[Closed] Riding/Training with a very tiring job.

Are you getting a decent night's sleep? Min 8 hrs? After that check your diet!

What job do you do?

Young family here (toddler and newborn) and busy job(s) so sleep has suddenly become a more precious commodity than ever before. I found I've had to set myself realistic expectations that a) i'm not going to get any fitter or faster b) keep the weight controlled c) just try and do something on two wheels at least a couple times per week. No heroics for me as trying to train with intensity whilst not getting enough sleep just destroyed me (physically and mood).

As El Vino said sleep is starting point.

This is a good review: Click me for Science stuff

Snacking through the day rather than big meals helps me avoid the crater point after lunch. Iron and Vitamin D supplements help provide energy and the former definitely helps me.

I ride to and from work rather than needing extra time to do exercise, that way there's a financial/traffic motivation to do it as well.

I'm a teacher.

Sleep is about 7.5 hours in the week. 8.5 - 9 at weekends.

Diets all fine and well balanced (all cooked fresh). Increased carb intake recently as the training load increased. A typical meal is a chicken breast, various veg, half a tin of mixed beans, rice/noodles, spices for flavour. All diced.

I really struggle sometimes with having the motivation and energy to ride.
A hard week day on the ropes can be very physical and being outside in all weathers adds to it. There are plenty of days when I get home and it’s all I can do to stay awake on the sofa let alone get on the turbo or go out and ride.
It’s a bit easier in the summer when I can head out mega early before work or the sunny light evenings override the feeling of fatigue but this time of year I often end up going for days without turning a pedal.
I just console myself that at least the job itself is keeping be reasonably fit

Rest, recovery and common sense?

Maybe start a bit slower and build up, if your pushing through when you are knackered then you are not going to get back from that point without some time off.

Trying to do too much?

Personally I'd sack off the 3-4 sessions on TR, go to 1 (if you can't get out and ride your bike midweek), then do something else like swimming. Riding shouldn't be a chore, should be enjoying it, do you really need to sit on a turbo during the week for extended periods of time?

I ride 80-100miles a week, 6000-10000ft of climbing, depending on the time of year.
Monday-Swim
Tuesday-Nothing
Wednesday-Local xc fast paced ride
Thursday-Local xc club ride
Friday - Pump track (April to October)
Saturday - Big ride somewhere (20-30 miles, 3-5000ft climbing)
Sunday - Morning/full day somwhere, 2000-5000ft climbing

I have no interest in sitting on a turbo, I find it dull and boring, which is not why I ride my bike.

As for the tiredness, sleep? what are you eating?

I think doing something that would stimulate your mind would be helpful.

Turbo training is dull. Really, really dull. Even with a fancy turbo, a Zwift/TR/Peleton subscription. I've tried it many a time, even for a whole winter training process & I felt like throwing the whole thing in a skip - it demotivated me to the point of not being interested in trying or pushing myself.

Find something more interesting to do, preferably that makes you commit, as it's very easy to ease back when you're on your own, in the spare room & just not feeling it for the third week in a row.

Save riding the bike for the weekend when you actually get to ride it for fun 🙂

What time of day are you doing your riding/training?
How long is your commute?

I have a 4 year old and 7 month old and a job that can be stressful. Time on the bike and fitness took a real dive in the summer last year after the baby arrived. It's certainly more difficult with a baby around but I think for me it's sleep that makes the biggest difference. I've noticed recently since I have been getting more quality sleep that I have more motivation.
Setting an actual goal helps me so that I'm training towards something. I'm doing the South Downs 100 in July and an enduro race in September (I did a few last year until baby arrived). Both are perfectly do able, but require training. 2 interval sessions on the turbo and 3 indoor workouts a week breaks it up so that I'm not just on the bike and I get some variety in my training. A good fun social ride on a Sunday morning is always easy to get up for and never a chore.

Have a read about polarized training. By the sound of it you are the classic example of easy sessions not easy enough and hard sessions not hard enough with everything you are doing getting very similair, making you tired but not really dragging fitness up.

It's a running book, but if you can get hold of Matt Fitzgerald 80/20 running it may completely change your mindset about whats required and you'll likely get more out of riding and training.

Read about polarized training- will help a lot.

a) Have a goal, otherwise you aren't motivated to do it.

b) Turbo training needn't be boring, if you are doing it properly and putting some effort into it

c) Have a non structured day to ride to look forward to.

d) Get some sleep

e) If you really want to train for success, make some sacrifices that help the above - structure your time, go to bed earlier, stop/reduce drinking.

