[Closed] Riding safely & going over the bars

I didn’t think I was following too closely, and I definitely wasn’t going too fast

And yet.....

Perhaps you are right. But it really didn't feel that way. Does anyone on here honestly, and consciously, stay far below the speed limit and avoid getting within a certain distance of the back of a car in front?

I think I would if I’d had a massive stack like you OP. Take it easy out there

The speed limit is irrelevant.

Always leave a decent gap. One you can stop in safely. That gap might need to increase in wet/cold weather and/or where road surfaces are poor.

Perhaps you panicked and grabbed too much of a handful of R/H lever.

Does anyone on here honestly, and consciously, stay far below the speed limit and avoid getting within a certain distance of the back of a car in front?

Er... yes. 130,000 miles & I haven't gone OTB yet.

At risk of sounding naïve, I find the comments helpful so far. I would rather learn - however late - that I am doing something wrong that I can correct, than that cycling is inherently and constantly life-threatening.

“Does anyone on here honestly, and consciously, stay far below the speed limit and avoid getting within a certain distance of the back of a car in front?”

It’s not a speed limit thing, I just like to leave a big gap between me and the vehicle in front whether I’m forcing a car, riding a scooter or a bike, because I don’t trust people to not stop randomly!

I don’t ride road bikes, I commute on MTBs with big tyres and brakes and dropper posts. I presume you can’t stop as quickly on a high saddled short wheelbase road bike without going over the bars.

I got knocked off last year OP, just hadn't felt like riding the road bike since - still going fast on the MTB but lost the motivation to ride road.

Then second ride back on the road a woman nearly took me out at a roundabout.

Just bad luck I think, though I was riding defensively enough to take avoiding action and only end up leaning on her bonnet.

Dunno what my point is really, but I wonder what age did you start riding road bikes?

The only time I'm conscious of the speed limit commuting on my rigid/mtb is if I'm trying to go *really* fast!

I don't know if it makes any difference but I learnt to ride motorcycles when I was 17 and onwards. The things I learnt have mostly stayed with me and many transfer across to road bikes.

I don't think it's right to describe cycling (on the road) as "inherently and constantly life-threatening" though it always pays to be aware of your surroundings, other traffic and to anticipate. You can't just ride around in a dream state or assuming that every other road used will behave immaculately.

than that cycling is inherently and constantly life-threatening.

Well it is (more) if your'e on roads. You have to deal with other people & their shit antics.
If you come to grief offroad It's *usually* just yourself to blame.

Dunno what my point is really, but I wonder what age did you start riding road bikes?

I have been riding road since I was about 15. So 32 years. I grew up living in the middle of Canada, though, where the roads were very very wide, very very straight, and very very flat. And even when we did ride more challenging roads, it was with hard shoulders the size of entire British motorways (or maybe not quite). Ever seen the Tour of California? That's pretty much what I grew up riding.

Oh, and I think it may have rained once. Once.

In all honesty it sounds like you must’ve been too close for that to happen. I commute on a bike with 29er plus tyres and handlebars the width of an albatrosses wingspan. Speed isn’t an option. Get given loads of room though, but filtering is off the cards.

Take it easy SR. Maybe commute on a different bike for a bit? Take your time and look after yourself.

Commute on a fairly temperamental cx bike(short wheel base..semi hydraulic 160mm disc brakes)..panniers help..and brake modulation helps(pulse and trail... dont grab!!)...offs happen I've done an over the bars(on some very sticky tektro 10 disc brakes) and wrote off a helmet(cracked)..but it happened not again..

Take your time ..adjust to your stopping distances..easy on the brakes and practice modulation..and what's the rush?..leave plenty of stopping distance..safety first and all better be late then not get back..

Echoing most of the comments above - it sounds like you should have been a bit further from the back of the focus - and anticipating bad driving form the Caddy that had already done one bad manoeuvre.

But it’s really easy to end up too close - I did it lasts winter and didn’t have time to react to a pothole that appeared from underneath a van I was following - which resulted in a rim ding so bad I had to replace it. Luckily no crash though.

So I think whilst cycling on the road has its risks (car morons) you need to do your bit with distances you follow cars and just assuming everyone is a moron and might try to kill you - so rode a bit defensively.

On the positive side the focus driver sounded like a really nice guy - so thumbs up there!

