[Closed] Riding on Low (zero) carb diet

Thanks for this thread and the informed opinions of tomhughes, iDave etc. It has made for very fascinating reading.

I've been following a low carb "lifestyle" for two years after reading a book called "Life without Bread".This thread pretty much summarises that book.

It's heartening to see that the medical fraternity are finally waking up to the reality that we have been lied to for the last 40 or so years, by the government and by the food indsutry.

Although I suspect that sadly most of this new information will fall on deaf ears and/or be violently refuted by the food industry. Producing low nutrition, unhealthy, processed food is an easy way to feed the population and a big money spinner. Cant see the food industry and the government walking away from that without a fight.

Bit late to the thread, but amazed to find some kindred spirits, who believe (understand?) that fat is not the enemy and you don't [i]need[/i] carbs for exercise.

The original question was about riding on low/zero carbs - here's a link to an American doc and athlete who's gone low carb and the effect that it's had on his athletic performance: http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

Joe Friel, widely acknowledged as one of the top coaches in the world, now advocates low carb after switching from a typical carb-heavy athlete diet and realising improvements in both performance and recovery.

Personally, I've moved to a lower carb regime, cut processed white carbs and sugar, and learned to enjoy good fats and protein. Having said that, I'm not particularly zealous and I've not taken it as far as some others. I'm still happy to have stuff like muesli, basmati rice, some wholemeal pasta and the odd slice of wholemeal toast. I tend to work on the 80/20 rule - be good 80% of the time and the combined benefits outweigh the odd lapse. The other thing is, the longer it goes on, the easier it seems to get.

From an athletic perspective, since changing my diet, I'm about 8kg lighter (and I was hardly a heavyweight to begin with) and my power ratios are up ~20% on last season. How much is to do with increased training and how much to diet is up for debate, but the two are intertwined - diet is an enabler for my training load.

I now tend to do most of my training in a fasted state and can happily ride for 3-4 hours without too much issue. For longer rides, I tend to top up with bars and a carb drink. Would I be happy racing fasted (as others have mentioned)? I don't think I'm ready to take that step...

A couple of questions for those on the thread more qualified than myself:
1. Is pushing out the amount of time I can ride without eating just a case of training, or is there a natural limit?
2. How do you balance increased training intensity with carb intake? From my reading, even the most efficient athletes have an RQ of 0.85 - one would assume small amounts of carb intake for higher intensity efforts.
3. From a purely hypothetical perspective, because I'm unlikely to ever do it, how are glycogen stores replenished with no carbs? Gluconeogenesis? How long does that typically take?

[i]Its fantastic for frying, butter burns after a while, EV OL (as with most other oils) is sucked into the food. Coconut oil just sits there, you only need a tiny amount and it sticks around, the food doesn't burn. However as I said it does flavour the food somewhat!

[/i]

Tom.
When frying, I will add cider vinegar, black pepper, salt and red wine.
I wonder if that may help offset the flavour of the coconut oil ?.
Just a thought.

[i]I tend to work on the 80/20 rule - be good 80% of the time and the combined benefits outweigh the odd lapse. The other thing is, the longer it goes on, the easier it seems to get.
[/i]

Dude !, thats like the iDave diet.
6 days adherent, one day [i]off[/i] as in eat whatever you want.

[i]3. From a purely hypothetical perspective, because I'm unlikely to ever do it, how are glycogen stores replenished with no carbs? Gluconeogenesis? How long does that typically take?[/i]

Good Q. I'm thinking that Gluconeogenesis may only occur under extreme conditions.
But I also understand that the body will use alternate sources to manufacture carbs.
So, while a person may choose not to ingest any or very few carbs.
Your body may well have the final say.

not tried it solo, but the coconut oil is sooo powerful.

That said, after using it for a week or so you kind of get used to the taste. Its always there but nowhere near as strong as when you first use it. Also because of the way it is not absorbed into the food you can sort of drain it off which removes most of the taste.

Since eating a higher protein/lower, more complex carb diet I've had less trouble with ectopic beats.

This is an interesting thread.

I'm coeliac and also have Crohns, although it is in remission at the moment. I did the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) and it worked really well for me. I don't follow it to the letter now - I include some white rice, potatoes and sweet potatoes in my diet, but I generally try and limit my grain consumption.

I go back to the SCD if I have any signs of a flare up of digestive symptoms and also take Intestaid IB which is brilliant for irritable bowel type symptoms.

There is some evidence to suggest that people with digestive issues do not digest grains as well as others, hence why there is some relief to be had from diets like the SCD or Paleolithic diet.

Tom.

