[Closed] Riser bars? They're everywhere! And now, they're MOAR AERO!

That is an abomination

Looks like Batman's gimp

The integration is very cool, the cables obviously go through the stem.
Guessing the dip in the bars is to get the front end as low as possible.

Is the rear brake in that strange bulge at the back of the seat tube under the seatstay?

If it was a tad wider, I'd be guessing the dip in the bars is to allow that bloody daft aero "wrist dangle" that the pros do when they think the cameras are on them

Looks all kinda horrid IMO.

I know it's all about AERO, but hey Cav, grow a backbone will you 😉

Guessing the dip in the bars is to get the front end as low as possible.

Yep, lower front end, even with the riser, is still MOAR AERO! So, you can build a smaller frame, which has less overall drag, while retaining the same ride position.

Still no-one integrating the garmin mount into a pocket in the stem then, or is that against the rules?

Still no-one integrating the garmin mount into a pocket in the stem then, or is that against the rules?

3T have done that.
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

IIRC someone also did an integrated mount for the (thankfully!) short lived Mavic computer range.

Those bars look spot on for old stif sciatica sufferers like myself.

I think it looks cool tbh. Mean.

[img] [/img]

It might be more aero but i'm not convinced those bars are going to be stiff enough for sprinters. Apparently Sagan had the new bike and stem today but with regular bars, i dont know if the bars being flexy is the reason though!

i'm not convinced those bars are going to be stiff enough for sprinters.

Cav is well known for liking his front end stiffer than a pronstar on a viagra overdose, regardless of sponspor requirements. So, if it's on his bike, it's stiff enough.

What looks less pro: These bars, flipping the stem the "wrong way" or using some spacers?

I thought they could only ride equipment that's for sale, rather than "soon to be available" ?

(assuming TdS is a UCI event)

Stuff that appears in a WorldTour race has to be made available for sale within 9 months of it's first appearance.. SRAM are going to have to pull their finger out with their wireless electronic groupset as they've only got 2-3 months left I think..

fugly

Where's the bell?

Stuff that appears in a WorldTour race has to be made available for sale within 9 months of it's first appearance.. SRAM are going to have to pull their finger out with their wireless electronic groupset as they've only got 2-3 months left I think..

just has to be available for sale

Me: Hello is that SRAM, id like to purchase a Wireless SRAM Red setup
SRAM: Yes of course sir, that would be £1.5m please

same with all the daft British Cycling track stuff, all available for purchase, just at ludicrous prices no one would pay, see wiggins 3d printed to bars as a recent example

Apparently Sagan had the new bike and stem today but with regular bars, i dont know if the bars being flexy is the reason though!

looks like he is?

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The integration is very cool, the cables obviously go through the stem.

real world where fat bluffers are buying and using these new golf clubs, and don't have a team mechanic to maintain it for them I just see problems with "integration"...

As for the aero drop riser I just don't see the advantages to the rise, and why is it taped so far inboard?

real world where fat bluffers are buying and using these new golf clubs, and don't have a team mechanic to maintain it for them I just see problems with "integration"...

yawn

whats wrong with integration?

killer bike.
wire-free too.

As for the aero drop riser I just don't see the advantages to the rise,

Did you bother to read the thread?

Yep, lower front end, even with the riser, is still MOAR AERO! So, you can build a smaller frame, which has less overall drag, while retaining the same ride position.

Tape? Well, different riders tape their bars in different ways. I suspect Mr Cavendish is more than capable of choosing his own taping preference. He might know a thing or two about how he likes it. Apparently, he's quite a handy rider....

I think the new Madone 9 does a better job of integration, it's the rise on those that looks gopping!

Frame looks good though.

oh dear god noooooooooooooo !

Did you bother to read the thread?

No I read the armchair aerodynamisits guesses above, I just don't buy it.

I think it's simply that "riser drop bars" will be getting pitched at the punters by next summer and some pictures of everyone's favourite Manx cyclist using said product will help override any descenting suggestions that they do sweet FA...

Does Cavendish spend much time holding on an inch and a half either side of the stem? I can't see why else you'd add so much tape...

I actually quite like it, it's grown on me a bit. Clever integration, nice to see some genuinely new designs and it's definitely the way to go. No external cables. All it needs is hydraulic brakes (rim or disc) and it would be cable free altogether.