By your own admission you were an 'aggressive' road rider and now you're not so maybe some re-calibration is required. Brakes on road bikes are not brilliant, throw in a crappy and contaminated road surface and a bit of panic because something unexpected has happened so you've grabbed the brakes harder than you might do which induces skids and increases stopping distances and that just adds to the crappyness of bike brakes compared to cars.

One of the warning signs should have been the Caddy driver and their apparent impatient and erratic behaviour. Ideally you should have had that car pegged out and been expecting the unexpected.

But easy to be wise after the event, but one rule that has served me well on the roads wether it be on bike or in car is to treat everyone on the roads as a complete idiot and expect they will do something stupid and unexpected. Never leave your safety or put your life into the hands of someone else. Don't assume that car edging out of the junction has seen you, or that articulated truck won't make that left hand turn. That mentality certainly makes you far more cautious on the road when on a bike.

Do you drive?

I'm not a road cyclist by any stretch of the imagination but on the occasions I end up riding my mountain bike on the road I'm very aware of cars being erratic and not sitting too close behind. Same as when driving really.

When I was younger I got pretty seriously injured playing football. After I'd recovered I didn't play the same way. And I got injured a couple more times, thankfully relatively minor. Eventually I got back to playing like I used to and I didn't get injured anymore.
Perhaps you are not riding 'naturally' relaxed, not 2nd guessing youreself etc. yet. When you are, you will likely be fine.

You'd already had a warning that there was a dick in front of the car in front and yet you didn't make allowances for it. If someone does something stupid once, they're likely to do it again. I think you just need to work on your roadcraft a bit.

Anyway, glad you're not too bashed up.

I did, however, have an “over-the-bars” experience this afternoon.

You put it in inverted commas - was it a genuine over the bars - i.e. stopped front wheel with you pivoting around/over the front axle and going over the top? The only possible way to go over the bars on the road.

Un-used to the bike after so long off, and just grabbed too hard is my guess. Did you hurt your right arm in your bad crash?

Braking is a full body exercise, hovering slightly over the saddle/slightly rearward, pedals level and heels as dropped as much as you can. Formerly advice was to be in the drops, but modern full hydros i'm not so sure.

You almost certainly know this, even if subconsciously, because you're good at bikes. BUT, if you've now decided to go for a gentle relaxed ride, you may have temporarily forgotten this, and just stayed sat down in the saddle with no weight in the legs and squeezed your hands. And of course, you know how you and your bike CAN stop when done properly, from prior experience, and left a stopping distance accordingly.

The only possible way to go over the bars on the road.

to correct myself - there is another way, but usually applicable on flat pedals. When you feel that "I'm not going to stop in time" and try to put a foot down when still moving. Brakes which were struggling to stop 100kg now only have to stop 10kg, stem goes into crotch and the body flops over the top of the bars.

Learn to brake hard without crashing? I think most cyclists are rubbish at braking. - but yes - too close and too fast for your skills if you lost control

I presume you can’t stop as quickly on a high saddled short wheelbase road bike without going over the bars.

The difference is negligible unless you ride around town with your weight back and the saddle down.

OP, maybe leave a big more space, and get into an instinctive not pulling hard enough to go over the bars as far as possible - I realised my trigger for this is the rear wheel locking when I went OTB braking for a dog after I'd injured my hand and using the rear brake hurt. Luckily low speed and landed on my feet...

More space will avoid you getting into a situation where you're panic braking and keep you in control. But you will occasionally have to do an emergency stop, and it's better to be ready for this.

Saxon.
As others have said, you need to dial it down a bit and ease back in to being out on the road again.
Ride defensively in traffic giving plenty space, look well ahead and always expect the unexpected.
Here’s a wee film of how some motorcyclists scan and ride as they go.
A lot of the same rules apply to cycling regardless of the speed.

Oh and..

I think most cyclists are rubbish at braking

Of course they are.
Please let the forum know when and where your research paper on this subject is being published.

fasthaggis - have been hit 3 times by cyclists not being able to stop before they crash into me as I have braked for an obstacle and having been advised by many not to use the front brake that what I think. Its just an opinion based on my observations. Braking does not seem to be a skill many cyclists practice

ime, riding modern mountain bikes makes you complacent when it comes to stopping on a road bike!

LLS mtbs, with dropper posts and massive hyraulic discs and super soft compound tyres just stop, and stop incredibly well. Their cockpits are massive (even without using the dropper) and their bars wide. And with suspension explicitly designed to work when travelling over rough terrain, you can brake pretty much whenever you want. so when you need to stop, you just move back and down, slam on the anchours and you've stopped. And of course, generally, you're not actually going that fast on an MTB!

