Forum menu
I can notice the difference between a 12 year old carbon race bike (2008 Scott CR1) and my new one (2021 Orbea Orca), quite a big jump in performance. The new frame is much stiffer, accelerates faster and more aero. The difference was much bigger than I expected.
I took out my tcr for first time in 6 months the other day and it was remarkably faster than the defy I'm usually on. And compared to my Croix de fer with decent roadie tyres the difference is even more remarkable
I think the majority of difference comes down to position on bike, but aero wheels count for a bit as well
What points on the training ride are you slower/getting dropped/struggling.
Its not a training ride its a social ride but what happens is I am riding hard the whole time to keep up whereas they are going easy not to drop me. If they want a training ride they go without me.
Its not serious at all but just led me to idly wonder how much was the bike and how much is me being old slow and unfit. Looks like its mainly me
I do find it interesting tho that from the answers on here the hard data from the couple of folk who have any comparable data would suggest its not a lot of difference but it feels a lot of difference that the bike makes
from a sciency point of view:
Aero matters, but not at low speeds, one bike might well be 15% moar aero than another, but the biggest aero improvement is to be had from body position.
Is the biggest point. I always laugh at <£10k bike> is 15% more aerodynamic than <last years £10k bike> being touted as a 15% performance gain. Erm, not unless the bloke riding it has also got 15% more aero.
You have modern tyres, at least 1 modern hub (which in the middle, flat land gear, is actually a fraction more efficient than with a deraillier), you should be close to the performance of a modern bike, weight excluded, on the usage you describe.
Only thing really working to your disadvantage is not being in the optimum gear. Now every person is differecnt, and as you have experience single speeding and on 3spd hubs its probably less of thing for you than for someone who has trained themselves to death on a spin bike.
Being able to tune to optimal cadence is why roadies wax lyrical about straight block cassettes and cadence sensors - this is all a lot more important when in a group where the speed is set by someone else, on your own you will naturally fall to your body's natural rhythm, and resulting speed.
The feeling is deceptive. Put some lighter tyres on a road bike (say switch from a 600g Marathon Plus to a sub 300g road tyre, which I have done) and the bike feels so much better and feels as though you would be going so much faster. However, the stop watch doesn't lie and it actually makes very little difference over an hour's ride.
They way i look at it is if a rider on a stiffer frame saves 10 watts to travel the same speed as his mate on a flexy 531 frame, then at the end of a 4 hour ride he is going to be significantly fresher than the guy putting out an extra 10-15 watts for the entire ride.
I dont know how much power output gets soaked up in a flexy frame, but add it all up, flex, weight while climbing, rolling resistance, drivetrain loses, aero and the new bike could easily save you what? 20 watts? 30 watts? thats significant over four hours.
Certainly does all add up. To how much, I'm not sure. I think the impact of stiffness alone is the Q, I don't think it does save 10W but I don't know.. vs a decent 80s steel road frameset that Lemond or Hinault rode I think the advantages are small if any and may go the other way for some riders.
Flex gets bundled in with other things like aero and weight which are more easily quantified as W gains simply as light aero frames also tend to be stiff?
Also I'd say a frame with some spring can be less fatiguing (to me and how I ride, not as a cover-all fact) so that may help a rider stay fresh, rather than assuming flex is only wasted W.
Being able to tune to optimal cadence is why roadies wax lyrical about straight block cassettes and cadence sensors – this is all a lot more important when in a group where the speed is set by someone else, on your own you will naturally fall to your body’s natural rhythm, and resulting speed.
Very valid point. I was happy on 1x11 on a road/gravel bike until I did a couple of rides in a bunch where the gaps were really apparent.
Perhaps that's where stiffness also helps, all those adjustments and small accelerations to hold a position favor quicker-reacting bikes, it's quite different to how I'd ride when at my own pace.
For identical positions, kit and tyres, I am about 1-2km/hr faster on my aero Giant propel than my fixed wheel steel road bike with normal rims. Add fast kit (skinsuit, aero helmet, overshoes) and it's another km/hr. I've tested speed for power on a closed circuit. The aero bike is faster. Just not much.
Age is a bugger. If you want to go faster, work on the engine and wear a skinsuit. Sorry.
I am not wearing a skinsuit. Looking like a burst sausage is not fair on the ladies
Sticking to the bike only 1-2 km/hr matches my experience switching between winter and summer bikes on my commute. It doesn't sound like much but I certainly notice when I try to match speeds rather than effort.
I am not wearing a skinsuit. Looking like a burst sausage is not fair on the ladies
It is not that fair on the men either
I always laugh at <£10k bike> is 15% more aerodynamic than <last years £10k bike> being touted as a 15% performance gain
I've never seen an ad that promises you'll go 15% quicker. They do say the bike is 15% more aero, and this can be correct (it has to be by law) but they are banking on the reader making the faulty assumption i.e. that they'll go 15% faster.