Although my first encounter with coconut oil didn't go well.
You're making me want to try it again.
🙂

I will admit that the first time it wasn't for frying.
So maybe I'll have better luck using it as a frying oil.

[i]There is some evidence to suggest that people with digestive issues do not digest grains as well as others, hence why there is some relief to be had from diets like the SCD or Paleolithic diet.[/i]

Yeap. I'm now utterly convinced that I wasn't designed to get the best from, Thrive !, on a grain rich diet.

A work colleague now has Chrohns.
He said it developed after eating a dodgy yoghurt / health thingy.
Scared the crap out of me though.
Reckons he was as fit as a butchers dog before it occured.
Pity really, I do worry for him.
He hasn't needed surgery yet.
I hope he won't.

Solo, couple of quick questions for you mate.

is the only differance between the idiet and the primal plan, the non eating of fruit and the day off?

i am not really having much of a day off, my treats on my supposed day off have been a few (4 ) roast spuds and a small bar of 80% chocolate.
i feel that if i have a full blown day off, all my good work will be wasted.
on the primal plan, there is no day off is there?

[i]Dude !, thats like the iDave diet.
6 days adherent, one day off as in eat whatever you want.[/i]

Yeah, except I can't do the adherence for 6 days in a row!

The concept of 80/20 actually came from an interview I read with Greg Parham when I was first reading up on low carb and mountain bike racing: http://www.livingpaleo.com/guest/Greg-Parham-Talks-About-The-Paleo-Diet-For-Performance.html - well worth a read.

[i]is the only differance between the idiet and the primal plan, the non eating of fruit and the day off?[/i]

Thats a good call, I'd go with that, unless I've missed something.

[i]i am not really having much of a day off, my treats on my supposed day off have been a few (4 ) roast spuds and a small bar of 80% chocolate.
i feel that if i have a full blown day off, all my good work will be wasted.
on the primal plan, there is no day off is there?

[/i]

For now, I would suggest sticking to the iDave diet, which relies on the day off.
iDave would explain it better, but on the iDave diet, the day off [b]IS[/b] part of the diet.
Its a fundamental component and you should adhere to it, [b]imo[/b]

However. You, like me, are on a mission to lose weight.
But !. What do we do when we reach a body weight we're happy with ?.

Previously, on the iDave diet, we've been [i]trimming down[/i].
And once you reach 12-15 percent body fat, IIRC iDave says you'll plateau.
So then you just continue to eat your iDave diet, low GI meals, and stick with your days off.
Because the iDave diet isn't a temporary adjustment to your diet.
Its a permanent change to what you eat.

With the Primal Blueprint, you're observing a different approach.
I think that most of the Primal Blue Print probably applies, [b]Once[/b] you have reached a sensible body weight / body fat percentage.

So, if I were you, continue with the iDave diet in order to trim-down and lose weight.
Then, once you get to your target.
Then, selectively, introduce some Primal elements into your daily life.
Remember. Going Primal isn't just about diet, its about your lifestyle.
how you sleep, how you exercise, how you eat, how you play, how you move.

🙂

Solo, I developed Crohns after getting a parasite infection whilst travelling. Had been fit and healthy before that. Only explanation they could come up with is that the infection triggered off some sort of immune reaction and it went into overdrive, ended up with coeliac disease as well. Was told for years I just had IBS.

I've not had any surgery either - hope your mate won't have to.

I don't think that carbs are evil or anything but when I think of what my diet used to be like it's a bit scary. I wouldn't go as far as the Paleo theory that we're not designed to eat them but I don't think we were designed to eat the kind of junk food that gets pushed at us now full of additives and bulking agents and gums and allsorts. The grains we eat now are not what our grandparents would have eaten.

Bomba.

Thanks for the links.
😉

is the only differance between the idiet and the primal plan, the non eating of fruit and the day off?

Thats a good call, I'd go with that, unless I've missed something.

There is certainly a lot of overlap between PB and iDave but also in some ways they take completely opposite approaches (especially when it comes to exercise).

Tom my mail is hall-s at sky dot com drop me a message about a ride in the Peak.

will do!
The same goes for anyone from the Leciester area who wants to take me to cannock or somewhere else good!

[i]I don't think that carbs are evil or anything but when I think of what my diet used to be like it's a bit scary. I wouldn't go as far as the Paleo theory that we're not designed to eat them but I don't think we were designed to eat the kind of junk food that gets pushed at us now full of additives and bulking agents and gums and allsorts. The grains we eat now are not what our grandparents would have eaten. [/i]

LMP.
Firstly, I'm sorry to learn that you have / are suffering coeliac disease and Chrohns.

