[Closed] Redlands (Surrey Hills) - FC dismantling trails

[quote=WaywardRider ]custom and practice have given them legitimacy 😆

I was up there last night. Yes lots of signs up, very polite mind you just saying they've removed a trail feature. There were a couple of trails where the trail had been cut short like uncle fester but others seemed intact. It may just be early days and they may be doing the lo. I'll find our on Sat.

Will be a shame if they do but the trails up there have to be some of the most contentious in the area. Besides, isn't it private land so unlikely to be FC doing anything?

It will just be the 12,24 month cycle that happens in Redlands. If people stop putting stupid gaps in, in easily visible places they don't get the arse.!

It is private, but leased to FC. When is The pheasant season?

Actually it's owned by the FC but leased to a local farmer who runs pheasant shoots there. The game keeper isn't bothered by mtbing, more concerned with anauthorised access by 4 wheel drives and quad bikes. Hence the recent steel barriers. Apparently 4wd smashed the wooden gate to gain access.

Do you mean the Summer lightning stuff, or the "other stuff", where the filming was going on a few years ago?

The flip side of being cheeky is discretion.

It's not Summer Lighting, mikey. Different aspect of the hill.

There's some nice stuff on Redlands; I think a trail like Turning Japanese should be safe as its quite discrete and there's no built features. C'est la vie.

It's not Summer Lighting, mikey. Different aspect of the hill.

I think I know where you are talking about. I used to love it there, but I had heard that access had been stopped. I may have to check it out at the weekend.

Fairly certain the land is private and FC just manage it. For the years I've been riding there it was always the farmer who hated MTBs on the land, and FC were just carrying out instructions/policy..

Hope nothing comes if it but we'll see. Had signs before but storm damage does more trail blocking than FC/farmer. Lots of trails in quite a tight area but i rarely see anyone aside the usual suspects

Don't think I've seen a single MTBer up there in 2-3 years. Don't tend to hang around there myself though, usually just hack up to the top from the the A24 or else head down the remaining sections of old skool goodness (WOM etc) and be done with it.

Didn't those gates get erected (for the first time?) or smashed in years ago?

Shame, have always had a strange affinity for the place. That log run was fun in the wet back in the day.

This has happened before. What goes down comes up.

Is there not a local group who can approach the FC and discuss the trails? Working together must be the best option???

I think I know where you are talking about.

No doubt.

The clue's in the thread title, anyone with an OS map and a bit of trail sniffing instinct can find it.

There are rights of way.

As said, this goes round in cycles, and yes it's private ownership under FC management, but then most are anyway. It's just the landowner would prefer bikes keep off and has made threats in the past of getting police involved etc (though they'll only get involved if they can catch people digging, i.e. criminal damage).

I feel it's just a front really to scare people off when there are activities going on. A film shoot upcoming again perhaps? 😉

General rule amongst folk who ride there is to not shout much about the place. For one thing because of the sensitive nature, but also the place is quite nice and quiet. If the hoards moved in from Peaslake it would be trashed and the landowner really would go nuts, it would generate a lot of anti-bike press and we end up with more articles about vandalism by "drunken swearing hooligans" 😉

There has been more mtbers up there recently than there has been in a long time. The trails are looking increasingly obvious too- deadkenny hits the nail on the head

General rule amongst folk who ride there is to not shout much about the place. For one thing because of the sensitive nature, but also the place is quite nice and quiet. If the hoards moved in from Peaslake it would be trashed and the landowner really would go nuts, it would generate a lot of anti-bike press and we end up with more articles about vandalism by "drunken swearing hooligans"

but custom and practice have given them legitimacy.

😆 Blimey, I must remember this the next time when I want to acquire land.

Is there not a local group who can approach the FC and discuss the trails? Working together must be the best option???

It was the local trailbuilders who got caught digging there quite a while back. FE then gave them some land to build on, and that became Summer lightning, the builders were Redlands Trails.

This happens every few years, the last time was when a famous, or infamous trail builder added his touch to the trails.

Agreed with DK. Too many trails are too obvious these days in certain places. IME the best stuff is well hidden with an effort to ensure there are no obvious trail heads.

