[Closed] Riding on Low (zero) carb diet

Which one? Don't take any notice of me, I'm great at programming CNC machine but know bugger all about food. Just what the *experts tell me*

The hero one, I do admit though I was being an arse.

[i]Now all I need to do I convince my 15 year old that sugar is bad and the wife who is trained by the NHS to get people thin. Might be harder work than converting me. [/i]

And thats probably the sadest thing about it.
For years, decades, people have believed and trusted the advise.
Now, its seems, that somehow, somewhere.
It all went wrong.

Still, no use wringing your hands about yesterday.
Better to get busy with the course change.
So long as this time... diet suggestions can be backed up by [b]good[/b] science.
😉

Finally !, a diet / nutrition thread on STW of use and which has calm, informative debate... Who'd have ever thought it

Ok you will have to wait a bit longer to get hero status.

Iirc avocado oil is ok to use for cooking due to it not degrading at high temps as well.

You could always try GT85 for frying it's not much use for anything else...

diet suggestions can be backed up by good science

I've been drinking milk for nearly 30 years and I ain't dead yet. 😉

I was going to go out for a quick ride, but I started reading this thread and now it's too late.

Off for some beans now.

right, off out on the bike for a while. Do doubt I'll be back here later. Oh and Phil milk is great for you, just try to make it full fat or jersey gold top.

I didn't refresh before posting 😳

No, not milk.

But a trip into the sunny country side in my convertible.
To a little pub, where in the company of the World's most beautiful woman.
I had Venison, with caramelised onion gravy, mushrooms, salad and pea, broad bean and spinach Fricassse.

Washed down with a large glass of Shiraz.

And to think some mug has just had bread, jam and peanut butter.
Must be hell... Being an exercsie addict
😉

Lovin this red meat, good fats, low sugar, eating.

8)

I see a few Qs on Oils.

It may be useful to some to read what Mark has to say on Oils.

[url] http://www.marksdailyapple.com/healthy-oils/ [/url]

Oh and Phil milk is great for you, just try to make it full fat or jersey gold top.

sshhh, you'll set Solo off. 🙂

, where in the company of the World's most beautiful woman

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Mainly to Tom -Another consideration which goes hand in hand with the other stuff I mentioned would be longer term outcomes of low carbs diets.

For individuals with epilepsy (a big part of my work) low carb diets have proved to be beneficial in seizure reduction for medication resistant epilepsies. I have even seen people become seizure free.

However, studies suggest adverse effects on blood lipid levels and an increase in cardiac arrhythmias, and I know individuals who have had to end the diet and accept higher seizure frequencies.

Maybe something else to add to your reading list.

FWIW.

I now fry in butter.

KerryGold is grass fed, which is supposed to be a good thing as opposed to butter from grain fed cows, yadda.

I have found Yeo Valley claim that their butter is grass fed and organic.

I see a few Qs on Oils.

It may be useful to some to read what Mark has to say on Oils.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/healthy-oils/

Well it only took 2 years+ for someone to come along and back up what I've been bleating on about and getting grief over. cheers tom, I owe you a beetroot juice.

re' oils I use flaxseed, rapeseed and extra virgin olive oil. and finishline on my chains.

[i]Interesting reading - but he doesn't mention cold-pressed rapeseed oil (only talks about the processed stuff which he calls "canola oil"). Perhaps it doesn't exist in his part of the world? Surely it is one of the "good oils" though? [/i]

Fair point.

But we might ask what we'd get from unrefined rapeseed oil, and whether we need it or whether such nutrients might not be available from another source.

Things that interested me, was how heating Olive during cooking may degrade it, from a nutritional perspective.

I've done a bit of reading on that site and seems the omega 3s aren't particularly robust.

Hence my switch to Frying with butter.

But I still knock up salad dressings using olive oil.

I just thought that as Tom, iDave, etc are busy.
That I'd offer up some info on Oils.
I can only hope it helps.
🙂

[i]Well it only took 2 years+ for someone to come along and back up what I've been bleating on about and getting grief over. cheers tom, I owe you a beetroot juice.[/i]

Aye !. I've been watching this for around 18-24 months.
You've done well to stay the course.

Things that interested me, was how heating Olive during cooking may degrade it, from a nutritional perspective.

When I was a chef one of the restaurants I worked for had some studies done on oils and what happened to them at high temps.

From the results we ended up using pomace oil for cooking, though it's extracted using solvents so you may choose to avoid it.

So that olive oil your using is no better than most other chemical refined oils.

