carbon frames. Most of my experience is with the Pony Rustler, we weighed MY 'demo' frame at 5.7lbs, building it up was spot on and it's one of the fastest bikes I have ever ridden. It it pretty much a Hightower, that frameset carries an RRP of £2750.

Ignoring the fact we have sale price Horsetheif/Pony Rustler frames for £1650...

A fairer frameset comparison for Salsa would be the Marrakesh with it's steel fork, but no one will mention that because it's £450.

Damascus - it's mostly brexit. No one in the trade wants higher RRPs, trust me.

We were going to buy a boatload of Traitor cycles into the UK on clearance as we think they would have gone down well at the right price. Went away on holiday to Torridon and all these ****s brexited us, over night all of our prices shot up, and suddenly rather than being a cheap option with nice colours they would have been the same price as hundreds of other options, and we just let it drop..

Haha the fact that get's caught in the swear filter makes it read much ruder than it really was :p

So be it.

A fairer frameset comparison for Salsa would be the Marrakesh with it's steel fork, but no one will mention that because it's £450.

Hiya.
From CTBM?
I hadn't noticed that.

If that's going to continue for a while, that's great news, and renders my point invalid.

Apologies, I had no idea they'd come down so much.

It's only the steel frames and forks I'm interested in, last time I checked they were still between £800 and a grand.

Will the Vaya/Marrakesh frames be about the same price in future, or is this just on older stock?

Are we blaming brexit for the salsa increase or are we saying that salsa has become a cool niche brand with problems importing so they have decided to restrict supply, increase rrp and make the brand all the more desirable because they are harder to get.

Surly on the other hand seem to be abundant and reduced towards the end of the season.

I think this is as much to do with marketing as it is to do with brexit.