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Having said that, it would be pocket change to Red Bull anyway I guess.Do you have any idea how much lifetime care for someone would be?
It’s certainly not pocket change, even for a relatively well known brand like Red Bull.
Likely to be in the 10s of millions.
pretty sure 10s of millions is pocket change to redbull.
Nah. I've seen nothing on this outside of this site, it's had no penetration of mainstream media
Well it is wrongly described as being a race and the date on the article is on the Friday before the men's event took place but this does mention the two major crashes so was obviously written or updated afterwards.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/red-bull-rampage-utah-freeride-racing-b2850920.html
Having said that, it would be pocket change to Red Bull anyway I guess.Do you have any idea how much lifetime care for someone would be?
It’s certainly not pocket change, even for a relatively well known brand like Red Bull.
Likely to be in the 10s of millions.
pretty sure 10s of millions is pocket change to redbull.
They pay Max Verstsappen $55m a year
Again according to google, their customer base is 18-34 year-olds, skewed towards men and thrill-seeking, urban, ambitious, energetic etc.
.. plus people working long hours or 2 jobs trying to make ends meet and other less glamorous or marketer-appealing demographics that could well make up the majority of sales. It’s like all the betel nut chewing that goes on in Asia.
I've struggled to read the aftermath of this and understand where responsibility lies and what is fair when the blame game starts going.
Accepting all the points in this thread that the actual behind the scenes support being provided is extremely murky, and also the free will acceptance of risk by individuals, it doesn't seem to fully add up.
The bit that strikes me is that most/all of the riders at Rampage seem to have been treated like zero hours contract workers - like Extreme Deliveroo. They have their own insurance as pro athletes, or they don't. No barrier to participation, their choice. No insurance available, no sponsor guarantees, no problem.
As a very casual spectator my unease is that I don't think I was really aware of that until the spotlight on this one young guy who really seems to taken maximum risk with minimum backup plan.
What do people want?
You want it to simply stop and go away as it's not to your taste?
You want something similar with a better rider support plan for the inevitable injuries?
Other options are available. The option 1 isn't really an option as it will simply come back with another name, and god help us/you/them may well reincarnate as an even more wild west option. Personal taste isn't a reason to ban this either..
I asked before, but don't know, what happens if someone has a big , life changing stack at Hardline, or one of the urban downhill races, or any downhill race in particular?
25/30 years ago i imagine the majority of Red Bull’s revenue stream came from pubs/clubs as folk necked their vodka/red bulls by the shitload…
I know I contributed my fair share to their bank balance when under the influence of drugs
I was never brave enough to combine it with other stimulants, but I wonder how popular Jagerbombs are these days?
Regarding insurance, someone over on pinkbike with decades of insurance experience on similarly big stuff said that an event like Rampage is uninsurable from the point of view of the competitors, no underwriter will take on the risk. (He said he'd have been asked to quote on it at some point in the last 20 years if it was possible). I don't know if that's true but it makes a lot of sense.
Likely the same contributor that made exactly the same point on page 1 of this thread.
I asked before, but don't know, what happens if someone has a big , life changing stack at Hardline, or one of the urban downhill races, or any downhill race in particular?
I don’t know, but those events are likely more insurable as there is a set course that has been tested prior to the event (eg that massive canyon gap the wasn’t used for hardline a couple of years ago), rather than having riders turn up and let their imaginations run wild. Plus, no requirement for doing big tricks to win.
Josh Bender is one of the judges at Rampage, he was throwing himself off massive cliff drops years ago well before social media had become a thing and when bikes weren't anywhere near as capable as they are now. He always displayed a very lax attitude to personal safety and the scoring in Rampage these days does seem to reward risk taking over creative lines
It's a cultural issue in certain adrenalin sports where a small % of the elite have arguably a dysfunctional attitude to personal safety, but this is allowed to set the terms of events they participate in and run. Which coerces other athletes who are further towards the 'normal' end of the 'attitude to risk' spectrum to push beyond their limits.