To be honest I cook with EV from Lidl - it's not expensive there, though I do wonder on the provenance being as it is about half the price... make syou use a little less when you know how much it costs, but maybe I should be pouring it on 🙂

Regular olive oil is refined from all the crap that has been pressed for all its good oil. It is chemically refined and the result is.....Lamp oil!
This has high levels of certain toxins that are known to be toxic to humans and animals.
To make it fit for human consumption it has a small amount of extra virgin added to it to water down the toxic acids, from IIRC 6% (above which is toxic apparently) to 5% which makes all the difference apparently.

Any source on that? As that sounds like pomace, what they make soap and the like out of. The olive equivalent of mechanically reclaimed meat <shiver>.
AFAIK 'olive oil' sold for consumption was just virgin olive oil mechanically filtered after pressing to make it last longer by not having bits presumably rotting in it(but loses some taste in the process.. so OK to cook with, not so good for dressings).

But we might ask what we'd get from unrefined rapeseed oil, and whether we need it or whether such nutrients might not be available from another source.

Well it only took 2 years+ for someone to come along and back up what I've been bleating on about and getting grief over. cheers tom, I owe you a beetroot juice.

Whilst I find much of what you say compelling and it makes good sense to me, I am sure that the agreement of one small voice in the scientific wilderness does not show absolute proof.

Just as with issues such as global warming there will always be individuals on either side of the fence.

What's needed to give these theories credibility is lots of study not evangelical adherence, as I'm sure you will be the first to admit.

It would be such a shame if this type of eating plan was globally accepted and long term implications then became apparent, very much like seems to have occurred with the low fat phenomena.

ah, the do nothing till its proven approach

procrastinate tomorrow.

ah, the do nothing till its proven approach

Not really.

I just thought science was supposed to be based on,,,y'know, science and stuff.

Otherwise you could just have a diet of mars bars and coke cos god said it would keep you fit and healthy.

@dangerous beans - I think you'll find god handed out milk and honey.

Well out of all the available "general purpose" cooking oils it seems to me to be one of the best - high in omega 3, high smokepoint, fairly neutral flavour, not outrageously expensive.

That's why I use it, however I was skim reading a section last night on Fat Types in Phil Maffetone's "The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing", which suggested that although it's high in omega 3 it's not the right type of omega 3, short-chain rather than long-chain I think. The body can then convert it to the good type but it's not very good at it, so you don't actually end up with much of the good stuff.
Or something like that - I wasn't really concentrating 🙂
Interesting book though.

A quick google supports this ^^^. **** me, this is getting complicated. 😆

So whilst short-chain o3 [i]is[/i] an essential nutrient, long-chain is better for your heart [b]and[/b] you need to bear in mind that you want a large o3:o6 ratio. Which means, I guess, that cold-pressed rapeseed oil, whilst not being unhealthy, is not the healthiest either? So does coconut oil win then, with its long-chain o3 and zero o6?

However, studies suggest adverse effects on blood lipid levels and an increase in cardiac arrhythmias, and I know individuals who have had to end the diet and accept higher seizure frequencies.

Dangerousbeans - interesting comment on the arrhythmias,

I used to get a few extra (ectopic) beats after running hard when slowing down - actually feels more like a missed beat because the heart pumps when the chamber has no blood in it. Looked it up and it seemed relatively common.

Since being on a low carb diet, I am getting a lot, lot more, often when not even exercising, so I'll definitely look into this! If you have any links I'd be interested.

[i]you need to bear in mind that you want a large o3:o6 ratio[/i]

I've been under the impression that we ought to aim for as low a ratio of o3 to o6 as is practicable.

In a perfect world we'd have a ratio of 1:1, but thats probably impossible.

To my limited understanding (happy to be enlightened) o6 is a pro-inflammatory ESA.
So, whilst we need to possess this attribute, to a certain extent.
If we are too inflammed ( Too much o6 in our diet ), this may manifest itself as athlerosclerosis.
resulting in the accumilation of plaque in arterys ???.

So, I was thinking that o3 balances out o6, to keep our inflammatory response in check.

Tom would probably know this one, I'm guessing.

I've been under the impression that we ought to aim for as low a ratio of o3 to o6 as is practicable.

In a perfect world we'd have a ratio of 1:1, but thats probably impossible.

Also, I've taken to frying in butter after learning that heating EVO to high, destroys its omega 3 content.

Seeing as I do not measure or monitor the temperature of the oil I'm frying with.

