To form a contract the terms have to either be explained to you or shown.
As I mentioned earlier- I was in the post office last week to post two Thomson stems. I didn't see ANY signs showing the Post Office/Royal Mail's terms and conditions. Any significant changes such as this should be made clear.
When asked what was in the parcel I said 'used bike bits'. I wasn't asked further to elaborate. IF the item(s) were then siezed or 'confiscated'. I don't think RM would do well in court.
HMRC has the legal powers to sieze and confiscate. I do not think a private company has the right to seize or confiscate another persons property without a specific note from Court. Bailiff's etc.
I'm no Solicitor, however this is how I understand and would fight any such claim.
Excellent work mojo.
Massive qudos to Mojo. What a jolly nice bunch. 😀
Yep, good one Mojo 😀
However, as GavinB says on the news item...
The suspension tuning companies need to get involved here too, as a quick glance around their sites shows that none of them note the dangers of RM classing a shock or fork as dangerous goods
I'm just about to send my shock off for a service and, for those who don't dwell on STW and now know the risk of sending with RM, I think the tuning companies should be warning customers
Nice one Mojo. Now on an unrelated note. Ahem. Did I tell you about my forks and shock being [s]stolen[/s] disposed of?
😛
Great news from Mojo- if it pops up on Ebay, lets have 'em
Wow, another reason to love Mojo 🙂
I don't know. Hi Mojo I sent you my Kashima forked 36's last week. Where are they? 😉 😀
Would certainly be worth chasing Royal Mail on this as I'm sure it has big implications for most of the bike servicing people.
Props to Mojo for sorting it though.
[i]Hi Mojo I sent you my Kashima forked 36's last week. Where are they?[/i]
last week? You've probably had them back and sold them 'cos the rebound's 'not right' by now 😉
*applauds Mojo*
Man, I like a story with a happy ending. 🙂 Props to Mojo, and really happy it's all taken a positive turn - but I'd like to add my voice to the "don't let the buggers off the hook" chorus! 🙂
Right, pressuization issue would be with rear shocks we will be using another carrier for the moment.
Forks shouldn’t be an issue.
We’d suggest other carriers to us, just make sure the item is covered by insurance to full value on it’s way to us.
Royal mail recorded would have only covered any item to £50 max.
Yeah fair play to Mojo indeed!!!
But aye, can't let off the pressure on RM...
Loco, I was told that it didn't matter what level of insurance I had, as it breached their terms there would be no pay out.
I also wouldn't send forks via RM either, not worth the risk....fluids and an air chamber/cylindrical objects...
I'm going on holiday in the next few days but will definitely follow up with RM and other avenues when I get back.
It wasn't lost on Mel the number of folk who would claim siezed items now, jokingly of course 😆
Get yourself a hashtag for those twitter posts
#shockingservice ?
I'd also include some of the customer service ones
#custserv
#custexp
huge kudos to Mojo and all the bad karma in the world to Post Office management.Paul please please don't let up on them, they are so out of order its almost untrue, ps enjoy your hols 😀
Hi Paul,
sorry that was in reference to the cover of any item sent by any carrier that we'd suggest that the insurance on it should cover it's replacment.
Glad Mojo sorted you out, having spoken to most of the other Service companies this is a one off, however until we get further confirmation from RM we won't be using them. Enjoy your holiday 😀
Fair play MOJO..
That's a pretty fantastic gesture!
Nice one from Mojo, will definitely be giving them some business as a result of the above.
Wonder how they'll post the new shock out?
In fact, wonder how I'll get my shock to them in future? ❓
I've not been Mojo's biggest fan in the past to say the least but they're doing a good thing here (with the proviso that the cost of a shock is pretty low compared to all the good publicity they're getting).
LoCo - Member
Right, pressuization issue would be with rear shocks we will be using another carrier for the moment.
Forks shouldn’t be an issue.
I thought the wording was that disposal could still apply, if the item is designed to carry pressurised gases, even if it is empty when sent?
Here you go, from page 2:
PaulGillespie - Member
Reply from RM dangerous goods teamGood Afternoon,
Thank you for your below e-mail, I have looked into the product further and it is a prohibited item and cannot be sent through Royal Mail. Under the Royal Mail Dangerous Goods Policy the product would be classified as the following:
Gases - (including flammable, non-flammable, toxic and compressed gases, new and used gas cylinders, butane, ethane, propane, refills for lighters, fire extinguishers and scuba tanks; also see Aerosols and Lighters)
UK destinations: No
International destinations: No[b]Because the product is charged by filling with compressed air and whether it is full or not it is deemed a prohibited item under the above guidelines.[/b]
[i]having spoken to most of the other Service companies this is a one off,[/i]
So either Paul was the unlucky victim of one individual's interpretation of RM's house rules, or he could be the first of a random series, because only a proportion of parcels get X-rayed. Either way, RM needs to come clean.