I work 60hrs a weekly in a highly stressful job travelling all over the country, cannot commute by bike have 2 kids and still get between 5-12hrs a week in.  I always read my kids bedtime stories and always spend time with them at weekends.  Mind you, Mondays 5am walk in the rain to the mancave for my Sprint sessions was a mental challenge.

I’m a teacher.

I asked because I was curious if it was a physically demanding job.

I've got family (3 kids) and a job which often takes me away from home for days at a time, and can keep me on my feet all day. One thing I learned a long time ago was :

Riding shouldn’t be a chore, should be enjoying it,

I can't add much to that other than I found turbo training the most soul destroying thing I've ever done on a bike. I'd much rather be out in the dark and rain. Having quite a huge group of riding friends helps.

I used to race to Elite/GB level in MTB, road & cyclocross whilst working a 50hrs week as a kitchen and bathroom fitter.

The simple answer is, I don’t know. I used to race 3-4 times a week and work 7-4:30/5. I slept a lot and ate well but it wasn’t easy.

Half the battle is starting the session, once you are committed half the work is done, you’re often not as knackered. As you think you are.

The main goal is to get faster and so far its working. Just hard to keep at it but it could just be this time of year.

Mentally I'm exhausted after work too so cant do anything that involves too much thinking. I do enjoy the riding and don't find the turbo that dull. With music on, an hours session flies by. I really hate riding in the rain. I mean really really hate it to the point where id stop during a ride and wait for the rain to stop.

I think its more metal exhaustion rather than physical, but still prevents me from pushing myself. I managed to push quite hard during last Mondays ride but then I had a long lay in the Saturday and didn't ride all weekend.

Weekday rides are usually 5:30pm. I did an early morning one last week (just zone 2 and 3) but this meant only 6.5 hours of sleep so felt rough the next day.

cjr61: feel your pain.

one almost 18 month old here. was premature and tha meant 3 hour round the clock feeds for the first few months. now with teething and various things picked up at nursery its rare to get a good nights sleep. get the odd week here and there but thats about it. on top of that, there are nursery drop offs some mornings. i cant imagine having more than one

two mornings a week i do intervals on indoor bike (or i fix my bike if any maintenace is needed). before hitting shower, and similar on the weekends i dont actually ride. (commuting by bike isnt an option as its 20 motorway miles). i listen to a podcast, or now i've modded my indoor trainer **** about on zwift.

as they say, get in where you fit in.

I got to the point of near breakdown a couple of years ago - stressful job, very long work hours on top of commuting and doing up a house meant little time for exercise, so when I did train I'd try to make up for it and thrash myself which seemed to compound the issue leaving me permanently exhausted.

Moving on two years and a life change which has included getting a coach (E3 Coaching), no specific goals but I now have a structured plan to fit around my job and life (12+ hr days mon-thurs). The key thing with the coach which works for me is that I have a plan for riding, turbo and core sessions to fit in around the time I have and are effective plus allow for recovery which is almost as important. I'm a lot fitter, stronger, happy that I'm making the most of the time I have for riding and not a perpetual bundle of rage.

I’m a teacher.

Teaching is mentally tough, cycling is physical try to sepatate the two things in your head. Treat cycling as a treat maybe try and think of the training less as training more as fun.

Coach is a good shout - Not done it myself but I reckon it would give you a lot of structure and focus. Perhaps some offer good rates to try it out for a month or so?

Depends on what your goals are - they'd need to be performance-based to merit a coach, not just wanting to be generally strong or wanting to do a particular big event (IMHO). Don't know how fast you are but I wouldn't see a coach as something exclusive to exceptional riders, either. If it makes you faster and helps you train then it doesn't really matter.

So it's mental load rather than physical.

I think our brains need rest as much as our bodies. Today and yesterday I've been mentally tired and run down, and all I want to do is watch telly even though I have the opportunity to ride. So I realised I could combine both and I watched telly whilst riding on the rollers. Sod Trainer Road, Netflix is better some days 🙂

Another thing that worked all summer was not bothering to train and just shredding dry trails. Got loads done.

The key thing with the coach which works for me is that I have a plan for riding, turbo and core sessions to fit in around the time I have and are effective plus allow for recovery which is almost as important. I’m a lot fitter, stronger, happy that I’m making the most of the time I have for riding and not a perpetual bundle of rage.

