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The main issue is though that if I tell joe bloggs to eat fat he WILL get fat, he WILL probably get heart disease. But thats not the fat to blame its his carbs. If he cut the carbs and ate the fat he'd be fine. This advice is dangerous in the wrong hands. Which is why I am annoyed at myself for being so open on a public forum, at the end of the day my comments may do more harm than good, which is deeply upsetting.
On a break and thought I'd call in to see where this was going and I am still confused.
Are we saying that all research against high fat/high protein/low carb diets is flawed, or worse, falsified, because that seems to be where this is going?
crikey you are correct.
But as the danes (who have eliminated trans fat/vegetable oils/marg from their diet by law) have proven it is possible.
But what we need to do is start the protest by not buying the crap they are selling. They need to be forced to change their ways by the only method they know, drops in sales.
So avoid all processed food that contains vegetable oil and inverted fructose syrups. Even high quality foods contain these now, because they are so much cheaper than butter/real fat and sugar.
Where has that come from?
The research into Low fat diets is seriously flawed.
There is little research on high fat diets, but even so the evidence would be worthless as there are too many factors to implicate the cause.
Therefore the current research direction is looking at the specific hormonal and biochemical effects, only with this basic knowledge can we hope to understand whats going on.
Interesting indeed.
From a personal point of view, I've been through old fashioned cycling nutrition, going out with water, and a kit kat for emergency use, when my weight was low and stable, through using gels and recovery shakes, when my weight went up, and am now back to a minimal supplement routine and am getting thinner by the week.
I still dream of crumpets though.
Tom does that mean I can drop the flora and get the Lurpak back out 😉
Now all I need to do I convince my 15 year old that sugar is bad and the wife who is trained by the NHS to get people thin. Might be harder work than converting me.
The research into Low fat diets is seriously flawed
In what way? Not being a pain, I really don't know.
Regarding the high fat/low carb diet my mum is diabetic and uses it quite rigourously. As a concerned son I occasionally have a look around the web for stuff just to make sure she's ok. As an example I came accross [i]Harte et al Post-prandial high fat intake leads to acute exposure to circulating endotoxin in type 2 diabetes mellitus subjects[/i]
If she's wrong then I will be more than happy as I'm likely to have my mum about a bit longer.
Yes legspin please do. Get rid of the flora it is literally killing you.
Go though your cupboards people, get rid of any vegetable oil containing products (you will be suprised) any inverted syrups.
All fats that are not part of the following list
Ex Virgin Olive oil
Cold pressed rapeseed,grapeseed etc. (all ok as long as cold pressed)
Butter
Coconut oil
Palm oil
Use butter,coconut oil, palm oil for frying.
These saturated fats are very stable at high temperatures so do not chemically change like other oils high in poly/mono unsaturated fats do.
Yes this is going to cost you. but the money you spend now will be paid back to you with interest in lack of prescription charges (for all those meds you're going to need in the future) not to mention your good health for decades to come.
Eat whole foods, grow your own or eat organic if you can. Don't be short-sighted with this.
dangerousbeans, can I get back to you on that. I am trying to keep up with all the current research, but its hard with a 60 hour a week plus job. (by the way for those of you wondering I am on a day off at the moment!)
tomhughes - thanks for your input, it's been interesting reading. 🙂
Can I just ask about coconut milk? Is it any good or just another fad?
I tend to roast vegetables ie carrots, butternut squash, parsnips etc so which is the best oil for this?
No worries.
I'd rather you be working on it than spending time on here.
I accept that what we know may well be wrong and that we should be doing something completely different but worry that, in a few more years, we'll be told something entirely different again.
Thanks
No coconut milk is not a fad in my opinion. It contains lost of medium change triglycerides (MCTs)
These beautiful little molecules are fats that can almost act like carbs and can be used as a relatively rapid energy source. I use them in my training drinks, they are like rocket fuel.
The only opposition to coconut milk is how they are packaged. They do not like being in tins and can cause leeching of the compounds in tins into the milk (this goes for most tins liquids but seems to be worse in coconut milk for some reason)
So if you can get it is cartons and enjoy!
But as the danes (who have eliminated trans fat/vegetable oils/marg from their diet by law) have proven it is possible.
Yes legspin please do. Get rid of the flora it is literally killing you.
Not sure if this is relavent, but Margerine (as a tub of emulsified hydrogenated veg oil) hasn't existed for quite a long time, look at the ingredients.