Internal electric shift wires and hydraulic brake hoses, zero maintenance, clean looks and aero.
Only downside of course is the completely proprietary package: bars, stem, forks that you can't get as spares!
Be nice if the Garmin mount was cleaner too.

I just don't buy it.

So, you're putting out an armchair-aero guess, then?

Smaller frontal area has less drag. That's a simple fact.

Oddly enough, "riser drops" are already on the market. Saw a chap with some while out for a lunchtime spin today on the lanes around North Hants! He didn't look like a Manxman, though.

Only downside of course is the completely proprietary package: bars, stem, forks that you can't get as spares!

Indeed. However, as far as I know, Trek, Canyon and Spesh are all at it. I wonder if there might be a "standard" for integrated aero kit.

Interesting times. I still think that much of the aero here is utterly useless for most riders, but for racing, anything that can help is surely a good thing. And yes, that means having a smaller frontal area and reduced drag. So, a smaller frame and risers! 😉

1,2 for the aero crew

But different bars on Sagans

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looks like he is?

He has the stem but not the bars

[img] [/img]

All of a sudden, those calipers on the Canyon look woefully out of date! After seeing what Trek have done with the new Madone (if that's what it is going to be called) and then looking at some of the trickery that Magura have coming out these days, and the stuff on that Spesh.

Road bikes are, for a large part, stuck in the early 20th century still.

Road bikes are, for a large part, stuck in the early 20th century still.

And that kind of what I like about them.

Interesting taping divergence in the Cav - Sag photo.

Is there a caption competition for the photo by the way and can I suggest Cav (in what always sounds like a Scouse drawl to me) is saying "yeah I know, but sometimes you just gotta ride what they give you, I mean Spesh have a couple of million of these bars to sell"

Tape? Well, different riders tape their bars in different ways. I suspect Mr Cavendish is more than capable of choosing his own taping preference. He might know a thing or two about how he likes it. Apparently, he's quite a handy rider....

He is quite a handy rider but he is also quite a handy marketing tool. Tape on the tops of an aero bar isn't as aero as the same bar without hence the question I guess. Also, the position with the "riser aero bar" could be achieved with more spacers or a flipped stem. Aero but not so pro looking or marketable. I strongly suspect that Cav will be on something similar to Sagan during the Tour whilst the aero riser will give the "Sportive" riders something to get a reasonable looking fit on an aero race bike.

The tape and high tops section is for when Cav is climbing in the autobus in the big mountains. Low drops are for him to get as aero as possible when sprinting. I guess Sagan doesn't have the same requirements and hence normal bars are fine for him.

Except the drop between the tops and the drops is no more with those riser bars - the only difference is where the stem joins. I'm with the theory that it's something inflexible sportive riders can use to fit on a racy looking bike and it's only being used by the pros in order to sell it to them.

I see it but don't see the point when a stem with positive rise would achieve the same fit.
I'm more interested in whats going on with Sagans barnet, looks like Pat Sharp.

If 21st century road biking is about increasing prices for:

1. concealed cables...
2. attendant crap shifting and braking plus more hassle setting it up,
3. new proprietry caliper brake systems/standards with calipers in really stupid positions

all to achieve a few watts aero - that won't matter to most of us let alone the golf-types the OP loves to slag then:

[img] [/img]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/new-specialized-venge-vias-sets-high-bar-for-aero-road

As fast as a Shiv

£11,000. Wow. It's not even got any red bits, surely then it would be [i]faster [/i]than a Shiv?

While the bars aren't my cup of tea I love that bike. It's been a while since a road bike grabbed me like this one has. And you don't have to run those bar so if you're bendy enough you can do what Sagan's done.

A couple of interesting articles on the new bike and the possible aero savings they're claiming!

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/06/first-look-specialized-venge-vias/

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/06/can-the-specialized-venge-vias-really-save-5-minutes-over-40kms/

Really want to see more pictures of the laced shoes! Although at that price I think I should probably just get Empire's!

Thinking about this I wonder if Giant would still be brave enough to goad Spec into a Propel vs Venge wind tunnel test!

Wondering when the aero benefits of a 1" steerer will be realized.

Really want to see more pictures of the laced shoes!

Not sure they look as good as Empires. To me, at least.
[img] [/img]

The "Warp sleeve" for MOAR AERONESS
[img] [/img]

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/specialized-lace-up-sub6-and-s-works-6-shoes-announced-44570/

Now, obviously, laced shoes are clearly MOAR AERO as Wiggins rode the hour in his Empires. So, that's a science fact now.