DK nailed it. Threads on prominent forums don't help with discretion either. If there is more traffic I guess that's a side effect of SL2 being nearby, there would be no winners if the hordes moved in. Let's let this thread die a quiet death.

Local trails for local riders :wink
I believe one of the reasons they become more obvious is people riding/ploughing them through winter.

bubs - Member
Local trails for local riders

True. I'm not a fan of the whole "local people only" or rather building a trail on land that isn't yours or public access land and then wanting no one to use it but you and your mates. If you build a trail, it should be for the community as a whole, otherwise on private land you own.

However I'm conflicted as there are some lovely trails, or even just nice quiet countryside with trails dotted about which really are nice when there aren't too many people about. I don't feel they should be restricted to just a core group, but at the same time you only have to look at the situation around Peaslake on a weekend to see where you don't want it to go (lovely trails though they are around there).

I love it when I see some fresh tread marks on a new trail I've built - it means it's been discovered and enjoyed ! 😀

I'll be unveiling a new trail on tonight's night ride.

The trails in peaslake are getting to the point where the main routes are going to need the same kind of top treatment that the new trail on Leith received. Traffic is so heavy on them now, even through winter, they suffer a lot of wear. The bomb hole bit on evian is going to result in an ambulance trip soon for someone as the entry to it is getting steeper with some chunky roots poking through. I'm not against it per se, just slightly concerned that an accident could lead to the destruction of a cracking trail. Anyway, I digress, must explore Redlands more as I only found a few last time I was over that way.

Was at peaslake the other sunday, friend was demoing a bike and wanted to go over there. Could not believe how busy it was. Felt bad for the trails getting royally battered in filthy conditions.

Why were these people out?

Can't they stick to more sustainable trails when it's filthy out. Though the main trails of holmbury are pretty weather resistant, i'd say pitch/winterfold/leith really need minimal riding in the winter. I write them off as soon as it gets to winter, they're slow, rubbish compared to the dry (though still pretty good in the wet), when you could be getting the same bang for buck on more sustainable trails, leaving the good trails in better nick for when it dires up.

What I like about redlands is that I rarely see anyone else there. Trails are def getting more use now though as many formely hidden trails are now all too obvious.

Anyone remember 'wave of mutilation' there? The one over the big fallen tree and then sharply up hill. This was from 5/6 years ago. Nirvana built I recall. Now fallen into complete disuse though still just manageable.

The bomb hole bit on evian is going to result in an ambulance trip soon for someone as the entry to it is getting steeper with some chunky roots poking through.

So I heard. A mate broke his frame on that last week, hitting the compression a lot harder than he expected.

I also read that there were queues for some of the popular trails at Pitch last weekend, I've never seen that.

Hard to see how this is sustainable, something's going to give.

Dean local culture, well before the area became known, has been year round riding. Hard to see how it's going to change.

We should make a new thread if we want to talk about this, let's not push the Redlands URL.

Oh dear, haven't been up to winterfold for a while. Hope the Evian bomb hole isn't getting ruined (eh, jambalaya!! 😉 )

I'm certainly going to eyeball it before I ride it again. I'm a bit of a wuss tho compared to the huck-hounds. I've done injured, it's over-rated.

I thought it was just me with that bomb hole. Took me three or four attempts before I was happy. Like all bomb holes, once you have done it once, you wonder why you ever minced!! But a bit our of practice. I can see how you could easily come a cropper on it.

Northern monkey is my current bogey. Always fall of on it!

Up until it started to get wet, Evian was probably running the best it ever has, with the little bit of work to berm up a few of the corners.

The bombhole is always good for a hucker's neck moment.

The bomb hole on Evian I've learnt just varies with conditions. It caught me out a couple of years back in similar situation where it had got very steep, then as it dries out and wears during the summer it becomes easier, then weather exposes the roots again, etc.

Though it's fine at the moment. Aim slightly to the right and fine. Bigger issue are the puddles at the bottom, and worse the boggy hell at the end of Evian 😀

deanfbm - Member
Was at peaslake the other sunday, friend was demoing a bike and wanted to go over there. Could not believe how busy it was. Felt bad for the trails getting royally battered in filthy conditions.