I agree, carbs aren't evil, but it would seem that people are consuming too many an gaining weight.
[b]Paleolithic woman/man had some carbs in their diet.[/b]
Esp, as iDave points out, during that one month a year when they happened to discover a tree or bush laden with fruit.

Our paleolithic ancestors had a sweet tooth too, and would gorge themselves on a sweeter fruit, from a well laden tree or bush, should they have found one.

BUT !, that would be eating in season, for a short period of time.
Not like today when you can buy fruit in Tesco in December...

I agree with you.
For me, Grains are out.
Its perhaps too much to go into here, but there are so many facets to the story of how grains became so entrenched into our diets.

i am using the primal plan for a lot of my menus/recipes now.
i am not eating too many beans to be honest, they are the only part of the idiet i cant get on with.
but i am not doing a lot of exercise, so maybe i am lucky i dont need to many carbs.

Is someone able to answer how glycogen stores are replenished on a low carb diet?
Is it merely a matter of our metabolism converting other nutrients into the required carbs?

Also, is lactose free milk or soya milk acceptable (in tea for example)on the iDave?

I was kindly sent a link to info on the iDave diet and im very keen to give it a go. Is there any more web based info on the science behind the diet and how the 'fill your boots' day affects the outcome?

and im prepared to be shot down here, but do Heinz baked beans count as a legume/valid bean?.. far too much sugar I presume?

If no good, how about the diabetic version?

Didn't the average caveman die in their early 20's so isn't all this comparison to their diet a bit bollox?

And Nick asked me a question back some pages, to be fair, I'm not seeing any particular weight loss with my training program, but then again my aim is not to loose weight but to get faster which is how I'm measuring progress, and I don't have much weight to loose (maybe a couple of beer pounds...)

[i]think you have - the primal blueprint is high protein and low carb. Mark advises you to avoid legumes in particular, whereas iDave advises you to eat a lot of legumes to get your (slow) carbs.[/i]

With respect, iDave diet advocates the consumption of lean meat while consuming lower GI foods.
So I see quite a lot of similarity between the two.

As Ton points out, if anything, the glaring difference between MDA and the iDave diet is fruit.

Mark allows a fair degree of [i]lee way[/i] in his food choices
As would be consistent with the hunter gatherer that paleolithic man was.

But I can't forget Dr Lustig's presentation wrt to Fructose, the fruit sugar.

[i]i am using the primal plan for a lot of my menus/recipes now.[/i]

Theres no ignoring the fact that the MDA site has a lot of recipe suggestions there.
A topic that has generated threads on STW, with people asking about iDave diet compliant recipes.
I'd suggest selecting the more iDave diet compliant reciepes, from those listed on MDA.

[i]i am not eating too many beans to be honest, they are the only part of the idiet i cant get on with.
[/i]

I'm the same. I just couldn't do the beans.
But I found a useful tip on MDA...
" [i][b]Lots of plants and animals[/b][/i] "

That one line ^^^ complies with the iDave diet and MDA.
[b] WIN ?[/b]

[i]but i am not doing a lot of exercise, so maybe i am lucky i dont need to many carbs[/i]

Its just my own mission, but I have sought to find a way to control my body weight, without relying on exercise to trim-off those excess pounds of lard.
Don't get me wrong, I like to cycle.
But I ride, for the ride.
Not to lose an inch off the midrift.

FWIW, Ton, I think you're doing a great job.
It will be trial and error, perhaps, for a while.
But iDave will no doubt help out when he can.

Keep up the good work.

Is someone able to answer how glycogen stores are replenished on a low carb diet?
Is it merely a matter of our metabolism converting other nutrients into the required carbs?

I won't pretend that I understand the chemistry but :

The body can convert glycerol to glucose but it prefers to use amino acids for gluconeogenesis.

"Oxidation of fatty acids yields enormous amounts of energy on a molar basis, however, the carbons of the fatty acids cannot be utilized for net synthesis of glucose. The two carbon unit of acetyl-CoA derived from b-oxidation of fatty acids can be incorporated into the TCA cycle, however, during the TCA cycle two carbons are lost as CO2. Thus, explaining why fatty acids do not undergo net conversion to carbohydrate.