And I won't be sending forks by RM either.
We use another carrier for forks due to size and weight.
Frankly the bold line is daft, although it would seem to cover those too, so maybe avoid them too then, other carriers are cheaper anyway.
As I said this is the first time any of the industry lot has come across, although this doesn't make it any less crap for Paul.
So either Paul was the unlucky victim of one individual's interpretation of RM's house rules, or he could be the first of a random series, because only a proportion of parels get X-rayed. Either way, RM needs to come clean.
Yes, which is why we won't be using them until this is cleared up, as units going missing is a pain for all involved
How do RM actually have the right to bin your stuff anyway? It's not theirs. Did we establish this?
sorry that was in reference to the cover of any item sent by any carrier that we'd suggest that the insurance on it should cover it's replacment.
Yep - but beware of that too.....I posted on this yesterday but maybe it's been missed. When RM lost one of my items a year or so back, even though it was 'insured' they still wouldn't pay out for the loss.
I didn't specifically insure it because their counter person told me that standard post was covered up to (iirc) £50, so i went with a signed for delivery. But when they lost it, and i claimed for my £30 loss I was told that they wouldn't pay it because they had no 'proof' that the contents were worth £30. Even though i emailed them links to the FS thread on here, etc. They reimbursed the cost of the postage only, and to rub it in, did it in stamps so in effect no cost to them because the only way i could use them was to send something else!!
I hear you.Because the product is charged by filling with compressed air and whether it is full or not it is deemed a prohibited item under the above guidelines.
However the carrier should REFUSE to accept, carry or deliver the item. It should be returned. NOT kept, stored and then sold on by themselves. The latter part is a mockery. No?
As mentioned earlier, it seems totally daft and counter intuitive to think that a company is providing a service so poor that they recommend that you insure against them ****ing up.
If the company I used to work for (a PC repair/service place) asked for an extra £50 for every PC we tried to fix in case accidentally lose all their data the customer would quite rightly bugger off and go somewhere better. Its a mental situation.
I also wonder if the department in charge of "disposal" of said items has targets they are expected to meet in regards of revenue raised from pilfering the mail.
Final email in from Royal Mail....and my reply.
From: (Name withheld by PG)
Sent: 20 December 2013 11:30
To: Paul Gillespie
Subject: Dangerous Goods
Dear Mr Gillespie
Further to our telephone conversation yesterday and as promised, I did ask about the disposal process for the kind of item that you have sent. The bicycle part identified as prohibited will have been passed for auction as part of a mixed consignment. We do not list auction items separately so have no way of tracing the actual whereabouts or specific consignment the item will be part of.
The auctioneers that we work with is Wellers Auctioneers who I believe are based in Chertsey. I can’t refer you to them personally but if you perform an internet search for them, you be able to contact them independently.
If there is anything else I can help you with, please let me know.
Kind regards
(Name withheld by PG)
Chairman and Chief Executive Office
100 Victoria Embankment LONDON EC4Y 0HQ
My reply...
Thanks Dave,
Although that’s not quite the news I was looking for I’d like to thank you for following this up.
As you can imagine I’m not particularly pleased with the outcome and feel that Royal Mail’s policy needs revised in these situations. Further research online has shown that this is quite a big issue that affects a lot of Royal Mail customers. I particularly have an issue with Royal Mail profiting from the disposal of my expensive and safe item. It’s unsafe to post but it’s safe enough to transport to the auction house and sell on? I’m sure you can see the irony here.
These items are taken on aircraft all over the world for cycling holidays, the airlines are well aware of these items and their check-in staff even ask if all air has been let out of suspension and tyres when checking in a bike to the check-in desk. I understand that these are relatively new policies for Royal Mail and that some teething issues occur.
I feel compelled to bring this issue to the attention of the national press, trading standards (for profiting from my item), my MP, Watchdog, all social media avenues and any other method of getting the message to your customers out there. This will not be done out of spite but to hopefully prevent further occurrences of this situation.
Once again, thanks again for your assistance with this.
All the best
Paul Gillespie
Jesus! That is beyond shit.
Hopefully this will be stirring up some massive arse ache for some people within Royal Mail who need to sort this out.
I don't post a lot, but will be looking at all other avenues in future before using Royal Mail. Utter cak.
Good response, well done. Absolutely absurd.
Still tempted to bid on the auction though!