Why were these people out?

Sunday is the worst day and guaranteed now that Walking Bottom will be full around mid morning.

I've noticed over the years, aside from shit loads more people there now, a lot of people seem to come out at weekends, especially Sunday, during winter months when it's boggy, compared to the summer. Which is odd, as you'd think there'd be more with fair weather riders. Maybe in the summer people make trips away, are on holiday or tend to be doing sunny weather family things.

that bombehole as said is going to cause someone some injury. It ****ing hurts hitting it at speed, plus it's also filling up quite nicely with rain water, so it's more a soup bowel now..

I rode that bomb hole on Evian last week - I've never ridden that trail before and wasn't expecting it, I had time to think "oh shit" but managed to pull it off with a slightly hysterical chuckle 😉 - those roots half way down are now lodged in my memory though.

Evan - the hole - During the summer I went over the bars and smacked my jaw onto a root, no minus a tooth as a result.

soup bowel

serendipitous auto-correct 😕

minus a tooth as a result

yowch. that's your modelling contracts cancelled then.

a shame this, it used to be a pleasant roll/drop about the level I'm happy with.

anyway things change, so it goes, and it's good to be warned.

Evian bomb hole claimed a victim about 3 weeks ago, guy prejumped it, very experienced rider, and right angled his ankle, ambulance was summoned.

It felt like there was a bit of a hole at the bottom of the downslope when I last went through it a few weeks ago which I suspect will be the issue. Naturally my 29er wheels were fine as they just rolled through but I suspect anyone on a 26 would have been gravely injured.

More seriously though you tend to carry a fair bit of pace into it even if you don't have the pre-jump skills as I don't. Only a matter of time before there's an over the bars and some form of neck injury.

OK, firstly its never nice when a fellow MTBer gets injured...and as i work in the Ambo service i've seen some genuine spinal injuries and they are truly horrific to deal with as even the patient seems to know the gravity of the situation straight away....paralysed RTC victims?...check....guy dived into unknown depth water and paralysed himself?....check....all horrific and i wouldnt wish that on anybody....but....

....you're riding 'natural' trails in the Surrey Hills, its not a Trail Centre, when riding natural stuff you shouldnt be hitting stuff full whack unless you've had a pootle along it already or walked it first....take it easy, if you like the trail go back and hit it at full pelt now you know how the land lies so to speak...if you're riding a graded trail centre and something unexpected occurs then you have every right to be angry as these places tend to be maintained, signposted, have chicken lines etc....but when you're actually out in the countryside a different set of rules apply and i sometimes think people forget that.

People expect to ride places like the Surrey Hills the same way they would BPW or Cwmcarm, Swinley and the like....it doesnt work like that, unauthorised building takes place on natural trails, the weather wrecks trails carved from natural terrain in a completely different way to the hard packed and weather proofed routes at a trail centre.

I would hate to see a ban on riding places like the Surrey Hills and i would also hate to see the natural terrain and features sanitised due to unrealistic expectations of some MTBers and crashes that are completely avoidable if people respect where they are riding.

When i lived in the south east there was some very local stuff (literally end of my road) on MOD land (Cesars Camp) and there were/are road gaps, 6ft drops, log jumps etc that could cause serious injury, or be great fun to ride depending on your skill level and point of view....but in all my years of riding there i never heard of anybody getting injured and i never saw an ambulance....nobody has a gun to your head telling you to ride this stuff and certainly nobody would advise you hit this stuff fast and blind.

I've not heard anybody complain. But neither is it viable to walk every familiar trail on every visit. We do this trail on night-rides when it's dry.

Be mindful I guess, and it's good to have a heads-up this one.

As for the area as a whole sooner later the kickback from locals and other user groups will cause a reassessment of access I think. As you say deviant it's not a bike park.