+1 The other thing about having a coach is accountability.  It really focuses your training.  And what blazin saddles said - my 5am session was after Long Saturday and Sunday VO2max and sweet spot, two years ago i would have dreamed of three sessions in a row

I say this perhaps slightly tongue in cheek but not being very good helps.  I’m not naturally gifted with power or ability so what I have comes and grows from training. While I want to race it’s important for me to put the effort into what I’m paying my coach for and realise the results for me and him, therefore it’s easier for me to commit and be dedicated to the session I’m told to do.

Train hard in all those long holidays you get? 😉

I ran myself into the ground trying to keep up same volume of training when boy2 came along.

comment about thrashing self when getting out on a proper ride ring true. I started popping caffeine pills before rides to try to cover up lack of sleep, illness and fading fitness. so if keep up with mates smash out a 20mph ride and then be destroyed for the rest of the week. was really stupid.to do....

still trying to undo damage to body and mind!

I always love people who say get more sleep. as if people with serious sleep deficit have a bloody choice

OP what sort of base have you?

If you've suddenly increased your training load significantly that may be the explanation

I keep a spreadsheet on the desktop screen of my laptop. It records my rides. Date, temperature, weather, how I'm feeling before the ride, type of ride, time, distance, how I feel afterwards.
How I feel before is usually "reluctant" or "very reluctant". How I feel afterwards is usually "great".
No matter how I feel or what the weather is like I can always find a previous ride where it started out worse and I got back feeling great.
It helps my motivation.
It's called "You never don't feel better after a bike ride.xlsx".

Everyone is different. Do what suits you, not the next person. If it feels too much it probably is and therefore not sustainable.

My story - similar to how you describe. My mountain biking had become less regular in recent years. Having been part of my life since teenage years, I took the fitness for granted and tried to keep up the big long rides, only more occasional with less interim activity. These spikes in intense activity (without realising) were flattening me mentally and physically for days afterwards. After taking stock and seeking advice, I've accepted I have to do more regular, consistent, less intensive exercise to the point it barely feels worth going out sometimes. And that's the mentality I now accept while I build fitness back up - not in 3-4 weeks, more like forever. I'll do more gradually, won't always be 20 minute runs at fast walking pace...

OP what sort of base have you?

Better than usual for me. I'm use to riding once a week but just completed SSB1 and 2 in TR. On a long ride the other week I felt stronger and less fatigued at the end so I know the trainings doing something.

Have you looked at using one of those 'fit' watches to tell you what quality of sleep you are getting ?

Mates got a cheap one and found a couple of things he was doing that we reducing the amount of quality/recovery sleep he was getting, so he stopped them !

Also, can you switch some of your training to something you can do in the middle of the work day, which will actually energise you through the day.

We used to be in a building with a gym and I used to hit the stepper machine for 30 mins or so at lunchtime, using a setting of 7 rather than the one with no resistence and where you have to step like crazy to stay up, and it improved the power in my legs massively.

Now I use the staircase at work to do 3 or so sets of flights, just enought to avoid getting sweaty, and it helps my legs as well. Could always wear a rucksack with osme weights in to make it more of a workout if your legs are too strong to make it a workout anyway.

Better than usual for me. I’m use to riding once a week but just completed SSB1 and 2 in TR. On a long ride the other week I felt stronger and less fatigued at the end so I know the trainings doing something.

I don't think you've understood. have you increased gradually to your new training load?

It sounds like for whatever reason you're getting fatigued. Could be too hard/too soon/too often, or it could be you're coming down with something, or perhaps need to eat more/better or sleep more.

Either way I'd listen to your body and not try to push through it too hard, you'll just end up more fatigued and maybe injured. If you get it right then the training will become easier, eventually, but it can take years to get to that point.

My solution was to stop trying!

Currently got two children under two. I've just taken a chilled approach of riding for fun whenever i can and feel like it, and not getting stressed and trying to do too much.

My OH is a teacher. It's a very tiring job, you're on your feet all day trying to control 30 kids, then doing marking and planning. You've got to be realistic about what you can do in the evenings.

My solution was to stop trying!

Currently got two children under two. I’ve just taken a chilled approach of riding for fun whenever i can and feel like it, and not getting stressed and trying to do too much.

This!

Are you hitting the power numbers on trainer road when you do the sessions. If you are then surely everything is OK. Training is hard sometimes and it does not always feel fun.

Sometimes you have to ask am I prepared for the commitment to train to get better or do I want to have fun on a bike. If its the former then sometimes you have to tell yourself to toughen up and jump on the turbo.