The glycerol backbone of lipids can be used for gluconeogenesis. This requires phosphorylation to glycerol-3-phosphate by glycerol kinase and dehydrogenation to dihydroxyacetone phosphate (DHAP) by glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase(G3PDH). The G3PDH reaction is the same as that used in the transport of cytosolic reducing equivalents into the mitochondrion for use in oxidative phosphorylation. This transport pathway is called the glycerol-phosphate shuttle. The glycerol backbone of adipose tissue stored triacylgycerols is ensured of being used as a gluconeogenic substrate since adipose cells lack glycerol kinase. In fact adipocytes require a basal level of glycolysis in order to provide them with DHAP as an intermediate in the synthesis of triacyglycerols."

http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...eogenesis.html
http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/glycogen.php

Yes basically, your body can synthesise fat from carbs & synthesise glycogen from fat (and protein?) I think is how it goes, I am definitely not a biochemist, perhaps one will pop up and explain it in simple terms - I don't think it can be explained in simple terms though.

Totally inspired by some of the ideas offered on this thread.
I think im set on my way to a much lower carb life, and my choice of cooking oils is now set.
I'm seeing carbs now as a suppliment to an active lifestyle, used wisely for recovery.

And frankly, iDave seems the answer to my prayers. 1 day of whatever I want to eat? Splendid.

SJ78.

Good luck.

I've enjoyed you're thread.

Thanks to iDave, Tom, IBL, et al.
😀

DT78 - Member
Didn't the average caveman die in their early 20's so isn't all this comparison to their diet a bit bollox?

Posted 13 hours ago #

They also lived in caves or outside and had various forms of predators after them a lot of the time. We don't really have this nowadays, unless you live in Liverpool of course.
They also didn't have access to the medical care that we (mostly) enjoy.

Solo - Member
Also, I've taken to frying in butter after learning that heating EVO to high, destroys its omega 3 content.

Seeing as I do not measure or monitor the temperature of the oil I'm frying with.

I've just switched over to butter.

I tried coconut oil once, and had a mild reaction.
So looks like I can't use coconut oil.

Regarding butter, not sure if it's been covered or not and i'm not reading back, but you want to go for proper grassfed butter, something like Kerrygold. To make it even better again, clarify it to get rid of the dairy elements an dyou are left with the most amazing tasting, golden nectar of pure fat.

I think if the average cavemen made it into adulthood, then they stood a fair chance of living to old age. Like any era until medical science actually started to have a big effect, the infant mortality rates massively skewed the average life expectancy figures.

I kinda ignored the caveman mortality comment.

I didn't and don't want this thread [i]over heating[/i]...
😉

For me, this has been a great thread, thanks to iDave, Tom and IBL as well as others.

For the record, when people first encounter the principals of the paleolithic diet in whatever form its been presented to them.
They often, rightly, raise this question.

[i]" If cavemen were so healthy on their diet, how come they never reached 30yrs of age ? "[/i]

My, lazy answer is that, lots of people follow a paleo style diet today and they seem happy enough.

I see similarities between the iDave diet and a diet set along paleo diet lines and I guess theres no harm in experimenting.

😀

Staralfur.

Thanks for that.

At the moment I'm happy frying with the butter.
But I note that clarified butter / ghee, is more widely used in asian cooking.

So, are they onto something ?.

Tom has made me think hard about giving coconut oil another go.

Began to read 'The Diet Delusion' last night as advocated by Tom. Three chapters in and I am amazed at the revalations on the validity of the low fat recommendations.

This book may be a life changer, seek it out.

i eat nothing but eggs, tuna and eccles cakes. i blame iJamie.

As Ton points out, if anything, the glaring difference between MDA and the iDave diet is fruit.

The only thing to add to that is MDA advises on low GI fruit, i.e. mainly berries because these also carry a lot of antioxidants. They also recommend certain fruits over others and eating them whole to get the fibre too, not just fruit juice which is pure sugar.

Liking this thread!

Great thread, loving it. Please can I come on the dietary discussion ride? No qualifications apart from love of butter, cooking and default food intake being low gi, low on processed food and simple carbs. Find that cycling makes me desire and use more simple carbs (tangfastic haribo, cake anyone?) than I have ever before which is slightly doing my whole food 'no junk here please' head in. I am not worried about my bmi or anything, and I am as good as I should be for the amount of riding I do, just interested in the insulin cycle and what's happening.

Clover.

Hi. So what are you wanting ?.
🙂

. Find that cycling makes me desire and use more simple carbs (tangfastic haribo, cake anyone?)

But I note that clarified butter / ghee, is more widely used in asian cooking.

So, are they onto something ?.

The main reason for clarifying butter is to raise the temp at which it burns, so better for frying with.

In your research for oils/butter for cooking with have you looked into cocoa butter for frying? How does this fit in? It's 100% natural, full of fat...

DGOAB - could that be to do with salt cravings?