Well in my case - I wasn't going all that fast, just following another rider, I reckon my rigid front and 4.8" tyre saved me! I was riding a a big group, not really possible to walk all the trails before riding them, we'd not get any riding done , if that was the case 😉

it could have been your beard and sandals

^^^ indeed, as apart from keeping the cash rolling in at the village shop and the pub lots of bikers provide very little benefit to the area. They should work out some system of charging for parking in my opinion with the funds rolled back into trail maintenance and the local school/events etc. However that opens up a whole can of worms about policing it, parking on roads ya de ya de ya....

Beard was certainly a factor 😉

obviously anyone who rides from home should be exempt all charges and restrictions

What would really help the Surrey hills, is people realising there is more parking than just walking bottom.

uselesshippy - Member
What would really help the Surrey hills, is people realising there is more parking than just walking bottom

Very true. Though on Sundays the car parks up Pitch Hill are getting busy now also.

Sadly many people still park in the village blocking the roads and annoying the locals.

@useless sadly the fact is Walking Bottom is the most convenient place to park when riding that area. The top and middle Pitch car parks are often full these days too. Even my "secret" car park near BKB on Radnor Lane gets full sometimes.

Bomb holes, always make sense to ride any trail sensibly first. I always warn people that the Evian bomb hole should be respected first time around. Also IMO the landing / transition is too flat to pre-jump it. Trails change, aside from wear and tear new features get built, we had a long discussion here about a crash after someone built a drop into the middle of SuperNova. Its a potentially dangerous sport and we have to take care and take responsibility.

As WB fills up more frequently, and demand rises as it seems to be, overflow will naturally find the other places. Alternative parking is just a stop gap really.

I wish I had an easy answer on this one. I don't. More car parks isn't the answer, even if it was feasible.

Sign of the growing popularity of cycling and how overcrowded the South East has become i'm afriad.

how overcrowded the South East has become i'm afraid

eh?

I have been riding the surrey hills for 15 years, I rarely see people making idiots of themselves. It really is not as bad as people make it out to be.

I tend to start in Boxhill and earn my ride in Holmbury and Winterfold.

Some cracking riding around Leith and Ranmore as well.

Sign of the growing popularity of cycling and how overcrowded the South East has become i'm afriad.

I fear another one of these....

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/surrey-hills-at-bursting-point

Don't know the area you chaps are talking about but was interested in seeing what the bomb ho,e looked like. Found this, made me laugh, is this the thing you are on about? [url= https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVv40OE0cM ]linky[/url]

Can't see what all the fuss is about. Yes it's a bit busy in the car parks at the mo due to it being the best place to ride in the area at this time of year as even when it's muddy it's still fun and not claggy. Once you're out on the trails it's hardly over crowded! Evian bomb hole is no more dangerous than many other trail features up there. Just check your speed, and stick to right a bit.

No it's not that one.

Would that be classed as a bomb hole anyway? Just interested in what determines a bomb hole

I'd say not. Tend to think of a bomb hole as a 'crater', so a drop that you have to climb back out of immediately afterwards.

[url=

is the trail, drop at 0:46, this will of course now lead to a raft of "lololol that's so easy" comments, which I can't be arsed to rebut, it's not a tough feature, but the natural line has some nasty roots running across it, and it's a very abrupt transition at the bottom (far more so than in that vid). Staying right sets you up better, but you have to know that - you can't see over the lip, and it's on a slight RH bend.

I don't think the roots are actually a problem - they might scare people but you just roll over them. However, it's a very abrupt transition. Weight balance wrong and you could easily end up in a heap. Suspect the wet weather has made it a lot worse as well.

Parking in the centre of the village is just rude - there's are stacks of car parks around and none of them make a huge difference to your ride. The car park up the hill from WB was almost doubled in size in the second half of last year. There are 3 car parks on the road up Holmebury from Peaslake - you're only one climb/descent from the village if that's important to you.

WB is good as you can finish on a descent but it's mostly just a reputation. Drive a van, wear yellow, whoop, park at Walking Bottom.

It's not a hard feature but the compression has got noticeably harsher in recent times. Need to be careful if taking it at full pelt.

I hate videos 😉 everything looks so flat!!!

You minced in THAT????