If you are struggling to hit the power numbers on the workouts that's a different matter and maybe look at your nutrition etc. Are you properly fuelled and hydrated. If you think you are probably time to retest FTP.

The longer TR sessions are hard and I often go into them thinking can I actually do it. Most of the time once I start I make it through. Its rare to fail and when I do its normally a mental failure rather than physical.

I don’t think you’ve understood. have you increased gradually to your new training load?

Yes it's been gradual. I think it's mostly work having an impact on feeling over tired recently.

Are you hitting the power numbers on trainer road when you do the sessions.

Yeah the powers fine. It's just maintaining it for the interval duration I'm struggling with. Recovery between intervals even feels fine and my resting HR is lower than it has been in months. Maybe it's physical and work stress making me feel tired physically?

Yeah the powers fine. It’s just maintaining it for the interval duration I’m struggling with.

Then its not, is it.

You're tired my friend.  Take some time off, and when you start again, use the mountain of advice you can find and recover properly.

Thanks for all the advice. I can't actually remember the last day I had a proper rest and did nothing so aiming to rest more now. I try to fit in some yoga and core stuff when I'm not riding so think I'll cut that out for a week or so and see how it goes.

Cooking a nice curry right now with Netflix all set up!

I feel all your pain, I leave the house at 7am and get back at 6pm; if I’m lucky. My job is physically easy but mentally draining.
My wife is a full time primary school teacher and home tutor so leaves for tutoring when I get back and tutors for an hour most nights. So I’m left with bedtime and dinner routine for a 3 year old and a 10 year old.
I struggle to fit anything in ! If I do it usually means I’m eating my evening meal at 10pm.
I manage to do karate once a week and ride Saturday and Sunday mornings, then hope that one day life will return to normal 🙂

I have a mentaly demanding job. Getting on the bike is my time to switch off. Try looking at the training as a reward and a time to concentrate/or not on something other than your job. Set easy achievable goals and dont over exert yourself on unachievable goals.

As Kyrton said if you can't maintain the power for the interval then its not fine. Maybe re-do the ramp test to double check your FTP is sensible and you are not over reaching.

How many sessions a week are you doing? are you following one of the low volume plans on trainer road?

Also how old are you, recovery gets harder as we get older.

Only you will know if you are mentally bailing out or if its a physical thing.

Though if you tell me you are 30 and generally fit usually I would be saying go see your doctor and make sure there are no underlying issues causing the fatigue.

I am not a particularly sporty person I leave the house at 6am do a 9hr day at work with a 45min commute each way. I do 4 strength sessions a week at the gym and 3 trainer road sessions. I am 49 (this week 🙁 ) and I do get tired and I do have to force myself to do the TR sessions most of the time. I just tell my self that its still a lot less than Ironman training 🙂

Im 35 with no known health problems other than being Celiac.

Regarding TR, each week I'm doing 3 sessions with a few core strength sessions too. When I have time I substitute the Saturday session for an outdoor ride.

The longer threshold sessions are manageable but my weakness seems to be sustaining VO2 max. Last week I did Baird -1 which was 3 lots of 5x1 min VO2 max with 1 min rest between intervals and I completed that fine and even felt quite good afterwards. Monday this week was Bashful +2 and I really struggled. That was 3 lots of 5x1.5 min VO2 max / Anaerobic with 1 min rest between intervals and I only managed to sustain target power for 80 of each 90 second interval.

Interestingly since Monday I've seen a drop in my resting HR from 62 to 56 so maybe I was overdoing it and having the last few days to rest a bit has helped?

mjsmke you've made me feel a lot a better, as I've been happily competing 3x15mins at VO2max all January 😀

I was struggling on the last interval with 3x8 mins before Christmas, I had Christmas week off completely and voila 3x15 wasn't an issue.  Even though I have a coach to tell me, I find rest hard to manage and I know from past experience when self-guided its very easy to not rest enough - the temptation is "its not working so I need to train more/harder".

I don't believe that Kryton - friel and others in the literature say a cyclist can do max 5mins at proper VO2 max, so surely you arent trebling this. Presumably you are riding supratheshold but not real vo2 max

OP, In the podcasts TR have suggested a couple of approaches for masters level athletes who maybe can't recover as quick, either 1 week on, 1 week off or doing a three day cycle: hard session, easy session, day off. With the calendar feature it's easy to organise either. The key is to hit the hard sessions ready to do the work and get max benefits. I did the later approach through cx season and found it much more mentally manageable. I was also v busy at work and home so know the feeling!