On a road bike, it's all different. You are pearched on a narrow, short, high rigid bike, and you are probably going faster than you think. So, grab a handfull of brake in a hurry, and well, enjoy the trip, because you'll be out the front door before you can say "WTF"!

This is all really helpful. Sincere thanks to all who have proffered comments.

Mrs SR thanks you too! 🙂

I will not choose to ride less than a car length behind a vehicle unless we're going less than ~5mph.

If I'm hurtling down one off the few cat4 hills I'm happy to descend at 30mph+, I want more than two car lengths gap, if not more like 3+.

like with any form of commuting, know your route, know the potential hazard points (like site entrances/exits) for any given time of day, adjust where possible, and remember 'success' isn't measured by journey time but simply by completing the journey intact so if in any doubt hang back, create space and wait...

I commute on a fixed bike at the minute which does force me to think ahead a bit more than I might have to on my MTB; it rolls faster and carries speed, but decelerates a wee bit slower so it's entirely possible to get into more trouble that way... Much like driving you should be able to stop with in the distance you can see to be clear ahead at any given time.

Riding a bumper in traffic will probably be fine the first 50 times you do it, eventually a driver will brake-check or turn in on you....

“The difference is negligible unless you ride around town with your weight back and the saddle down.”

Whenever I’m going fast on the road (ie downhill) then I have the saddle down, or even if I’m following relatively close behind a car in traffic - I like to know that I can push my weight right back over the rear tyre, heels dropped, and use the big brakes and tyres to stop me faster than most cars can manage. Maybe I’m paranoid, maybe it’s hundreds of thousands of miles of car driving teaching me that most motorists are a liability?!!

It's commuting. I've given up road riding all together. Being a nat's todger off being paraplegic, I've binned it off. Just not worth the numerous broken bones I've suffered over the years due to driver's idiocy.

If I’m hurtling down one off the few cat4 hills I’m happy to descend at 30mph+, I want more than two car lengths gap, if not more like 3+.

The stopping distance of a 25mm tyred road bike is likely to be many many times that of a modern ABS braked car. I would want 20-30 car lengths to ensure I could stop in an emergency.

Having driven for long periods in a few countries with unsafe roads, I have to say the best thing (that I think has maybe helped protect me so far) is to ALWAYS expect other road users to do the wrong/ unexpected thing. Expect every car to stop for no reason or pull out in front of you/ cut you up etc. Never trust indicators. Never trust supposed 'eye contact' from their side, you can never be 100% sure the other party has seen you or understand what you are going to do.

Oh, and I for one would never commute on a drop bar/ narrow tyre bike. I would want the additional control that wide bars, fatter tyres and big disc brakes give you.

Having said that, and reading Fossy's post above, I would never regularly commute on a bike unless most if not all of the journey was away from cars.

I am wondering if there is something I am doing badly wrong

Having ridden together, and in the nicest possible way, your hazard perception always concerns me. You are essentially an optimist which is a bad idea on a bike!

Does anyone on here honestly, and consciously, stay far below the speed limit and avoid getting within a certain distance of the back of a car in front?

Mostly, yes. I'm always imagining what could happen. It does take a lot of concentration in traffic. I don't know if you did the video hazard perception thing on your driving test but road cycling in town is like that but on steroids, all the time. You have to know where everyone is going and if you don't, assume the worst is happening.

Also, you should never go OTB when braking. As said, braking on a bike is not something you do with your fingers, you have to do.it with your whole body. Brakes go on, weight goes back. And if you are close to a car, your fingers should be on the levers and your bum should be off the saddle ready.

Without wishing to patronise, I can help give some pointers if you like on a ride? It'll be good practice for when I have to teach my kids 🙂

The stopping distance of a 25mm tyred road bike is likely to be many many times that of a modern ABS braked car. I would want 20-30 car lengths to ensure I could stop in an emergency.

MY road bike is on 28 mm sticky tyres and I can stop it much quicker than that in around the distance the highway code states or less. If your braking distance is many times that of a car you are not braking to the max. You are limited by geometry to a bit over half a G IIRC. You should be able to hit this - Thats with the front tyre on the edge of adhesion under rotating by around 10% and the rear tyre just skimming the tarmac and using your weight to balance it.

Front brake must be squeezed on not grabbed - as you squeeze you get weight transfer that increases grip - so you can progressively build up the braking force.