Yes guilty as charged first few times!

deviant totally agree- I think surrey hills now has sheer weight of numbers which lead to higher frequency of hits.

A magazine that really gets my ****ing goat is mbr- cant think of any content? Hey lets run yet another feature on the Surrey Hills. Its overloading private land with yet more punters coming to see what its about. Ok at a trail centre but natural trails aren't designed for the volume.

Anyway- on facebook someone posted up a vid of doubles/big jumps etc in the surrey hills. Sadly build those and you are asking for trouble from all angles.

Hora, if it's the vids I am thinking about they have been around for a while (hint: FT or bottom of NM). Both reasonably well hidden away but I am amazed that the latter have survived.

Yes

Dunno, that's not a trail folk would happen upon, and the jumpy line is very separate. Building stuff on the more touristy trails that the public see is more likely to cause conflict.

Let's let this thread die a quiet death.

We should make a new thread if we want to talk about this, let's not push the Redlands URL.

Good suggestions matt...not going well 🙁

yeah total fail there

The Evian drop has already had its own special thread http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/evian-wfld-thats-a-cheeky-little-surprise

no it's not really a bombhole if we're going to be pedantic

The big doubles at the bottom of NM are sufficiently out of the way, plus they arn't exactly compulsory.

What I can't work out, despite them being a lot of fun, is to put a massive jump line right next Evian, one of the busiest trails in the area. I'm amazed firstly they are still there & secondly no-one has spannered themselves on it.

@john when you have some time we can do a ride there. The Evian "bomb hole" is a bit higher and steeper than the video and as noted the exit at the bottom is a little harsher too. There is no way I would ride it at full pelt or jump off the top. There are lots of these types of features in the Surrey Hills.

@hora in the "old days" the gap jumps tended to be well hidden, most still are. As such an average rider just wouldn't come across them, now they are increasingly on more accessible trails we are seeing more injuries as people have a go at stuff. Also the online videos and modern bike designs are a factor as previously only the very best would attempt a jump on a hardtail with 80mm of travel.

I agree with what @njee says on building bigger stuff on better known/more accessibly trails.

The Evian "bomb hole" isn't hard at all. The only issue is as mentioned earlier, this isn't a trail centre and conditions change. That one exposes roots in the winter and can seem much steeper than you expected if you hadn't done it for a bit and catches people out. Caught me out once and ended up with a comedy correction trying not to OTB and ended up sitting on my rear tyre 😀 . Since then I've got used to the fact it just changes and I'm a bit better at picking lines too.

hora - Member
A magazine that really gets my **** goat is mbr- cant think of any content? Hey lets run yet another feature on the Surrey Hills. Its overloading private land with yet more punters coming to see what its about. Ok at a trail centre but natural trails aren't designed for the volume.

Well, without MBR there wouldn't be Evian. Its other name, or the one I always knew it as is... MBR. Because as I understood it, they built it, or were responsible for it in some way.

But I do agree every time I see a big feature on SH in there I'm thinking it's probably best to steer clear of WB for a while 😉

Gotama - Member
^^^ indeed, as apart from keeping the cash rolling in at the village shop and the pub lots of bikers provide very little benefit to the area. They should work out some system of charging for parking in my opinion with the funds rolled back into trail maintenance and the local school/events etc. However that opens up a whole can of worms about policing it, parking on roads ya de ya de ya....

There's a few donation boxes around the Hurtwood car parks to donate to the Friends of the Hurtwood. That money doesn't go to trails but it goes to the upkeep of the Hurtwood, keeping the car parks open, clearing trees (including from established trails). If you like you can also donate online or become a 'friend' with a regular donation http://www.friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/

Plus there are donation boxes in the village store. One for Hurtwood, one for I think the local school, and there's now one for trails funding the official work on Summer Lightning and for future developments.

[img] [/img]

However there won't be any official fund raising for the vast majority of trails about as they are all unofficial if not technically illegal apart from BKB, Yog Pots & Summer Lightning.

Not charging for parking is something the Hurtwood would prefer and instead work through fund raising. Charging anyway doesn't put people off, just see what it's like at Swinley now! All it does is bring in a parking company who's only interest is in slapping fines on people.