I've just switched over to butter.

I tried coconut oil once, and had a mild reaction.
So looks like I can't use coconut oil.

[i]Yes, you are quite correct, as further googling since my post has revealed. I am still confused as to what this all means though, regarding which oil is best to use for cooking! [/i]

Might you be able to just use oil cold, for dressings and the like and fry in butter ?.

So is it agreed that coconut milk is fine, in fact its even better than fine its positivity brimming with healthy goodness, and I am safe to live on thai curry for the rest of my life, as long as I find a suitable replacement for the rice element of the meal?

I've just started to use rice bran oil for most of my cooking, seems to tick many of the "healthy oil" boxes, although like most oils this probably depends on the method of extraction and the amount of processing

Now I've just read that paragraph on MDA regarding coconut milk.
Mark seems not to be too worried about Guar Gum as an additive to processed coconut milk.

Yet I have read that guar gum causes micrscopic lisions in the intestine, which over a prolonged period of time.
Can cause, issues.
❓

Personally, I avoid Guar Gum and Xantham gum.

Mudmuncher - Best et al is the one we always reference, its called something like ' cardiac complications for pediatric case' - not at work now so not got it to hand.

Must state - this is talking about long term near zero carbs although I suppose there is a likelihood that if you are succeptible then you may experience it sooner.

Don't get me wrong, it works really well for some people, just seems to cause problems after a significant timescale.

I used to be a bodybuilder and used to go high protein/zero carb and get some weird beat rhythms so know what you mean.

Might you be able to just use oil cold, for dressings and the like and fry in butter ?.

So is it agreed that coconut milk is fine

I've just started to use rice bran oil for most of my cooking

Very interesting discussion, agree with all that Tom has said, been reading around this area for some years now after suffering IBS symptoms.

On a side note, as apart of my journey reading about IBS came across 'SCD diet' google if want to more more but basic premise is that a lot of intestinal problems may be down to increase in are gut flora (bacterial) due to many carbs that we don't digest well (bacteria feed of them). I know for myself that limiting carbs makes me feel a whole lot better.

So limiting carbs (only taking at the correct time post exercise) may not only help improve performance but help your gut, and not just to stay smaller.

Some other stuff here

http://www.medlink.com/medlinkcontent.asp

And found Best (although only the abstract)

http://www.neurology.org/content/54/12/2328.short

Thanks Dangerousbeans! I've found quite a lot on this already along with various ancedotes from people who started having arrthymias/palpitations on a LC diet that went away when they started taking more carbs. Food for thought!

ah I see the topic has focused squarely on oils since I've been gone.

coconut oil is the best, BUT you have to really like the coconut taste. I can tolerate it but don't love it.

Its fantastic for frying, butter burns after a while, EV OL (as with most other oils) is sucked into the food. Coconut oil just sits there, you only need a tiny amount and it sticks around, the food doesn't burn. However as I said it does flavour the food somewhat!

Well that was a nice ride in the sun, better take advantage while it lasts!

Anyone fancy doing a summary of pertinent info from this thread?

"What's needed to give these theories credibility is lots of study not evangelical adherence, as I'm sure you will be the first to admit."

Taube's "The diet Delusion", "Good Fats Bad Fats" in the US, is very heavily referenced. It's also a pretty good (but lengthy) summary of this thread. Plenty other science writers out there writing on the subject of oils , carbs, soya, high fructose corn syrups, eg. Felicity Lawrence, Zoe Harcombe. There's nothing in it for the food industry and big pharma.

I'm interested to hear that Tom as a cardiologist is onto the subject, I've been wondering when our cardiology colleagues would start thinking about these theories as it's pretty pertinent to their work, it'll throw the diabetologists too. Whether it's wrong or right it's obvious looking at the population (and not the exercising STW population) that there's trouble at 't Mill, lots of fat & unhealthy individuals.

My "opinion" is that the truth may lie in the middle, exercising youngsters are not the same population as the older exercising adults or the sedentary population. Having said that, opinion is worthless in my book, science counts. 🙂

My take on this is that although the science and the minutiae of diet is important and valuable, we seem to be at a stage where the relationship people have with food is so distorted that obesity is inevitable for a large part of the population.

I work alongside people who 'diet', they eat weigh****cher meals, they eat salad, then they eat bloody biscuits and chocolates as a 'treat'.

I despair of pointing out the essential and obvious problem; it's far less what they eat than how bloody much of it they consume without even thinking, and then a new magazine appears and a new diet fad follows.