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Thinking about this I wonder if Giant would still be brave enough to goad Spec into a Propel vs Venge wind tunnel test!
Wondering when the aero benefits of a 1" steerer will be realized.
Really want to see more pictures of the laced shoes!
Not sure they look as good as Empires. To me, at least.
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The "Warp sleeve" for MOAR AERONESS
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Now, obviously, laced shoes are clearly MOAR AERO as Wiggins rode the hour in his Empires. So, that's a science fact now.
What are giants figures on the Propel?
I love the tech but how many of us or the buyers can sustain the 40kph the savings are measured at?
I love the tech but how many of us or the buyers can sustain the 40kph the savings are measured at?
Does it matter, Al? Of course not! It's like the watch that's waterproof to the bottom of the Marianas Trench and sends out an emergency signal in all known languages, and Esperanto, at the touch of a button.
No one outside of the pro peloton really NEEDS any of this twaddle. Especially not for their [s]races[/s] sportives. They WANT it. 😀
The "they" in this case, being bike shop customers with money to spend. 🙂
Beyond that, however, as with the Pro-XC thread, it's interesting to see new tech being pushed, as that newness will gradually become what normal people ride. As was seen with the original RS1, for example.
I get that Flasher, just doing my reality check on the Venge/Omega etc buying fraternity on here.
I guess they can spec a triple or compact on their Venge, and buy a size smaller to accommodate the belly...maybe SBC will even release that them with some rise?
You're a miserable sod aren't you Al?!
you two really sound quite bitter.
it's a professional's road bike designed to be ridden by the best cyclists in the world.
I haven't done any road racing this year but I've been enjoying the local chain gang, we generally manage about 40km/h, last week me and one of the young guys decided to try and get off the front and hold off the group for a lap. I might have managed it if I'd had my skin suit on...
CaptainFlashHeart - Not sure they look as good as Empires. To me, at least.
Na, you're right, they're def not as pretty! I'd actually just ordered the Empire's before seeing your post so pretty happy now 😀 £150 on Evans if anyone was wanting a pair... Lolz at the Warp Sleeve!
I believe Empire's were actually originally designed as an aero TT shoe for Taylor Phinney.
Empires definitely look better than the Spesh ones!
What I took away from those articles is that this new bike and new wheels may save you 120s over 40km compared to a Tarmac. But some aero gear (skinsuit/ shoes/ helmet) and tyres may save you 180s over 40km. So, 60% of the aero moar-ness can be acheived for less than 10% of the cost of the final 40% aero savings. Which would you choose? The £11000 bike with the nonadjustable stem of course 😆
it's a professional's road bike designed to be ridden by the best cyclists in the world.
Pretty much my point.
You may find me miserable Nick, I don't really care. I just find it depressing that bikes are treated by so many as just more stuff to buy/replace with new stuff as another part of the consumer treadmill, when they have the potential for so much good.
So if someone rides to Africa to build a school on their Venge it's ok? Bit weird.
Al, IIRC, you're one of those running that very consumer treadmill. So, a bit rich to moan about people buying and replacing their bike stuff, isn't it?
Wondering when the aero benefits of a 1" steerer will be realized.
My Giant OCR from 2000 had a 1" headset, aero profiled downtube, slightly dropped seat stays and compact design, it was well ahead of its time. Pity some **** pinched it before I could turn it into a budget TT bike.
njee20 - Member
So if someone rides to Africa to build a school on their Venge it's ok? Bit weird.
How often does that happen? 🙄 not really what I meant.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Al, IIRC, you're one of those running that very consumer treadmill. So, a bit rich to moan about people buying and replacing their bike stuff, isn't it?
3 minutes, disappointing. And incorrect to boot!
Please accept my apologies. I thought you worked in the bike trade, Al.
My Giant OCR from 2000 had a 1" headset, aero profiled downtube, slightly dropped seat stays and compact design, it was well ahead of its time. Pity some **** pinched it before I could turn it into a budget TT bike.
I used one of those (edit or was it a TCR?) owned by a friend for a triathlon once, lovely bike.
I ride around on a 1" headset '00 Trek 2300, still going strong, and getting closer to the cutting edge of aero too(?).
I do, Kevin (lets forego forum logons?) But upgradeitis is a small part of what I do.
Apology retracted then.
Do you repair punctured tubes? Or just bang a new tube in, like everyone else?
Sorry, but that "small part" is tosh. If you're in bike retail, even as a mechanic, you're involved in a business of selling people stuff and/or service. Selling stuff/service to make a profit. If you want to save the world, there are plenty of cycling charities who I am sure would welcome your experience. So, unless you work pro-bono, stop whining about people spending money on nice new things if they want to.
Yes, its black and white, no grey!
Have to say, I expected better.
Never fear, ugly ass spacers are also available!
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Also, Chri Yu posted some data on the Weightweenies site and was quite frank about it.
In essence, the old Venge comes out bottom compared to other competitors "aero" frames. This new frame appears leaps and bounds ahead of everyone when looking at a Figure but in reality is 25s quicker over 40km then the old Venge (bear in mind the old one didn't fare well compared to the competition so is a lower starting point). Same as swapping from a BOA shoe to a lace up.
So, you might as well swap out your old BOA S-Works for some lace ups and buy any old "aero" bike for the same gains as dropping £11,000 on this new Venge and keeping your BOA shoes. If you buy this bike make damned well sure you buy the full "aero" package! 😆
Here's the page, other aero frame sonly slightly faster than old Venge.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133067&start=225
Youid also think they'd expose the steerer to lower the frames frontal area, then have the head tube sit behind it, only attached at the bearings. Prob violate uci rules.