As we are taking about interval training I'm referring to 105-120& of Threshold power.  No ones riding at maximal oxygen uptake for that long, no.

Or L5 as describe here - http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2015/05/power-training-zones-101.html

And yes I do feel like that L5 descriptor afterward, and yes I am breathing out of my arse at the end.  We are focusing on muscular endurance so I do sweet spot the day after - yes its very hard but nothing worth having comes easy.  I'm sitting here with my legs throbbing as I type.

This was at the top end of VO2 max and going into Anaerobic. There's no way I could do 120% of FTP for more than about 4 mins. I can manage under/over sessions with 12 min intervals fine. It's just the longer VO2 max I'm struggling with. It's my legs that give up before my lungs.

I've been averaging 70hrs a week since the end of October due to a sudden increase in my area of responsibility. It's completely my own doing really but it's temporary and hopefully the end is in sight some time I march. my job is primarily mentally tiring but some 4am starts twice a week take their toll and the first thing to be affected had been my interest in doing any exercise and I've probably not done a tenth of what I was doing in the autumn.

Kyrton.
Would you agree with the following?

I think when you test ftp you come in a little under what’s expected, thus your zones are set a little too low.

Whether this is due to a natural phenomena or because you’re not trained in this department would have to be assessed.
3x15mins at 105-120% is a bit out of normal parameters in my experience and from most accepted studies, even that article you linked too stated above 8mins in this zone was not really possible.

Please note mate that this is not a dig, quite the opposite in fact, as it could be that you are underestimating your ftp and could be further along the bell curve of cyclists than you think. (I know this doesn’t affect race performance but it’s nice for bragging rights).

Further anecdotal evidence to support this would be when we discuss sweetspot work (90-95% ftp). I find The difference between doing the intervals at 90% or 95% very marked, so a 5% difference makes a large impact. If your ftp was just set 5% too low then your 105% intervals would be actually at threshold and 3x15’s would be possible (but still brutally hard)

If you can do 3x15 intervals at 110% then I’d say that figure would be darn close to your actual ftp.

Food for thought?

Sorry OP. By the way my wife’s a teacher and it looks to be about the most exhausting job there is. I’d suggest fitting riding around your job, forget training and just getting out whenever possible. Record your tss and see how you ctl graph looks after a year. You might be able to see trends then get into some more focussed training.

@Kryton57 - I just didnt feel it was that helpful to the OP to brag about how good your VO2 max training was when he is querying not finishing intervals. AS others have said further up, so much of it is mental, especially those 125% 3min VO2 max ones (I find), knocking someone doesnt seem helpful.

Thankfully I'm just starting base training so I have a bit of time till that starts 🙂 Though 2hrs of z2 along cold, dark rainy cyclepaths pre-work has its own type of pain

Ferrals - I'm not bragging.   I'm trying to show him that I was as physically and mentally destroyed as he was pre Christmas, yet with a bit of rest I've come good and have actually achieved more than I could achieve before it.  I'm trying to demonstrate the impact of the rest period with a real example.

If I was bragging I'd have posted about how I'm holding 500w for 15 mins x 3 - which I've course I'm not and have nothing to be proud of in that respect.

@rollindoughnut you may be right, I'm too close to an event to test/change now but I will be testing again before the next training phase. However 99% of my current zone 5 max watts is well over midway through the same Zone prescribed before it dropped, yeah so maybe I'm doing 3x15 at 110% rather than 115%.

Fair dos, I misread your post.. looking back i see where you were coming from. Shouldnt ahve posted after a couple of beers 🙂

Re. the mental side, this TR podcast with Amber Pierce is well worth a listen with her experiances of racing abroad, and how the extra cognative load meant she and others couldnt attain the same wattage as they would at home. While it a totally different context it was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me, rang very true with me and explains my less than desired performance through the last year xc and cx seasons.

think when you test ftp you come in a little under what’s expected

Just to address that, I was 12w under prior FTP.  Not a huge amount.

Next week is a scheduled recovery week with 3 sessions of aerobic endurance so hoping I'll feel some gains after that. Im only 59kg so not expecting FTP gains, a few extra watts will make a noticeable difference and already feel my muscular endurance has improved at the lower end.

Record your tss and see how you ctl graph looks after a year.

I'm quite new to using this sort of info to analyse training but can see a gradual increase in TSS over the last month. In one of my other threads about base training and FTP someone said about the effects and gains of training taking time (6 weeks) to show so hoping I'll start feeling the benefits of all the effort soon.