My road cycling "skills" and I use that term as loosely as possible have been developed by 20+ years of motorbike riding. I'd only cycle a bike with disc brakes so I have a chance of stopping but even so, on a bike you're generally not going to be able to stop in time for something or someone that pulls out or steps out in front of you.

What works for me (so far) is to

(a) try to predict what is potentially going to happen such as the driver in the side road who is looking past you so hasn't seen you and is going to pull out in front of you or the pedestrian with their head in their phone and ear buds in who won't hear your bell and is possibly going to step off the path without looking. The gap in the stationary traffic you're riding up the inside of that an oncoming right hand turning car will swing across in front of you through.

(b) Think what you're going to do if the event does occurs to avoid or reduce the potential consequences. May be to slow down, shout at the pedestrian as they step off the path (they freeze), flash your helmet light in the drivers direction so they spot you (I cycle with an Exposure Joystick on my helmet, low setting), move to the outside of stationary traffic etc. Guess this is where experience comes in as this all has to be almost sub-conscious.

Even still incidents will happen. So far I've found slowing and trying to steer around the danger rather than trying to stop completely to be the better plan. In your example this would be to slow but to go up the inside or down the outside of the focus rather than going in to it or jamming brakes on so hard that you come off the bike.

PS. I find that riding with a good light on your helmet (day and night) on non flash setting really helps as drivers sometimes don't see a lower light.

I've also found (and this is only my experience\opinion) that drivers are more likely to pull out in front of me if I'm wearing dayglo or using a flashing light.
Not sure if this is just due to me reinforcing my opinion to myself (too lazy to look for the term) or if it's true. My feeling is that drivers "notice" you more but subconsciously don't register you as a threat as you're a bicycle so won't hurt them and your're wearing dayglo so obviously a responsible non-threatening citizen. Theory b is just that they register you as a bicycle so assume you're going slow so they've lots of time to pull out.
Then there's the drivers who see you and accelerate madly to get out in front of you 'cause they don't want to be "stuck" behind you !

MY road bike is on 28 mm sticky tyres and I can stop it much quicker than that in around the distance the highway code states or less. If your braking distance is many times that of a car you are not braking to the max. You are limited by geometry to a bit over half a G IIRC.

Source? (not arguing genuinely interested) 0.5g or 5m/s2 is still a lot lower than the maximum braking deceleration of a modern car which is between 8 and 10m/s2 on a dry road.

So leave a gap, even if you have a reaction time of zero you aren't going to slow down as fast as a hard braking car

rich - it was in online discussions and someone who knew the physics sums did it for me. Its because the cog is above the wheel axles so after a certain amount of deceleration the rear tyre lifts which then increases the COG thus reducing the amount you can brake - the point at which the rear tyre is just skimming the road is around half a G from memory and that is the maximum possible - a bit more if you get your weight back and low. - so less braking that a modern car but not many times less.

and that is the maximum possible

and even those who 'do it right' will probably fall far short of that. Whereas a car driver needs to only mash their foot to the floor and the computer will get them close to the

maximum braking deceleration of a modern car which is between 8 and 10m/s2 on a dry road.

Most importantly - when do people practise this, I wager never. Can only remember once having to do a hard stop on my old road bike. (Downhill in wet round a corner to a surprise roundabout.) Not living in the mountains hard braking on a road bike is few and far between. Off road, however, on fun singletrack, I'm braking to <what I think is> the limit of traction (not to a full stop) every few seconds

MY road bike is on 28 mm sticky tyres and I can stop it much quicker than that in around the distance the highway code states or less. If your braking distance is many times that of a car you are not braking to the max. You are limited by geometry to a bit over half a G IIRC. You should be able to hit this – Thats with the front tyre on the edge of adhesion under rotating by around 10% and the rear tyre just skimming the tarmac and using your weight to balance it.
Front brake must be squeezed on not grabbed – as you squeeze you get weight transfer that increases grip – so you can progressively build up the braking force.

On a flat road around 20mph, fair enough. However at 30-40mph on a 8% descent and with an 80kg rider on board?

I practice hard braking on the road - always have done. Stems from motorcycle days where hard braking was an essential skill to practice. I ride a lot in a hilly city so often braking from 30 mph ( leith street, leith walk)

trailwagger yes - physics is physics. You should be able to achieve maximum deceleration from any speed with good technique.

May i suggest simply practicing emergency stops somewhere safe until you've found  , and become familiar with , the limit of breaking force & traction for the bike your using.