And the Danes banned Marmite under the same legislation, so please can we not follow their lead!
dangerousbeans - yes that is always the worry in the back of my mind that we may be wrong, but this research has been around for almost half a century but has been ignored. Due to the 'lipid hypothesis' the american government, the american heart foundation and the food companies involved any scientists who countinued this research were not only sacked but also black balled, unbelievable but true. So it has remained a bit of an underground movement till now.
For those who are discussing carbs after exercise, one important reason to have some immediately after is to help reduce the level of cortisol in your body that has risen because of the stress put on it by exercise. Cortisol stunts reduces immune function leading to illness etc, so its a good idea to try and reduce it after exercise, this is in addition to the benefits of adaption by correctly refuelling the body in combination with proteins
this is not a spoon - yes of course, its now a 'blend' still contains the vegetable oil, but contains just enough other stuff to make it legal.
tomhughes - thanks for your input, it's been interesting reading.Can I just ask about coconut milk? Is it any good or just another fad?
I tend to roast vegetables ie carrots, butternut squash, parsnips etc so which is the best oil for this?
Coconut milk is definitely not a fad and is a very good choice. For frying roasting I would preferably use coconut oil followed by real butter (kerrygold) but coconut oil for roasting as it can handle the higher temperatures without going bad
Tom - I thought vegetable oil was OK?, I thought it was just hydrogenated fats (Trans fats) that were a problem.
For people who don't know they take regular vegetable oils and add hydrogen atoms (hydrogenation) under high temperature to make artificial fats, this solidifies the oil and makes it last longer e.g. margarine, but has been linked to diabetes and other health issues and has been illegal in Denmark for several years as Tom indicated.
By the way the food manufacturers have got wise to the fact that people are waking up to trans fats/hydrogenated fats and have started to label with other names such as E471 or mono and di-glycerides of fatty acids, if you see any of these on your food lables including hydrogenated fats it basically contains trans fats.
I was surprised to find every single loaf of bread when I looked in Tescos a few months back had trans-fats (they had labeled with e471 or mono/di-glycerides of fatty acids so as not to alert people to this toxic sh*te). This is what prompted me to buy a bread machine and make my own.
Serious question... if two hypothetically identical people were consuming the same number of calories, one through a 'balanced' diet, and one just eating butter, would the butter eater be less fat, as fat doesn't make you fat?
Can you tell that to all the pro-wannabes leaving gel wrapper litter on a racecourse during a one hour short course XC race
And all the people asking what energy drink to use for their 15 minute commute!
Thanks very much tom and Teifiterror. 8)
njee, serious answer, the butter eater would probably be thinner!
They wouldn't be as healthy as the butter would not contain all they needed, but because of the lack of insulin stimulation they wouldn't accumulate fat. They would also only eat the amount their body required for energy. Especially as butter is not sweet.
sweetness causes a dopaminergic based response causing us to over-eat, which is why sweetners can make you over eat and gain weight, especially as sweetners make you crave carbs. This has been proven in many studies.
Serious question... if two hypothetically identical people were consuming the same number of calories, one through a 'balanced' diet, and one just eating butter, would the butter eater be less fat, as fat doesn't make you fat?
Not sure that would be too healthy but potentially they would be less fat because a. It takes more energy to convert fat to energy than carbs to energy and b. you excrete excess blood glucose (from carbs) as body fat while you excrete excess ketones (energy source from fat) in your urine and on your breath!
No probs cinnamon girl, I'm glad your getting something out of the discussion.
Fun fact, ta.
What I want to know is does Solo explode at any point on this thread?
Phil looked to be playing the catalyst at one point. But I got bored before the end of page 1.
Thanks for all the input guys, it wasn't quite what I expected in terms of direction for the thread, but its been a great source of knowledge.
Id also like this answered comprehensively please:
Question here.So, you do your morning ride, fueled by your bodily fat reserves and glycogen stored in the muscles ?
Then when you get back from your ride.
You do not carb up.
Does the body then re-charge your muscles with glycogen, by converting your body fat to glycogen ?.
In hindsight, and based on the info provided here, im now thinking that Atkins isn't the best solution for me rather a very low carb +simple carbs post exercise diet.
My next question would be, as a budding trainee traithelete and regular cyclist and runner, whats the best diet solution for me - considering that im also still very overweight.
Essentially, weight loss is my ultimate target, but performance during exercise is still very important to me.