Awesome result from Mojo, mad props.
Wow. I would have come across a LOT more angry and cynical than that in the letter. 😯
I commend your level-headed articulateness, sir 😉
That response from RM is appalling - I'm struggling to see the legality of it, never mind the moral implications.
Fair play to Mojo - faith in human nature is restored a little.
**shakes head and sighs**
Utter madness.
I'd be contacting the MBUK, Dirt Mag, Fox, Mojo (very nice touch by them by the way), Loco, TF Tuned, Stif Cycles, CRC and Wiggle Facebook pages as a start with all of this info, hopefully that will start the ball rolling on spreading the word while you get in touch with the relevant people to take this further.
Like everybody else, I'm still struggling to see in what world there is any logic in refusing to transport something to where somebody has paid you to transport it, because it is dangerous, but being quite happy to transport it to somewhere else to sell on for your own profit.
Well actually there is some logic in that - the sort Watchdog et al ought to be quite interested in.
We're aware and have spoken to various other industry types regarding this, as I said we won't be using RM for suspension units from now on.
and frankly WTF with the reply from RM
Well I personally will never send another parcel via Royal Mail again.
Sounds a bit melodramatic and will make little difference to the Royal Mail I am sure .
I bought the sun newspaper practically every working day of my life up untill the Milly dowler phone hacking came out ,
And i have not bought a copy since.
Will make little difference to the sun but I feel better knowing they do not profit from me.
I just wish their was an alternative for letters.
We know why you 'kin love parcels now don't we??!!
That is just wrong and if there are any solicitors on STW i think you should have a pop at this. Its appalling behaviour from RM.
Well done Mojo for helping Paul out, and well written Paul as you would of been well withing your rights to give a load of crap back. Like you said, get the word out and lets hit them where it hurts, in the ££££.
OMFG. That's outrageous. You have a lot of mileage now to pursue this. They have told you that they destroyed it due to it's dangerous nature, and have now admitted that they are selling it for profit. Absolutely disgusting.
Been following this op since the start and I cant believe how RM have handled the situation and the fact that they have the bottle to send your shock to auction makes the situation that much worse! But big a well done to Mojo!
Would it be worth contacting the auctioneers to see how willing they'd be to find it and return it to you (not via RM obviously)?
If they're not willing, it might be worth advising them to hang onto it rather than auctioning it, in lieu of being investigated for handling stolen goods!
OP - why not reply to that email and ask them to explain why taking your property and passing it on for auction is not common theft? It'd be interesting to see their response...
Police time IMO. That is theft. Short of that, let's get an industry fund and support Paul in suing them.
.
Bye Royal Mail for me. We have alternative here, and pick up point is corner shop so closer.
.
If they refuse to carry it, surely they at the very least could say 'it is sat in x sorting office, you have a fortnight' before selling on for profit?
I expect that the legality aspect of them selling off dangerous goods has been looked into already (though it is worth checking).
The issue here is that it's not actually dangerous but simply breaches their terms. The question then is what legal position you're in there. Did you accept their terms? Are their terms legal?
Good reply PG.
I've been following this with interest and am as amazed as everyone else that they think they can just get away with doing this!
I've linked to the article on the front page from my FB page ([url=
to help spread the word. If I can help with anything else there - please let me know?
#royalfail
at least now you've got a shock coming from Mojo you basically have 'Nothing to lose' and can be as loud, shouty, and vindictive as you like to the media 🙂
Quite often, what's "legal" is down to interpretation until someone actually tests it in court. Just because someone in legal at Royal Mail thinks they can get away with this, doesn't make it so.
Police, Trading Standards and MP would be my next port of call. Also agree that you should contact someone at the auction house and explain that this item may well feature in future investigations so it might be in their best interests to hold it rather than auction it off.
Outrageous. I also can't help noticing the irony of the item's almost immediate dispatch down to be sold on to fund Royal Mail operations, compared with their normally shoddy parcels service.
Personally, I'd report it to the police as theft now, get a number, regardless of whether or not they take action (probably won't), and pass that information onto your friend in the CEOs office.
Those police details will also help media outlets pick up the story - 'man reports Royal Mail for theft after valuable goods are deemed 'dangerous' and sent for auction'. I'm sure cycling media/shock servicing companies would be available for comment.
Small Claims using the lack of T&Cs presented at the post office/unreasonable t&cs is the most likely route for a win though.
Have spoken with the auction house. They couldn't tell me when they get deliveries from RM, they couldn't tell me whether it would be sold as a job lot or individual item, it may or may not be auctioned online as well as in the auction site. Not much info really...
