[Closed] Riding fixed without a Lock Ring

I don't ride with either a lockring or a co... 😳 on the track. AFAIK, very few riders do, including not many of the BC track team.

Not really needed, as the pedalling action tightens up the sprocket. However, if you're someone who likes to stand on the pedals and lock up the rear wheel (like some baseball capped fixie kid), then a lockring would be a good idea.

I'll prob run one on the road fixed I'm going to build.

Ive heard it said that the rotafix method of tightening the cog on the hub can do it sufficiently tighly to make a lock ring unnecessary...

http://204.73.203.34/fisso/eng/schpignonestep1.htm

track no. road yes. although i did run without one on the road but only because it took 2 people with a scaffold pole as a lever to fit an EAI cog onto a goldtec hub, no amount of skidding was going to move it.

No cock ring or lock ring for me then.

Ready for my first fixed, off road, fully rigid, 96er, tubeless, Custom Ti adventure.

Any niche unticked?

i didnt run one for a while but then in an emergency stoppy thingy i not only got thrown over the bars but also managed to undo the sprocket ;-( i then glued it on and it was fine tho i did buy one in the end

ive heard you can get an old bb collar to butt up against it and hold it on (this assumes its not a proper fixie hub and a normal screw on ss hub ??)

if you can fit one i would tbh

Track riders don't use a lockring because they use such a big gear, they don't have enough leverage to unscrew it with leg power - therefore it's unnecessary.

On the road, assuming you're not using a daft gear, that doesn't apply - you'll have a lot more leverage so you can spin the sprocket off, so it's a good idea to have one.

Legally, a fixed only counts as a rear brake if you have a lockring, but that doesn't matter because you'll be running a rear brake anyway.

Try not to live up to your name, WCA.

Anybody spot that the bike in those pics has got a lockring?

Legally, a fixed only counts as a rear brake if you have a lockring

Legally Id love to find a copper who whould know where a lockring goes, let alone what one is 😉

I'd never ride without one, even on the track. It weighs a couple of grams and could stop the cog undoing right when I desperately need it.

BigJohn - Trust me, I do!

Off road are you bloody mad

I tried fixed off road once and ended up covered in cow shit, mind you I was clattered at the time and did not find out till I woke up in my bed the next day 😳 and that little **** Danny Baker with his Aeril Ultra challenge was no where to be seen

What could possibly go wrong?

I think riding fixed off road, even with a back brake you will find yourself putting back pressure on the pedals. It will happen when you are going downhill fast and need to keep your speed under control. There's certainly a risk of spinning the cog. A fast downhill is possibly not the best time to discover that you've suddenly lost control.

Joe

Get a lockring. I rode fixed mtb for a while and on a very few occasions under heavy leg braking (no rear brake) the sprocket came undone and heading down a hill with only a front brake was an experience I'd happily dodge through choice.

Joe - that is the normal time I find I have lost control.

There is a disc on the back so brakes should be fine in emergencies. The rest of the time I hopefully won't be putting enough pressure on it.

[url= http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Lockrings_224.html ]Here[/url].

For a quid.

A metaphor about ships and tar springs to mind.

If you're riding off road, I'd say a lock ring is essential. You'll be using a pretty small gear so you'll easily spin the cog off. OK, you'll be able to stop no problem because of the rear brake, but no way can you ride a fixed off road without ever putting a lot of back pressure on the pedals. Long off road cranks will make it worse.

If you loosen the cog on a descent, and then stomp up a steep hill, you're quite likely to strip the thread on the hub as it tightens up suddenly.

The hub is the bottom picture on this web site : http://www.philwood.com/products/hubs/kiss-off-mtb-hubs/

There is no room to put a lock ring

You need a new hub then. Time to sell the Merc! 🙂

Hmm... might just risk it. Can always flog the wheel if it doesn't work

Beware steep drops! (I'm not saying don't do them - just beware!) Not for the normal reason, but when you go off the back of the saddle, you find your little legs aren't long enough to reach the bottom of the pedal stroke, so you lock up anyway.

"How do you know this?" I hear you ask...

so it's the hub clearly titled 'freewheel hub' then?

That's not a fixed hub, you can't use a lockring anyhow.

Ive heard it said that the rotafix method of tightening the cog on the hub can do it sufficiently tighly to make a lock ring unnecessary...

