[Closed] roadies - pedaling technique question

Breaking News!
Mountain Bikers don't even know how to pedal properly! 😯

Conclusively proved by Wilko's efforts up there, poor bugger's not even on the pedals!

You're absolutely right Old Git. Lance would never dream of dropping his heals...

Cornering...look you can see he is eyeing up the corner.

And just in case you post another pic, they're cornering.

You fool, he's on a perfectly straight road! There's an old git on the pavement shouting at him to point his toes!!

Shibboleth - Member
There goes Al demonstrating his complete lack of knowledge about all things cycling. What happens, Al, basically, is that the 'cyclist' turns the 'pedals' clockwise, which pulls a 'chain' round the top of the 'chainring' which in turn pulls the 'sprocket' resulting in forward propulsion. The chain is only under tension at the top.

You can see a kink in the upper section of chain.

There goes another noob dis-respecting his elders 🙄

Sorry, but that picture of Lance is definitely when he's cornering. You can even see the curve in the curb and the fact that he's turning his bars, and starting to lean into the corner.

I'm not sure where this idea that modern riders have lower seats comes from. When I went for a fitting, I was told that saddle height has hardly changed over the years. Pros need to be setup so they can do the masses of miles required without injury.

Lance:
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George:
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Fabien:
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Cadel:
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Canceller is toes down and Evans is cornering.

traildog - Member

I'm not sure where this idea that modern riders have lower seats comes from. When I went for a fitting, I was told that saddle height has hardly changed over the years. Pros need to be setup so they can do the masses of miles required without injury.

It's probably only millimeters, but look at photos of the likes of Indurain, a straighter leg at the bottom of the stroke seemed to be far more prevalent. Modern pros seem to ride with a more pronounced bend at the knee. (In my experience)

paulrockliffe - Member

Canceller is toes down

In relation to his leg??? Definitely less than a 90° angle there Paul...

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Grabsch?

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Eddy?

Sheldon on ankling:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html#ankling

he wasn't keen.

Ankling tends to aggravate an old tendon injury in my left ankle so I've had to make a concious effort to try and keep my feet fairly level when pedalling. With clipless pedals I don't actually see the point in ankling.

I think I ride toes down naturally and only drop my heels to stretch out my calves every now and again.

I don't know what it means though.

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Jan?

Obree...
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Shibboleth what internets are you using, I couldn't find another pic of Evans with heels down. And none of those other pics are heels down?
Same as all the other riders, I think the evidence points to heels down. Google a tour peloton image.

Back in the 70's they did bang on about optimal saddle height. From my experience back then they did try and get as high as possible - amateurs that is. But then again they used to mash monster ratios. TBH I've haven't considered this for years, but I suppose this new fangled cadence thing might have riders looking at saddle heights in a new way.
But to be brutally honest I'm just talking bolios.

Okay crikey has convinced me toes down it is 🙂

Shibboleth are you playing with my head? Obree has his toes down.

In relation to the angle of his leg, his heel is down. The angle is less than 90°. Evens is a prolific heel dragger, hang on...

Nah, I'm only idling time away as I try to wake up. 🙂

I've always had a very flat footed style which I put down to riding a lot as a kid on slippy flat pedals, and I've just carried on riding that way. I have friends who ride very toes down and I think it's simply a personal preference.

What is interesting is the way I seem to be able to ride things with my seat up on the mountain bike that have others dropping the saddle; whether this is due to me being a bit lower to start with is something we've commented on before.

Higher cadences seem to be easier when toes are down though.

The ankling thing has been questioned in the past; there is some piece of evidence/research that suggests that the power in pedalling is almost totally produced on the down stroke, and that the pros just press on harder that us lot of weaklings, but I can't remember where it is..

OK, so there's a slight bend here... Why do photographers always stand on bends?!?

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Here is is straightening up after a bend...
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From my experience back then they did try and get as high as possible - amateurs that is. But then again they used to mash monster ratios.

TSY, I'd have been able to tell you if you rode toes down, but I was overwhelmed by the sight of you in your pink see through lyrca and looking at your feet was the last thing on my mind [s]my eyes were fixed on my front wheel all the time instead.[/s] 😀

Interesting thoughts on here, I was curious as I've spent a lot of time working on my cadence this summer and watching how others ride. Those I've seen ankling have tended to be pushing a much harder gear than me on a seated climb.

Druidh, seeing as I know your riding style, when you point your toes downwards, are you still pushing a bigger gear for short/sharp climbs (the ones I'd spin up and you'd 'stomp' up?) and how much of an angle do you take it to? Can't say i've ever noticed you ankling - I must pay more attention to your feet [s]instead of wheel sitting[/s] 😆

Gone quiet Shibboleth?

Here's a guy ankling:

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Where you getting those shots from?
Obree, I read heels down as past the axle like the Evans pics.
In relation to the leg it'll adjust as you move back and forth on the saddle.

I'll post a picture of me pointing my toes down in the lycra if you like?

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I wouldn't say I'm ever conscious of deliberately "ankling", in fact I'd never heard it referred to as such, but I've started to think about it a bit more since I started taking a mountain biker out on road bikes.