For what its worth, I keep up with most slim folk in most disciplines - with probably the exception of running where I am very slow.
Lasts nights off road excursion left me reeling after approx 30 mins, at which point lactic build up in my quads made hill climbs unbearable.
Even wlaking up the stairs to my office this morning resulted in lactic burn. A feeling im not used to anymore!
Should I simply consume some simple carbs post exercise to aid recovery?
I heard the other day that sunflower oil was ok, as was olive oil. Is this true?
Slimjim I would say idave is right up your alley so to say.
What I want to know is does Solo explode at any point on this thread?
Not yet. Maybe he's off having a glass of milk.
essential fats, or essential amino acids
I always thought that ^^^ plus vitamins (the clue is in the name) was it.
Vegetarians can help but eat carbs to get all the essential amino acids due to mix of grains/pulses required. Unless you just eat Soy
For what its worth, I keep up with most slim folk in most disciplines - with probably the exception of running where I am very slow.
As a bit of motivation to help realise the bennefits of weight loss-
So just how much can you expect to benefit from being lighter? Joe Henderson, the author of various books on running, has this to offer: "The loss of a single pound doesn't mean much for a single mile, but the effect multiplies nicely. Ten pounds equals 20 seconds per mile, which grows to a minute-plus in a 5K, more than two minutes in a 10K, nearly 4.5 minutes in a half-marathon and almost nine minutes in a marathon."
Which is why I am annoyed at myself for being so open on a public forum, at the end of the day my comments may do more harm than good, which is deeply upsetting.
Tom. Don't apologise. you ate confirming a suspicion some of us have had from listening to our bodies and food cravings for a while. Keeping a food diary and spotting patterns (drink 2 cans of Coje as emergency fuel - overheat for the next two days) ties up with a lot of what you ate saying.
Not yet. Maybe he's off having a glass of milk.
*waits*
I'm off for a swim after which I will eat some peanut butter and jam sarnies washed down with a pint of milk. Did you hear that Solo? Bread and Milk!!
you [b]ate [/b]confirming a suspicion some of us have had from listening to our bodies and food cravings for a while. Keeping a food diary and spotting patterns (drink 2 cans of Coje as emergency fuel - overheat for the next two days) ties up with a lot of what you ate saying. ties up with a lot of what you [b]ate [/b]saying.
Freudian slip?
I'd love to go for a bike ride with Dave and Tom I have a billion and one questions, being a biffer an all.
*edit* Not that I'd be able to keep up
autocorrect
dammit
Is there a link to comprehensive iDave diet info?
YGM Slim
if anyone wants to offer to guide me round the peaks they can have a day finding out everything I know, I warn you though, once I start talking I don't stop.
[b]@legspin[/b]
Any chance you could send me the info sheet please (if it is the new updated one)?
I'll take you up on that Tom, if you don't mind waiting at the top of the climbs?
Just want to say thanks to tomhughes, solo, idave and the other knowledgeble people here who took the time to share.
Just bought a copy of the diet delusion.
Ex Virgin Olive oil
No difference between ex virgin olive oil and plain old olive oil as far as I know apart from taste? I thought sunflower was generally regarded as pretty decent too, interested if this isn't a case.
The only thing I'd add is there is a probably a difference between trained 'athletes' (i.e. people doing 4-5 hours on water alone) and the average person trying to stay in reasonable shape by eating carefully and riding a bit. I can conclusively say I suffer like a dog over around 3 hours if I don't have porridge before I go out and eat a bit on the way around.
There is a massive difference I'm afraid. Much more than the taste.
Extra virgin is pressed, its a juice. Its not refined.
Regular olive oil is refined from all the crap that has been pressed for all its good oil. It is chemically refined and the result is.....Lamp oil!
This has high levels of certain toxins that are known to be toxic to humans and animals.
To make it fit for human consumption it has a small amount of extra virgin added to it to water down the toxic acids, from IIRC 6% (above which is toxic apparently) to 5% which makes all the difference apparently.
So that olive oil your using is no better than most other chemical refined oils.
Sunflower oil is the same I'm afraid. The high heat involved in refining causes alterations in the fats - now let me be clear - we do not know if these are harmful YET, but the skeptic in me says they are manmade so best avoided. The also DO create trans fats, which are isomers of the originals - if my chemistry isn't failing me there. It doesn't go full saturation like margerine but still alters the fats makeup. Not good in my opinion.
legspin I'll take you up on that if you retract your earlier statement in the thread 😛