Anyway - re the OP - fatigue is subjective. You may well find that the comfort improvements and even smaller performance improvements of a new bike will add up to a significant comfort improvement which will actually make you feel better and hence pedal harder for longer, even if your legs aren't any better.
So is the consensus that the aero difference is significant thus giving me the excuse to wheelsuck all the way
Wheel sucking is a massive speed boost. If they are faster than you then your place is always going to be at the back, it's a great handicap system in fact and it doesn't exist on MTB. Which is why MTB group rides always include so much stopping 🙂
I’ve never seen an ad that promises you’ll go 15% quicker. They do say the bike is 15% more aero, and this can be correct (it has to be by law) but they are banking on the reader making the faulty assumption i.e. that they’ll go 15% faster.
Bold bit is the key bit. They do seem to lead the reader that way.
Worse than the official bike release is the "first ride/first look/"press release and geo table turned into an article" where the 15% faster is further implied...
At what point is it the reader's responsibility to know a bit about the subject?
Back to the OP question:
How much would I gain by getting a more modern bike?
The answer is... A bit perhaps?
You'll be losing out on gearing (both range and increments) teh aeroez, teh stiffness and teh lightness. Comfort wise I reckon you can probably split the difference between a vibration absorbing skinny steel frame and wider tubeless tyres on an over-stiff aero ego-chariot...
It's not so much that one bike is "faster" than another, it's that one bike will be incrementally more efficient in a few areas (gears, aerodynamics, weight, etc) hopefully allowing you to save a bit of energy here and there and overall be less fatigued for a bit longer and/go faster for the same effort...
You can only really gauge it over a solo loop if you're riding with someone else then that will act as a bit of interference. So if you really wanted to know you'd have to make best efforts to replicate nutrition, routine, weather, HR(?) and of course the route ridden for say two solo rides spaced a week apart swapping only the bike between them...
My guess would be there's not actually too much in it, I know from doing my lockdown loop several times on my winter bike (1x9/steel F&F/dynamo hub/mudguards) and summer bike (2x10/carbon) over the last year that I'm probably not much more than 1mph faster on the posher bike, but I do tend to be a bit fresher by the end and hence more likely to extend a ride...
Comfort wise I reckon you can probably split the difference between a vibration absorbing skinny steel frame and wider tubeless tyres on an over-stiff aero ego-chariot
But there's also the option of 'endurance' road which is what most people need.
I think the question is
How easier is it to average xxmph on a new, lightweight modern bike, than a 30 year old clunker?
A fair bit id say, you can select the optimum gear, easily, at any time.
Effort will be rewarded by forwards momentum easier
Eg get away from the traffic light's
I can stand up on the pedals and every 5 cranks use a finger to select the next cog. Click. Clunk, power, click, clunk poweron etc, all in sub 1 sec gaps. No need to dig deep to get on top of the gears, less effort more speed
My question was a 1960s road race frame with a modern front wheel, a 1960s Sturmey archer rear hub and modern tyres.
All that time you are changing gear I'm just powering on with my mighty tree trunk thighs 🙂
My question was how much faster would I be on a modern road bike, the answers seems to be a few % in reality but the modern bike would feel a lot faster
On the flat I don't even bother with first gear and I am at cruising speed in 2nd withing half a dozen turns of the cranks
Ok an unscientifically guestimated 5%...
I currently have an aluminium Kinesis Aethin, with plastic wheels.
I'm not going back to steel road bikes.
I can't be bothered to argue the physics, it's just faster.
5% would be a significant difference IMO
Ta for the discussion chaps - its been interesting
Yes, a few % feels a lot because I think we tend to be quite sensitive to small changes as cyclists. There's a world of difference between a ride with an average speed of 18mph and 22mph.
Has noone mentioned hub inefficiency yet? That's got to be significant surely?
5% would be a significant difference IMO
It is around the 1mph at 20mph difference a lot of us have estimated. Probably on the high side though if comparing different road style bikes with same tyres on though.
I think the riding with other highlights the differences though. I can cruise at 17mph but taking that up to 18mph is hard as that is not my cruising speed based on fitness. If a group was riding at 17 I would be fine, if they were at 18 I would slowly drop back to anything that would give me 18mph for same effort is going to be much more noticeable that if riding on my own.
Has noone mentioned hub inefficiency yet? That’s got to be significant surely?
not if its in gear 2
but its still only the right gear for a very small portion of the ride - the ineffieancies from being in the wrong gear are likely to be more significant than the hub gear -the SA hub gear being the least draggy of all the hub gears (also the least sealed mind)
i would guess that the main difference would be stiffness.
i dont know whether the energy involved in winding up the spring of steel frame, is then discharged as forward motion, or just lost in wibble wobble. I suspect a modern bike will certainly feel quicker, accelerate harder.