Why would they bite the hand that feeds...?
Id get onto the daily mail, they love a good RM bashing, although now its privatised will they?
I think you are handling it all rather well PG -and big up Mojo too
Heres a good point:
Subject to various statutory constraints unlikely to apply here, parties to a contract can agree whatever they like. The only argument against Royal Mail implementing its contractual terms is that the term in question is onerous or unusual and so should be specifically drawn to the attention of the customer, but that argument will likely fail if the customer has clicked the "I agree" button on a website or when filling in a form at the counter. This is a modern equivalent of L'Estrange v F Graucob Ltd [1934] 2 KB 394.
If the term is not pointed out to the customer, then arguably it does not apply, and Royal Mail will be liable for converting (ie appropriating) the goods.
Surely this is your property and by selling it the auction house is illegally selling it? Report them to the Police for handling stolen goods?
Why don't the Royal mail send people a letter telling them to collect their good from the depot by such and such a date or they will be disposed of? Yes they will get lots of people turning up for parcels but that is the only way I can see they should be doing it.
I can't quite believe that response from RM. So you send something thats perfectly safe and hundreds/thousands of similar items must go via RM each and every day.
Instead of either returning it to sender etc, they pass it to an auction house to sell?
Absolutely unbelievable. Your response to their last note is absolutely perfect though. As someone else has said, thanks to Mojo's generosity and RM's reluctance/inability to return the shock you're evens. So get it viral, social media it to death, get in touch with all the magazines, shock/tuning companies, big mail order companies etc. Someone with some clout (CRC/Wiggle) needs to voice their concerns to RM and the absolute shower of sh*t service they provide. It was bad before but now..... Holy crap. I'm shocked (no pun intended).
I have emailed the Guardian consumer section with a link to this thread and asked if they have heard of similar things outside the cycling niche.
Profiting from theft, sorry confiscation, Royal Mail seem like pirates, well privateers if they are keeping the Royal part of their name.
The gesture by MoJo is outstanding! Can not beat people like that! Incredible.
Also, RM are shocking. A couple months back I was posting alot of bike parts, forks, chainrings, other bits etc, and out of about 8 parcels, posted across a few days / a week. I was only asked what was in the package twice, and even then nothing was explained to me about why they asked. Just "security checks".
The terms and conditions that have been posted on here would also forbid the transport of bike tubes, tennis balls, footballs (inflated or not), pressure cookers(??) and is so vague in its definition that it surely must fall foul of unfair contract terms law?
Also, it appears they know the location of the item (either at the auction house or a RM warehouse) - now, I'd imagine that if you'd to go to the auctionhouse on the day of the auction you'd be more than entitled to take receipt of your goods.
RM can refuse to transport, they can even refuse you access to their premises, but I can't see how they can simply say "We're having this, your goods are now our goods" That makes NO sense. And must be illegal. I'd be at the auctionhouse accompanied by PC Plod. I'd also be tempted to inquire about the possibility of a court mandated order to return your goods given they clearly know where they are.
RM cannot simply take ownership of your goods.
I wonder if there's an angle here with the auction house.
Now that the original poster has had confirmation that his property has been passed to the auction house, the said auction house are effectively selling on property to which they have no legal title.
If the original poster makes them aware of this in writing, there's a good chance that due legal process can be followed to deal with the auctioneers knowingly selling on goods that they have no title to.
This made for interesting reading:
[i] Under the terms of trade with our major business customers, if the mail is not delivered then it will be securely disposed of unless a return address is included on the envelope. This has been the practice for many years. The mail which cannot be delivered or returned is stored for up to four months. If an item is not claimed, it is put out to auction. [b]All the
proceeds, minus a market rate commission for the auction house,
are used to partially pay the considerable cost involved in seeking
to reunite customers with their items.[/b] [/i]
[i]However, if an item is not claimed, and we
can find no address to which to return it,
and the [b]item has some value[/b], we put it out
to auction[/i]
It would seem that in the OP's case it would be worth asking what that money will then go towards as no effort was made to contact the OP in the first instance.
As RM are subject to FOI ([i]as I understand it[/i]) it might be worth asking:
➡ How many items they confiscate in the manner annually
➡ What the amount is they receive back from the auction house?
Good on Mojo.
If they refuse to transport your shock, how did they get it to the auction house?
It would also suggest that the decision regarding disposal is made in Belfast. Seems along way to ship a "dangerous" item only to then ship it on!
Wellers Auctioneers have a facebook page. I might ask if they have any Kashima Fox shocks...and link to this thread!