A solution that we'd all prefer to avoid is to make the whole place an official trail centre. However I can see that being a struggle to avoid the way things are going. There is room maybe for the odd official trail though to deal with areas of conflict. Perhaps they'd take the pressure off other areas. But again, just see Swinley to see the results. Not somewhere I enjoy going to so much any more, though it is great to see a lot of folk get out on bikes there that probably otherwise would be sitting on the sofa.

I think an official trail from the top of pitch down to join the main run on that hill (think its called JWTSN) would work well as it would keep people zipping down the fireroad from the top. I also think that putting a summer lightening style treatment on the existing trail would not take anything away from it really, possibly making it better given there is no natural tech stuff on it and it would roll faster.

The trails round there are fantastic given their natural state, far more interesting and fun to ride than trail centres imo but I think we're moving closer to having to find some kind of happy medium, similar to what is happening on Leith and has done with YP and BKB. I can't see it ever becoming an official trail centre though, there would be way too much opposition from locals I imagine.

The problem with those collection tins is that I suspect most people who ride around the area have no interest in contributing and no interest in the impact of bikers on locals which is a sad state of affairs really.

However I can see that being a struggle to avoid the way things are going.

Agreed, sadly. A handful of sanctioned 'official' trails and bikes otherwise restricted to the fire roads and bridleways, Swinley style.

The only way to hold it off I think is no more building unless sanctioned, in the hope that demand levels off, and presumably some kind of legal protection for the Hurtwood to cover them if someone is badly injured and a legal claim kicks off (it's only a matter of time). That was the final straw at Swinley I believe.

Posts crossed in the ether.

I can't see it ever becoming an official trail centre though, there would be way too much opposition from locals I imagine.

Actually I suspect locals and other user groups would opt for the Swinley model - management and containment - compared to what we have now.

I have some sympathy with walkers and horsers feeling parts of the Hurtwood aren't safe and peaceful places to visit any more due to the volume of bikes.

Actually I suspect locals and other user groups would opt for the Swinley model - management and containment - compared to what we have now.

Fair point, there is however a lot of negativity towards bikers and something that gives them/us a more official set up may be frowned upon as I suspect people will, rightly or wrongly, just take the view that it will bring even more traffic to the area. I haven't been to swinley so have no idea how that system works really. My view on trail centres has been formed by the set ups in south wales.

Anyway, three pages in now so most of those planning on a surrey hills trip will be heading Redlands way now!

A lot of unreasonable people in Surrey. Look at what the British Horse Society did to the trails on Leith Hill.

Also, Swinley is owned by one land-owner, whereas Surrey Hills is spread across a fair few - especially Winterfold.

I wouldn't be against Swinley-isation if they kept the character of the area, I wouldn't want the trails to become totally man-made, but some reinforcement and drainage work would help.

I have some sympathy with walkers and horsers feeling parts of the Hurtwood aren't safe and peaceful places to visit any more due to the volume of bikes.

Volume of bikers, lets get a reality check here, 80% of the time, the place is deserted! Some of the voices on here make it sound like bad day in Beirut!

If everyone plays nicely in the sandpit, all is well. I remember a couple of years ago Howard and his mates held a relay event in Leith and that was frowned upon (rightly so) and it stopped.

Leave it self governed please!

The only way to hold it off I think is no more building unless sanctioned

The issue is that too many mountain bikers are idiots/selfish/naive, and genuinely see no issue. A few years ago a random hip jump appeared in the middle of BKB, badly built, generally shit. A person who helped built it was proud of his efforts, and said it was necessary to "help the trails evolve", and was entirely oblivious to what a bad idea it was.

Events like the "Leith Hill Mega" are in the same category. Great fun - having watched the video I'd love to compete in something sanctioned - but really ****ing stupid.

Volume of bikers, lets get a reality check here, 80% of the time,

Maybe so but the 20% (weekends) of the time when bikes are out in numbers is also the 20% of time when other folks are also off work and want to be out walking or horsing or whatever so to their perception it's crowded.

@njee let's not go there!