[i]. Find that cycling makes me desire and use more simple carbs (tangfastic haribo, cake anyone?)
I'm finding similar atm too - except after a race, all i want is crisps. I hate crisps and never touched them until recently (it must have been at least 5 years if not more since i last had crisps) yet can put away a huge bag in seconds after a race![/i]

I see two things here.

Hunger after exercise.
Food choices.

As discussed earlier in this thread.
You can go ride a bike straight after getting up in the morning.
Without needing to stuff sugary things down your neck before setting out.
If your ride is beyond a certain distance / intensity, then perhaps during the ride, you may need to take on some carbs.

However, its also been mentioned that consuming some carbs after your ride, will help your body / muscles, recover from your activity, sooner.

As you might expect.
There will likely be an optimum amount of carbs to consume after exercise, to recover sooner.
This will vary from person to person, I'm thinking, for a few reasons.

BUT, if you're like me and you just bimble along for a 2 hour ride.
Theres probably no need to consume any carbs, after that ride.

Also, I'd guess that a lot of folk probably consume more carbs than they need for recovery purposes.
But who doesn't like a post ride pastry or pint, right ?.
😀
So theres your carb consumption during or after a ride, whatever.
But bare in mind we're trying to lose weight here.
😉

The other part is food choices when we're hungry.
I'm fascinated by the way certain hormones will influence what we seek out to eat, when we're hungry.

On an empty stomach, the hormone Ghrelin will be produced.
My reading has sometimes referred to Ghrelin as the " hunger hormone ".
As far as I've read, Ghrelin has been observed to significantly influence a persons food choice on an empty stomach.

This might explain DGoAB's experience ????.

Knowledge, solo, knowledge.... Really interested in the statement about insulin blocking the use of energy stores. I used not to be able to eat sugars, cake or white bread - they made me feel sick or drunk, particularly if hungry - but I have taken to eating the most astonishing food (for me) eg the morning after my first 140km bike ride for breakfast I had cereal then, still hungry, hard boiled egg, two honey waffles, a slice of pizza, little cubes of aged gouda, mini cherry tomatoes and, er, a chocolate Danish - ie virtually everything the Belgian garage had on offer). This is not the quinoa salad of my dreams... But then we did the Koppenberg and a few other climbs over 75km and I was fine. What has cycling done to me?

Solo, i'm talking about racing - hard as i possibly can/faster than i thought i could etc. My normal diet is healthy and works for me. Post normal exercise, i'd carry on with that. But anything i pack to eat post race is the last thing i want and i find myself craving things like crisps, or a steak (i don't eat meat!). After sunday's race (a PB of 21mph) after the crisps were gone, all i wanted was green leafy veg!

Clover -

Really interested in the statement about insulin blocking the use of energy stores

Dgoab I think it's partly the salt in crisps. They get me like that (although I do like them anyway, but much more so in presence of bike) plus when cycling I find myself adding salt to food when I used never to put it on anything.

Dgoab it is halfway down page 3 - tomhughes posting. That's before the 'best fats' guide (pages 4-5) and the ''diet and arrhythmias and epilepsy' discussion page 6 moving onto lifespan of caveman and woman...

[i]virtually everything the Belgian garage had on offer[/i]
😆

Paints an amusing picture.
Reminds me of when Chipps described having the bonk and recalled riding straight into the cafe tent at an event, in a quest for FOOD, all the food he could get for £5.
Which he then proceeded to fall asleeep infront of.
Made me laugh for days afterwards, imagining that scene.
😆

From you post, looks like you're already on the Low GI food thing.
So if your weight is good, you are active and have enough energy for the exercise you choose.
Then you sound as if you're already sorted.
🙂

DGOAB.
I'm learning too.
The real knowledge is with iDave, Tom and IBL, by the looks of it ^^^
But I have come to think Ghrelin has a part to play in when we eat and what we choose.
😉

[i]Really interested in the statement about insulin blocking the use of energy stores[/i]

Right, be gentle with me, I am stretching what I think I [i]know[/i].

Reading the other night about adipose tissue (body fat).
Apparently it has [i]receptors[/i] which by the sounds of things are like the locks on our body fat.
IIRC receptors are a2 and b2.
I think that when insulin is released into the blood stream, it suppresses the body's ability to access its stored fat using these receptor.
So, if you're having an insulin spike, then you can't burn any body fat.
I also believe that when insulin is at a very, very low level in the blood.
Then the process to unlock your body fat can engage.

Hence why, if you take that early morning hop on an empty stomach.
Your body will just continue to access your stored fat.
Eat something sugary and the situation changes and the glucose thats now in your blood should be used for energy.

As I said. Be gentle.
🙂