I can't see how that would make it any tighter than pedalling force tightening it on - in fact probably less so...

samuri, sam - bought second hand on the understanding it was 'fixed'. I am happy to keep the wheel as I can run it SS freewheel but I bought it to go fixed so wondering if I can use it for fixed anyway. No, this isn't the plan I had originally.

surely those are lockrings on the righthand threads in those pics? There's just no cog.

Track riders don't use a lockring because they use such a big gear, they don't have enough leverage to unscrew it with leg power - therefore it's unnecessary.

the main reason is to make cog changing easier and quicker. you will be changing cogs often if you are switching between disciplines that require different gear inches or if you are going to a different velodrome. for example calshot has a maximum GI in the 80's because of the short straights. a gear used here would be too low for herne hill.

A lockring is a l/h thread with a smaller diameter than the r/h sprocket thread. And there are at least 2 different sizes of lockring. Mine is Campag, which is different to the one I bought from my LBS.

PQ - I'm still using the campag one you lent me, thanks.

Use lots of Loctite and tell the wife you love her before every ride.

John, they are only on the fixed hubs. The lockring thread is a smaller diameter and left hand threaded - so that as the cog backs up against it the lockring tightens.

sam - I believe you get better leverage by rotating the rim by hand than you do by rotating the crank by and so the sprocket by gearing.

[i]sam - I believe you get better leverage by rotating the rim by hand than you do by rotating the crank by and so the sprocket by gearing. [/i]

While this may be true from a workshop perspective, there's no way you could apply anywhere near the same force that you could by pounding on the pedals up a hill.

I'll fix a cog to a hub by taking it out for a quick sharp ride first with plenty of sprints, ensuring I do no back pedalling, then grease the lockring up good and proper and fit that.

While this may be true from a workshop perspective, there's no way you could apply anywhere near the same force that you could by pounding on the pedals up a hill.

physicist to the thread please! time to break out the calculator!

[i]Track riders don't use a lockring because they use such a big gear, they don't have enough leverage to unscrew it with leg power - therefore it's unnecessary.[/i]

Lockrings on the track are recommended but not compulsory. Although there's a couple of events/velodromes that specify you must use a lockring. Riding off-road without one is pushing the boundaries of sanity and safety.

[i]Riding off-road without one is pushing the boundaries of sanity and safety.[/i]

Sounds perfect for me then.

I'm fairly certain gentlemen who can get a bike up to 50mph have enough power to unscrew an unlocked cog no matter what gearing they're using.

While this may be true from a workshop perspective, there's no way you could apply anywhere near the same force that you could by pounding on the pedals up a hill.

Your cranks are 170mm, compared to a 311mm radius wheel, which is 1.8 times the leverage. Then you're going through a gearing system, say if you're using a 70 inch gear, that's another 2.5 times the leverage. Using the wheel as a lever, you'd have a total of 4.6 times the amount of force. Are your legs really capable of applying 4 and a half times as much force as your arms? That may be true, although I'm not 100% sure of it. Using your arms would have a bonus in that it would be a nice smooth application of force, so you're much less likely to break things either - like when you use a scaffold pipe to remove stuck cranks, it always seems much less bad for them than using a hammer on the allen key.

Joe

You're talking about smooth application of force, while my legs may or may not be capable of applying 4 times the force (I'm fairly sure they are), in a smooth manner, I know for a fact they can deliver many more times that in an explosive burst, which is how the power is delivered when you properly mash the pedals.

You're quite welcome to try and turn a wheel backwards while I try and ride it forwards. 😉

JDI.

What's the worst that can happen to a £150 hub as the cog starts unscrewing?

A fool and his money and all that.

There is another option. 🙂

For this reason, for our conversions, we weld the cog and lockring onto the hub, so that when you stop, your cog wont pop off! In our experience, the welded conversion is just as safe as a track hub; neither one has ever broken that we know of. However, if you plan on riding without a front brake, we recommend using a track wheel just to be sure.

I know of people who've broken welded cogs. Although it was on chain driven unicycles (way larger forces than on a bike) and by all reports they lasted quite long.

Joe

[i]we weld the cog and lockring onto the hub[/i]

Total pain if you ever want to change your cog!

Suggestion not made in all seriousness (the quote is from an advert by a business that Bikesnob called "a fixed-gear meth lab"). But I want to see if he tries it. 🙂

The Doctors won't let me have crayons, what chance a welding torch!

show them the contents of this thread and they won't let you have your liberty either - sectioned on the basis of a danger to yourself or others...