I rode roadbikes long before mountain biking, so have a natural, fluent pedaling style, whereas this other rider had never ridden clipped in, and whilst a fairly experienced and skillful mountain biker, his pedaling looked very awkward on the roadbike.

Personally, I think if you're making good circular rotations rather than mashing, a slight heel-down technique is a perfectly natural result in the lower part of the stroke (assuming good ankle flexibility).

The only time I consciously think about my pedal technique is when I'm grinding on the flat when I'll try to put more power down throughout the pedal stroke. When climbing, my ankle does whatever it wants to do, however my toes point down as I make a more exaggerated pull up on the back of the stroke.

I'm a fairly high-cadence pedaler too, no idea what difference this makes if any.

I might see what toe-pointing does next time I ride, although I suspect it might be a short cut to tendonitis!

Photos from time trials aren't really representative though as you have a different set-up and tend to sit right on the nose of the saddle in order to produce more power.

I tend to pedal toes down except if I'm putting in a big effort while staying seated, in which case it is a more of a flat footed effort.

whatnobeer - Member

Photos from time trials aren't really representative though as you have a different set-up and tend to sit right on the nose of the saddle in order to produce more power.

Of course it's representative. You just have to consider the heel position in relation to the leg, rather than the horizontal.

You ever used a Wattbike? As well as measuring power, cadence, HR, all the usual stuff, it can measure how that force is applied and show it as a curve on a graph.

Have a look at [url= http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/pedalling_technique_test/what_the_polar_view_shapes_mean ]this[/url] and play the video on that page too.
If you can find a video of Jamie Staff on it, then play that cos the man is awesome! He was at a exhibition show with one of these things, a come and try it where the general public can have a go on it for 30 seconds. Jamie (riding in jeans and trainers) comfortably smashed even the best club cyclists in all their lycra and cycling shoes. 😉

The ankling diagram I posted earlier is actually a) quite old and b) a bit of an exaggeration to show the effect and it will vary a lot with gear choice, cadence, power output and whether you're climbing or riding on the flat (or cornering).

Most modern pro riders don't have a huge change in the joint angle at the ankle through the entire pedal stroke. With greater technological ability to analyze pedaling comes great awareness of good and bad technique. Most recreational riders base their style on something they read in cycling weekly 10 years ago. Or something their mate told them once.

Photos of riders in corners, on steep hills, during time trials etc don't tell the full story.

It's representative of how people ride in TT, but not in normal road race or club runs. Thats all.

[i]Most modern pro riders don't have a huge change in the joint angle at the ankle through the entire pedal stroke.[/i]

That seems to suggest to me that 'ankling' or the scraping idea is not particularly important?

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Probably not relevant to use a movie actor to illustrate an argument about pedalling technique..!

The real Mr Obree:
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Nice selection of different foot angles to argue over there.

TBH I have never given a chuff about it, that's just how I ride. I'll shuffle about if needs be as long as the numbers on the speedo keep going up.

We've got a copuple of Wattbikes coming our way, apparently they'll find out where youre going right or wrong.

Ha ha. Silence is golden!

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I've noticed when pushing a big gear, that I get a feeling of putting my heels through it, long drags mainly, rest of the time, turning smooth circles seems best.

I don't ride toes down 😳
My foot action is neutral, with the slightest touch of heels down at the top of the pedal stroke.

@Shibboleth 😀

By bringing your ankle up and forward (dropping your toes) you will be able to compensate for having your foot too far back on the pedal (The conventional wisdom of ball of foot over pedal spindle, does not suit everyone).
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/

Being able to drop your heels relys on good flexibility.

But pedaling for exteneded periods of time relys a great deal on the muscles in the legs above the knees, rather than the smaller muscles below the knees (ankling)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2ZrbnR-0dI&feature=related

I did a 70 miler the other week, with my saddle raised and trying to use my ankles more - it nearly destroyed my right knee and I couldn't walk the next day.
Back to mashing big gears for me!

Brilliant explanation on pedaling technique here
http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC%20ideas/LFC%20Notes.htm

Some of you have got the wrong idea of ankling, its all about keeping your ankles low throughout the stroke.
and it is not meant to be a solitary technique used throughout the ride, but as a style used occasionally to ease pressure on muscles for periods of time.

Brilliant explanation on pedaling technique here
http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC%20ideas/LFC%20Notes.htm

Some of you have got the wrong idea of ankling, its all about keeping your ankles low throughout the stroke.
and it is not meant to be a solitary technique used throughout the ride, but as a style used occasionally to ease pressure on muscles for periods of time.

The problem with that website is that, despite the apparently scientific approach taken, its still all his opinion without anything much to back it up.

[i]Without wishing to denigrate Lemond and Delgado, I’ve yet to see anyone with a ‘toes up’ style of pedalling look as smooth or powerful, especially under pressure, as a good ‘toes down’ pedaller.[/i]

Until prize money is paid out for pedalling style, there is no reason to attempt to [i]look smooth or powerful[/i].... It's about getting there first, not getting there stylishly.

In my opinion there is a overanalysis of pedalling style; just press on to go faster...