What are giants figures on the Propel?

I love the tech but how many of us or the buyers can sustain the 40kph the savings are measured at?

I love the tech but how many of us or the buyers can sustain the 40kph the savings are measured at?

Does it matter, Al? Of course not! It's like the watch that's waterproof to the bottom of the Marianas Trench and sends out an emergency signal in all known languages, and Esperanto, at the touch of a button.

No one outside of the pro peloton really NEEDS any of this twaddle. Especially not for their [s]races[/s] sportives. They WANT it. 😀

The "they" in this case, being bike shop customers with money to spend. 🙂

Beyond that, however, as with the Pro-XC thread, it's interesting to see new tech being pushed, as that newness will gradually become what normal people ride. As was seen with the original RS1, for example.

I get that Flasher, just doing my reality check on the Venge/Omega etc buying fraternity on here.

I guess they can spec a triple or compact on their Venge, and buy a size smaller to accommodate the belly...maybe SBC will even release that them with some rise?

You're a miserable sod aren't you Al?!

you two really sound quite bitter.
it's a professional's road bike designed to be ridden by the best cyclists in the world.

I haven't done any road racing this year but I've been enjoying the local chain gang, we generally manage about 40km/h, last week me and one of the young guys decided to try and get off the front and hold off the group for a lap. I might have managed it if I'd had my skin suit on...

CaptainFlashHeart - Not sure they look as good as Empires. To me, at least.

Na, you're right, they're def not as pretty! I'd actually just ordered the Empire's before seeing your post so pretty happy now 😀 £150 on Evans if anyone was wanting a pair... Lolz at the Warp Sleeve!

I believe Empire's were actually originally designed as an aero TT shoe for Taylor Phinney.

Empires definitely look better than the Spesh ones!

What I took away from those articles is that this new bike and new wheels may save you 120s over 40km compared to a Tarmac. But some aero gear (skinsuit/ shoes/ helmet) and tyres may save you 180s over 40km. So, 60% of the aero moar-ness can be acheived for less than 10% of the cost of the final 40% aero savings. Which would you choose? The £11000 bike with the nonadjustable stem of course 😆

it's a professional's road bike designed to be ridden by the best cyclists in the world.

Pretty much my point.

You may find me miserable Nick, I don't really care. I just find it depressing that bikes are treated by so many as just more stuff to buy/replace with new stuff as another part of the consumer treadmill, when they have the potential for so much good.

So if someone rides to Africa to build a school on their Venge it's ok? Bit weird.

Al, IIRC, you're one of those running that very consumer treadmill. So, a bit rich to moan about people buying and replacing their bike stuff, isn't it?

Wondering when the aero benefits of a 1" steerer will be realized.

My Giant OCR from 2000 had a 1" headset, aero profiled downtube, slightly dropped seat stays and compact design, it was well ahead of its time. Pity some **** pinched it before I could turn it into a budget TT bike.

njee20 - Member
So if someone rides to Africa to build a school on their Venge it's ok? Bit weird.

How often does that happen? 🙄 not really what I meant.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
Al, IIRC, you're one of those running that very consumer treadmill. So, a bit rich to moan about people buying and replacing their bike stuff, isn't it?

3 minutes, disappointing. And incorrect to boot!

Please accept my apologies. I thought you worked in the bike trade, Al.

My Giant OCR from 2000 had a 1" headset, aero profiled downtube, slightly dropped seat stays and compact design, it was well ahead of its time. Pity some **** pinched it before I could turn it into a budget TT bike.

I used one of those (edit or was it a TCR?) owned by a friend for a triathlon once, lovely bike.

I ride around on a 1" headset '00 Trek 2300, still going strong, and getting closer to the cutting edge of aero too(?).

I do, Kevin (lets forego forum logons?) But upgradeitis is a small part of what I do.

Apology retracted then.

Do you repair punctured tubes? Or just bang a new tube in, like everyone else?

Sorry, but that "small part" is tosh. If you're in bike retail, even as a mechanic, you're involved in a business of selling people stuff and/or service. Selling stuff/service to make a profit. If you want to save the world, there are plenty of cycling charities who I am sure would welcome your experience. So, unless you work pro-bono, stop whining about people spending money on nice new things if they want to.