Might be worth mentioning to Wellers that this could very easily turn into the mother of all media shit storms and ask them which side of the fence they'd like to be on.
Just spoken to the Police. They seemed to think it was not a case of theft or handling stolen goods but it was regarded as a business transaction and that I should consult legal advice or Ofcom should I wish to pursue it further.
Have just added Ofcom to my list to contact.
Sadly I think the only way they will change those crap Ts&Cs is of they are challenged in a court of law. If it were me I'd go down the small claims route...and name both Royal Mail and the Auction house. I appreciate the OP might not want to bother with the cost and hassle
This [url= http://www.royalmailgroup.com/sites/default/files/Royal%20Mail%20Consumer%20Complaints%20&%20Compensation%20Report%202012-13v2.pdf ]document[/url] from the RM website for yr 2012/2013 (its a short read but big numbers)... shows the scale of complaints and compensation they are paying.
Just spoken to the Police. They seemed to think it was not a case of theft or handling stolen goods but it was regarded as a business transaction and that I should consult legal advice or Ofcom should I wish to pursue it further.Have just added Ofcom to my list to contact.
Good, I hope you get somewhere with them. I can't see how it's anything other than theft.
BTW, I'm planning on heading down to the auction to see what's there, If you email me any info about your shock, I'll keep an eye out for it and see if it's made it's way there.
Depending on who you spoke to at the police, they may not have a full understanding of the law. I've contacted them about highway obstruction where they tried to tell me it was the duty of the local authority. It wasn't, and going further up the chain got the correct response. The police enforce the law but given how many laws and the complexities of them, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to know them all, inside out.
Having said that, I'm not claiming to know more, they could be right, I'm just saying, don't take their first response as gospel.
I have contacted Wellers again via facebook and explained that an item they will auction will be subject to a legal investigation and media campaign. I have invited them to discuss it with me.
Notmyrealname
it's a Fox Float CTB Boost Valve Trail adjust with kashima. 190 eye to eye with 50mm stroke. same as this: http://www.ridefox.com/product.php?m=bike&t=shocks&p=99103&ref=filter
If you manage to get it and can return it to me, i'll sort you out for your time and expense etc. I'll then return the Mojo gifted shock back to Mojo.
Gone to your MP yet? If they decide to adopt this issue, they can be surprisingly influential. When they start asking, hard and fast rules suddenly get a bit more pliable. Might even get it posted back to you.
Notmyrealname
it's a Fox Float CTB Boost Valve Trail adjust with kashima. 190 eye to eye with 50mm stroke. same as this: http://www.ridefox.com/product.php?m=bike&t=shocks&p=99103&ref=filterIf you manage to get it and can return it to me, i'll sort you out for your time and expense etc. I'll then return the Mojo gifted shock back to Mojo.
No problem. I'm going to head there for the viewing on the Monday afternoon and possibly head to the auction if there's anything of interest there 😀
I find the most recent response from Royal Mail absolutely astonishing!
Having said that the item had been destroyed and disposed of, they are now saying that actually it has been sent to an auctioneer to sell!
That can't be anything other than theft and Wellers Auctions of Chertsey are surely handling stolen goods.
If a courier service was on a whim selling off packages they were supposed to deliver all hell would break loose, yet Royal Mail can seemingly do as they please.
I'll be avoiding using Royal Mail for both business and personal use for all but small low value items.
I have to applaud the OP's restraint and maturity plus a massive thumbs up to Mojo for their amazingly generous gesture.
Because the product is charged by filling with compressed air and whether it is full or not it is deemed a prohibited item under the above guidelines.
Bugger. Just sent some empty balloons with a Christmas pressie.
Seriously though, where do you draw the line?
I hope Wellers or RM are not pulling up the drawbridge by the plans to view and reclaim...
Maybe the OP and Notmyrealname should take their actions offline and report beack later...
Rick, makes no difference if I get it back or not. The fine folks at Mojo are ensuring i'm not without a shock.
If RM or Wellers take action based on this thread then that would be admitting some kind of liability.
As far as i'm concerned, keep it public and honest.
This is serious, Our local sorting office was nearly destroyed by an accident with a bicycle pump. Pressurised containers, pressurised or not can be terrible things.
Paul
where in the country are you??
I have to say I won't be using Royal Mail again. I'd sent my Vanilla RC to Loco for a service a few months ago and it sat in the sorting office for a week, I don't think they could be bothered to deliver it.
Useless muppets...
I'm still convinced that the way forward here is that their terms and conditions are unfair, in breach of fair trading laws
to form a contract requires agreement and understanding from both parties. Had you understood the contract terms i suspect you wouldn't have agreed to them...