Fully paid up member of the aero club here. Took delivery of my replacement Propel SL this weekend. How much difference does it make? To be honest, the skinsuit, aero helmet and wheels make up the biggest gains. I doubt the aero frame saves more that a few watts.
But... when I race, and racing is at 25 mph for long periods, I'm definitely using less energy because I have more in reserve in the last 30 minutes. So yes it makes a difference. But there is no way I'd want THOSE bars on my bike. Cav rides a too-small frame anyway for stiffness rather than aero. That's pretty common for the pros.
They do both I think. The top end stuff is marketing that sells bikes at all levels, that keeps the company afloat so they can make cheaper stuff for everyday use. ie the piles of cheap Meridas and Giants you see in Asia being ridden for transport, as well as the 'golfer' types refered to here that buy $7000+ carbon race bikes and pootle up the local hills. They just enjoy nice kit. Anyone a bit perplexed by the so-called ATGNI roadies of box hill would have a fit if they saw what was ridden up the popular ~250m climbs in Taiwan most mornings. 20 mile loops mainly. Lots of relaxed chat. Saw 3 Master X-lites dripping in top-end campag in the last week and a way higher %ge of really top-end road bikes than I see locally at home. All doing a very pedestrian pace, all very happy and friendly.I just find it depressing that bikes are treated by so many as just more stuff to buy/replace with new stuff as another part of the consumer treadmill, when they have the potential for so much good.
[quote=cynic-al ]I love the tech but how many of us or the buyers can sustain the 40kph the savings are measured at?
I could. For an hour, and I never made it past 3rd cat. Even now I'm much less fit I'd expect to manage that when doing my turn in a break (ignoring the fact I wouldn't make it into a break). Not that I'd dare ride one of those in a 3rd cat race, but I dare say most people spending their own money on one don't care how much it would improve their performance in a fish and chipper.
Let's be honest here, even really expensive bikes aren't the height of consumer wastefulness. I mean plenty of normal people blow thousands of pounds a year on depreciation for pretty boring cars, when they could instead buy a 3yo car and a Venge ViAS.
Jamesdo, agreed.
But... when I race, and racing is at 25 mph for long periods
...in a bunch, where the aero savings are much less - but no one has released any data for this, if they have it.
even really expensive bikes aren't the height of consumer wastefulness
My point isn't about £ wasted, just not being on the "must...have...new...stuff" treadmill.
Is there evidence of this treadmill?
Has anyone here, at all, said "I have to order one of those, my McLaren Venge is holding me back so much"? I really don't understand your point. Should manufacturers not produce new things? Not just bikes, but cars, televisions, ovens, sofas?
in a bunch, where the aero savings are much less - but no one has released any data for this, if they have it.
You trot this out every time, road racing is about moments, whether that be closing gaps, making the break, the sprint finish or just clinging onto the group. If every time you're closing a gap your bike is moar aero than the next you'll arrive at the finish fresher and be more likely to contest the sprint, make it in the break or just not get dropped.
You won't get the point with that level of disinterest Nick.
MF I don't recall making that point ever before. In any event I often see the "well its better and no matter how small the improvement is it has to make a difference and road racing is about tiny differences".
That point pretty much trumps any criticism, or it would, if it were correct, but there more to it than that.
in a bunch, where the aero savings are much less - but no one has released any data for this, if they have it.
Actually, I sit on the front and drag the bunch back to breakaways 😆 . (Then die mid pack to recover). The aero savings will still be apparent in the bunch as the airspeed is what determines the savings, but the power necessary to sustain speed will be lower, of course.
I notice the extra aero effects passing riders along the straight at Hillingdon in every crit I race. A lot of those savings are from the skinsuit and helmet, but aero is aero.
cynic-al - Member
.....road racing is about tiny differences....That point pretty much trumps any criticism, or it would, if it were correct, but there more to it than that.
I'm sure the top race teams are beating a path to your door 😆
hilldodger - Member
I'm sure the top race teams are beating a path to your door
Of course this matters when you may make an important place or not, that's not my point.
[quote=cynic-al ]MF I don't recall making that point ever before. In any event I often see the "well its better and no matter how small the improvement is it has to make a difference and road racing is about tiny differences".
It's not even about the small differences here - I don't think MF mentioned that at all. The point is that the performance when in the bunch is fairly irrelevant - the important part of races is when you're on the front in the wind, pulling the bunch (if that's you're job), making a break or sprinting for the win. If you can get an advantage there it will make a real difference to your race performance.
Just looking at the shots of Cav's bike from the Tour ([url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/mark-cavendishs-tour-de-france-specialized-s-works-venge-vias ]here[/url]) I think the only thing on it from sponsor FSA are the stickers on the bar tape!
Probably still remembering those chain drops. I guess it just shows that some pro's still get to ride what they want regardless of sponsor commitments.
Had a mail shot from a specialized store about the new bike. Top spec and nice wheels, but the 9 grand price tag still made me laugh 🙂
They've stuck them on the new disc Vias now...
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That is one ugly bike. The only way I think they could make it any uglier would be to stick their Cobble Gobbler seatpost on it.
Jesus, that's a bloody horrible looking bike. Everything, from the chainset upwards, is nasty and I normally like bikes with deep wheels.
I thought that was a fat bike with drop bars.... 😳