Yes, its black and white, no grey!

Have to say, I expected better.

Never fear, ugly ass spacers are also available!

[img] [/img]

Also, Chri Yu posted some data on the Weightweenies site and was quite frank about it.

In essence, the old Venge comes out bottom compared to other competitors "aero" frames. This new frame appears leaps and bounds ahead of everyone when looking at a Figure but in reality is 25s quicker over 40km then the old Venge (bear in mind the old one didn't fare well compared to the competition so is a lower starting point). Same as swapping from a BOA shoe to a lace up.

So, you might as well swap out your old BOA S-Works for some lace ups and buy any old "aero" bike for the same gains as dropping £11,000 on this new Venge and keeping your BOA shoes. If you buy this bike make damned well sure you buy the full "aero" package! 😆

Here's the page, other aero frame sonly slightly faster than old Venge.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133067&start=225

Youid also think they'd expose the steerer to lower the frames frontal area, then have the head tube sit behind it, only attached at the bearings. Prob violate uci rules.

Fully paid up member of the aero club here. Took delivery of my replacement Propel SL this weekend. How much difference does it make? To be honest, the skinsuit, aero helmet and wheels make up the biggest gains. I doubt the aero frame saves more that a few watts.

But... when I race, and racing is at 25 mph for long periods, I'm definitely using less energy because I have more in reserve in the last 30 minutes. So yes it makes a difference. But there is no way I'd want THOSE bars on my bike. Cav rides a too-small frame anyway for stiffness rather than aero. That's pretty common for the pros.

I just find it depressing that bikes are treated by so many as just more stuff to buy/replace with new stuff as another part of the consumer treadmill, when they have the potential for so much good.

[quote=cynic-al ]I love the tech but how many of us or the buyers can sustain the 40kph the savings are measured at?

I could. For an hour, and I never made it past 3rd cat. Even now I'm much less fit I'd expect to manage that when doing my turn in a break (ignoring the fact I wouldn't make it into a break). Not that I'd dare ride one of those in a 3rd cat race, but I dare say most people spending their own money on one don't care how much it would improve their performance in a fish and chipper.

Let's be honest here, even really expensive bikes aren't the height of consumer wastefulness. I mean plenty of normal people blow thousands of pounds a year on depreciation for pretty boring cars, when they could instead buy a 3yo car and a Venge ViAS.

Jamesdo, agreed.

But... when I race, and racing is at 25 mph for long periods

...in a bunch, where the aero savings are much less - but no one has released any data for this, if they have it.

even really expensive bikes aren't the height of consumer wastefulness

My point isn't about £ wasted, just not being on the "must...have...new...stuff" treadmill.

Is there evidence of this treadmill?

Has anyone here, at all, said "I have to order one of those, my McLaren Venge is holding me back so much"? I really don't understand your point. Should manufacturers not produce new things? Not just bikes, but cars, televisions, ovens, sofas?

in a bunch, where the aero savings are much less - but no one has released any data for this, if they have it.

You trot this out every time, road racing is about moments, whether that be closing gaps, making the break, the sprint finish or just clinging onto the group. If every time you're closing a gap your bike is moar aero than the next you'll arrive at the finish fresher and be more likely to contest the sprint, make it in the break or just not get dropped.

You won't get the point with that level of disinterest Nick.

MF I don't recall making that point ever before. In any event I often see the "well its better and no matter how small the improvement is it has to make a difference and road racing is about tiny differences".

That point pretty much trumps any criticism, or it would, if it were correct, but there more to it than that.

in a bunch, where the aero savings are much less - but no one has released any data for this, if they have it.

Actually, I sit on the front and drag the bunch back to breakaways 😆 . (Then die mid pack to recover). The aero savings will still be apparent in the bunch as the airspeed is what determines the savings, but the power necessary to sustain speed will be lower, of course.

I notice the extra aero effects passing riders along the straight at Hillingdon in every crit I race. A lot of those savings are from the skinsuit and helmet, but aero is aero.

cynic-al - Member
.....road racing is about tiny differences

....That point pretty much trumps any criticism, or it would, if it were correct, but there more to it than that.

I'm sure the top race teams are beating a path to your door 😆

hilldodger - Member
I'm sure the top race teams are beating a path to your door

Of course this matters when you may make an important place or not, that's not my point.