Surely weight only really matters on the hills, but if youre having to put in a couple of extra watts/% on every hill to keep up, thats going to add up to your overall tiredness.
Looks like its mainly me
probably, but I reckon if you managed to finagle a cassette with a decent spread on it, the difference wouldn't be as much as all that.
Has noone mentioned hub inefficiency yet? That’s got to be significant surely?
Not with an SA. In second it will be more efficient than a derailleur in the other two gears similar. Straight chain going thru less bends
I certainly do not notice any flex with the frame - I think it a very stiff frame for steel and even when loaded up with big panniers as I have in the past I never noticed any but I am notoriously insensitive to these things
Its a few decades since I rode a 3 speed Raleigh Chopper , but i am pretty sure I ran out of gears around 15mph
I know your wheels are bigger but if your spinning out at say 21mph ( 7mph each cog ) then a modern bike with a mid compact will certainly help with average speed
I reckon a switch could increase your average ride speed by as much as 2mph over a long hilly ride , if your down around 14mph av now then 16mph on a 22speed carbon bling machine is not an unreasonable estimate
If your up at 18mph av , then your gain will be less but still noticable
its a 200% range. speeds depend on overall gearing
Given that with the SS gearing at slightly lower than I have the overall gearing for the 3sp I have pedalled it it at 30+ mph ( spinning like a loon) and with the 3 spd SA I can pedal comfortably at 25 MPH thats not an issue. Gaps may be but overall top end not.
I would need a complete new bike to fit modern 2x11 gearing. Its a 60 yr old frame with no gear hanger and the old fashioned hub spacing so thats not going to happen. Even to refit the 2x5 which i still have would not be easy as I no longer have the rear wheel.
i am not really looking to find the extra speed from the bike. It was a lighthearted pondering
I can cruise at 17mph but taking that up to 18mph is hard as that is not my cruising speed based on fitness. If a group was riding at 17 I would be fine, if they were at 18 I would slowly drop back
Exactly (though what you'd do is sit on a wheel and try not to get dropped on hills). 1mph sounds marginal but is massive in practical terms when riding with others, difference between the A and the B ride, fun ride and suffering. A new carbon vs old three gear might well be that much faster. There's a GBN episode where they compare times - guy on a TT bike vs two guys on road bikes working together. TT bike wins decisively to my surprise. Different I know, but shows the actual bike does count for a lot.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/06/cyclingtips-podcast-does-frame-stiffness-matter/
dont have time to listen, whats the conclusion?
i am not really looking to find the extra speed from the bike. It was a lighthearted pondering
Oh aye, Like I said, I don't think the bike makes all that much difference. With more gears you may find it easier to find a gear suitable for the bit of road you find yourself on at any particular moment, and thus find it easier to go a bit faster. And with just three, then for a good percentage of the time, you might be in "the wrong gear"...But lets be honest here, it's mostly down to the engine. we're none of us getting any younger, and v few of us are getting fitter 🙂
There’s a GBN episode where they compare times – guy on a TT bike vs two guys on road bikes working together. TT bike wins decisively to my surprise
Keep up 🙂 after that they did 3 and lost , then 4 and lost and only won when they did 5 (and that 5 included a current pro who was apparently doing 750watt turns at the front)
this one is pretty good too.
A relatively small decrease in power can make a huge difference to how long you can sustain a given speed.
Who will watch this one and tell us what they found?
5% difference one comment says, so someone's earlier guess was spot on. Bit more than I expected o be honest.
Reasoning from that you'd probably expect the slightly lower efficiency of a hub gear and the wider gaps between gears to have an additional impact, maybe a few more percentage points. No wonder the OP is feeling outpaced.
Would love to see a test with modern groupset and matched wheels on both bikes.
I test my setup with a pedal power meter and time for 200W laps. I'm very good at riding very consistently on power, hence small changes in aeroness will show them selves in seconds (2:30 is the null and a standard deviation of 2-3 seconds). A change of 6 seconds would be significant. And I ride six laps (5 rolling are used for timing). The skinsuit was by far the fastest addition! Frame a tiny amount. Cables 😀
The skinsuit was by far the fastest addition!
We've already agreed he will be sparing us the skinsuit
ew decades since I rode a 3 speed Raleigh Chopper ,
was going to say something about a chopper and a skinsuit, but changed my mind.
Maybe I should go for the skinsuit if that gives the greatest benefit.
Maybe I should go for the skinsuit if that gives the greatest benefit.
Only with a shaved head for maximum gain...
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
*flicks luscious locks*
🙂
She took me up the bathgate Alps today. made my eyes water it did
First time I have done significant climbing since I put the 3spd on the bike - its geared too high.