You'll soon learn to  come to stop quicker whilst retainimg control

Something that no one has mentioned so far is fear factor.
I had a bad crash riding home from work and basically shattered my ankle which resulted in surgery and over 3 months off work. My first few rides were very gentle on some of the new forest tracks and it took me a further 6 months to actually ride through the junction i had the accident on. I ended up having some therapy as i was suffering from PTSD which was effecting other things in my life. This helped a lot but even now i go through that junction slowly even if I don’t else where.
It reads to me that you panicked braked due to a subconscious fear of crashing which resulted in you crashing. I have had a number of panic moments even now and it is hard to overall your instincts to just stop yourself.
In short i would look at the possibility of getting some help with coping techniques as well as prefhaps doing some gentle rides where you are not trying to get anywhere and can do it either away form cars or on quite roads.

Good suggestions here, and I'd like to add another. You need to be aware of vehicles , yes. The old adage about seeing mirrors is still true, but one thing that nobody's pointed out yet is that bad drivers are more often than not in crap cars. Audis and whatever Will have seen you, but they just don't care about you. Their view of traffic is hierarchical. It's the people who aren't interested in driving - and by extension, cars - who are the worst at it. Nobody who actually enjoys driving, who WANTS to drive, drives a Vauxhall Zafira, a Peugeot 3008 or a Hyundai i30. Wide berth, every time.

“Nobody who actually enjoys driving, who WANTS to drive, drives a Vauxhall Zafira”

I’ve got one of those! An impending third child meant when our last hot hatch died I needed something with more seats and space, my wife wanted the new car to still be fairly short to squeeze into small spaces in town and we both think off-roaders are stupid. If you’re dithering along a nice B-road and an MPV rapidly comes looming up in your mirrors do give me a wave as I overtake!

It’s the people who aren’t interested in driving – and by extension, cars – who are the worst at it.... Vauxhall Zafira, a Peugeot 3008 or a Hyundai i30. Wide berth, every time.

Never had an issue with any of those cars, ever.
Minis, yes. Vans, a fair few, but no pattern to any other make/model of car.

Hire cars are still the #1 issue round here. I think it's the combination of dawdling, sightseeing, unfamiliarity with UK roads, driving on the left and, it would appear, a manual gearbox. I wish they were all readily identifiable at a greater distance. Mostly it's currently a combination of looking for a rear window sticker and year of registration.

Never had an issue with any of those cars, ever.
Minis, yes. Vans, a fair few, but no pattern to any other make/model of car.

Fiat 500? (Abarth excluded) seem to just waft through the world oblivious to their surroundings.

A bit dated now, but the old style Nissan Micra, never seen one driven well. Always a combination of swerving, kangaroo hopping, and 15 under the limit.

Fiat 500? (Abarth excluded) seem to just waft through the world oblivious to their surroundings.

Whatever the "nail technician" d'jour car is. It used to be white Vauxhall Corsas, then it was Minis, then it was Fiat 500s, more recently its white Audi A1s. More interested in snapchat than driving

the point at which the rear tyre is just skimming the road is around half a G from memory and that is the maximum possible

I had the same discussion with a guy who was able to do the physics for me and he came out with 4.8 ish, so right in the ballpark. It too stemmed from a discussion about motorbikes - about half of which can outbrake the average car but don't because the riders can't. Although interestly the average driver of a car can't achieve the max braking either, even with ABS - they don't/can't push the brake pedal hard enough or they second guess the ABS and release the brake.

“I had the same discussion with a guy who was able to do the physics for me and he came out with 4.8 ish, so right in the ballpark.”

Presumably this depends on the height and longitudinal position of the centre of mass of the bike and rider vs the front tyre contact patch?

Presumably this depends on the height and longitudinal position of the centre of mass of the bike and rider vs the front tyre contact patch?

Surely it must.
Also I'm guessing it must be based on a rigid bike/rider combo (CoM remains fixed relative to wheels). Watch someone good deliberately get into a nose manual/stoppie to see why this is not the best model

Presumably this depends on the height and longitudinal position of the centre of mass of the bike and rider vs the front tyre contact patch?

I seem to recall from what he said that playing around with the variables didn't change it much. Bikes don't vary significantly in height/wheelbase etc. The transition to a forwards position is inevitable, if holding onto the bars, still being on the bike etc is desirable.
If you google around the motorcycle forums you'll find quite a lot of info. on how to calculate it, account for variables etc.