You're quite welcome to try and turn a wheel backwards while I try and ride it forwards

That's a much more illustrative example than guess-work about crank lengths, wheel size and gear ratios. Bike in turbo with no resistance, person holding outside of wheel. Pedal away. I'd have my money on the rider every time unless the gear was massive and the tyre was grippy.

That's a much more illustrative example than guess-work about crank lengths, wheel size and gear ratios. Bike in turbo with no resistance, person holding outside of wheel. Pedal away. I'd have my money on the rider every time unless the gear was massive and the tyre was grippy.

Yeah probably so. If that is the case, then it's an interesting demonstration that the bike allows you to put more than 4 times as much power through your legs than just using your arms alone. Although it does depend a lot on the gearing, and these track bikes do tend to have very high gears no?

Thinking about it, you could modify the wheel turning method by putting the bike on the ground and pushing it forwards. I imagine you could put quite a large amount of force on then - if someone stands and pushes backwards on your handlebars as hard as possible, can you make the bike move forwards, or do you get moved backwards? That'd be a kind of fair comparison, I've never tried that either.

Joe

Your cranks are 170mm, compared to a 311mm radius wheel, which is 1.8 times the leverage. Then you're going through a gearing system, say if you're using a 70 inch gear, that's another 2.5 times the leverage. Using the wheel as a lever, you'd have a total of 4.6 times the amount of force. Are your legs really capable of applying 4 and a half times as much force as your arms? That may be true, although I'm not 100% sure of it. Using your arms would have a bonus in that it would be a nice smooth application of force, so you're much less likely to break things either - like when you use a scaffold pipe to remove stuck cranks, it always seems much less bad for them than using a hammer on the allen key.

I think the 70 inch gear = 2.5 times the leverage bit is wrong. You need a smaller chainring to get more torque. A bigger gear amplifies distance travelled, not force.

I'm pretty sure that the rider on rollers on a fixie would not be able to turn the wheel if someone is holding it. But the rider will be able to stand on the pedal and get his whole weight on it, so will have more force than you can get through your arms. Someone needs to test it!

I don't run a lock ring. Just used a chain and a bit of wood to tighten the sproket on to the hub and away. Been running ok around town for the last year ok.

I reckon I could hold a wheel quite easily on a roller while sam tried to pedal away from a standing start.

and I have successfully pushed someone backwards down the road while they were trying to ride forwards.

Does this mean I will or won't die when I ride the flaming bike?

It is getting late and at this rate I will be using the cock ring before the lock ring.

😉

[i]

I don't run a lock ring. Just used a chain and a bit of wood to tighten the sproket on to the hub and away. Been running ok around town for the last year ok. [/i]

But how do you ride?
Skip stops, skids, slowing with back pressure etc or do you mostly use the back brake?

Offroad is a totally different kettle of frogs with the far lower gear, steeper downs and varying grip.

I've undone cogs that have been on my fixed for a thousand miles by taking the lockring off and riding round the road and slowing down rapidly with my legs.

Tom - I am not planning to skid by pedalling backwards or anything clever like that. I reckon speeding up and gently slowing down will all the pedals will be used for. The occasional unexpected down hilly bit I guess but it is the south of England, Swinley will be as severe as it gets.

Are you saying off road without lock ring is okay?

I happily[1] ran fixed offroad for a few rides without a lockring.

[1]OK, that's a lie, it was shit.

It adds interest to the New Forest, just don't want to wreck a Phil Woods hub

As I said before JDI.
I'm sure it'll be fine as there are no downhills in the south anyway.

get some loctite - strong stuff.

he clearly just wants us to back him up .... hes not gettting a lockring is he ...

let him do it , then wait for the thread " ****ed my hub "

You WILL want to do skips 'n skidz 'n stuff & then it WILL come undone, trust me.

[i]But the rider will be able to stand on the pedal and get his whole weight on it[/i]

And the rider will be able to pull on the bars, dunno how much extra force that adds. The person standing in front of the bike is an entirely different proposition. There's all the additional factors of that persons's weight and the friction of their feet on the ground.

take the advice of some very experienced fixie riders WCA, at best you'll undo the cog and die, at worst you'll knacker your hub.