It would be a bit like a solo rock climbing competition where you have Alex Honnold as a judge, and competitors rewarded for attempting harder and harder routes. Obviously Alex would never sign up for that, as he understands that these judgements and decisions are entirely personal and should be made entirely free of sponsor or peer pressure.
Compared to Rampage, F1 is very safe (IMHO).
Almost everything in the F1 space has been tested to comply with rules that the FIA produce and are geared towards driver and spectator safety. The crash needs to be huge, or the driver needs to be spectacularly unlucky (or both) for there to be a death (again, IMHO). The circuit is, for all intents and purposes a controlled area with known risks that can be assessed and mitigated. You win by being a good driver, having a good pit strategy and crew an, potentially, by not being overly aggressive and crashing.
Another example: I skydive. It's an extreme sport. People in it die or get life changing injuries far too often (three this season that I knew well).
I continue to skydive because I consider the risks associated with it manageable _IF_ I stick to the plan I make before each jump, if I don't do stupid things and if i land in a sensible manner. I plan around reasonable worst case (both in freefall and under canopy) and have safety equipment that I can trigger both manually or which will activate automatically if I am not able to. I invest a lot of time training for what I do in the off season so that the first jumps of the year are not alien to me and I jump equipment that, for my jump numbers, is not crazy. That is how I manage risk, but there is never a huge amount of money hanging on my performace, never the expectation to perform unless I am competing and, even then, safety comes first and my assosciation's rules reinforce the safety aspect.
Contrasting with Rampage. There is limited safety equipment, no ruleset governing safety (as I understand it) and the lack of a defined route means that the rider needs to assess the route they are making themselves. Small things can change between practice and their competition runs that are outside their knowledge until they arrive at the feature. All this is framed in a background of "need to go big or I don't get paid/win" which, to me, shifts the risk far too much the other way. Rampage is dangerous and it's being run to make RedBull money (IMHO), not as a sport.
Having said that, it would be pocket change to Red Bull anyway I guess.Do you have any idea how much lifetime care for someone would be?
It’s certainly not pocket change, even for a relatively well known brand like Red Bull.
Likely to be in the 10s of millions.
pretty sure 10s of millions is pocket change to redbull.
They pay Max Verstsappen $55m a year
Red Bull Technology (the F1 team) is run as a completely separate business concern from the mothership.
Mateschitz Jnr is a person with significant control though. Technicalities aside, I’d bet all the money comes from, and contributes to, the same pot.
Thing is Redbull aren't a little enterprising team trying to progress our hobby. They're big enough and rich enough to be held to a far higher standard of rider safety and welfare.
Though even if the riders were being paid millions, I think my problem with it is because of the judging element, given I enjoy DH MTB. In races, it's all about the rider against the clock. Risk vs reward is measured in 10ths of a second vs DNF. In Rampage riskier=showier=points, and accountability for success is with judges rather than just the rider.
It's an incredible sporting spectacle, but so is heavyweight boxing, or gladiators, but we've moved on from them too, for the most part.
I am also bothered by the problems that Red Bull and Monster etc are doing selling sugar and cafine to young people. I really dont like the sports washing of these products.
As someone who lives in Utah and who's attended rampage events, including womens event this year, ridden the area, and has close connections to athletes in the sport, including some of this year's riders, I feel reasonably well informed to say that the riders are doing this for themselves and their chosen sport. I struggle to see much coercion or manipulation of riders by red bull at the events.
That being said, I do agree that the judging creates a lot of confusion and focus on amplitude, and I'd be very surprised it wasn't reviewed ahead of future events to try to achieve a safer outcome.
p.s. Most of the STW readership is likely not going to have even seen the deserts riding in Utah, let alone tried freeride, so I completely understand that it may not make a lot of sense, and even seem irrational to even consider hucking off a dirt cliff, but if you were to head down to Virgin UT today I guarantee you you'd find people of all ages riding the old rampage lines, building new lines, encouraging each other to become better riders and celebrating when features get ticked off. The scale of the features being ridden by my 11yo are beyond what I rode in 30 years of riding all over the UK, let alone what the teenagers ride.
If anyone wants a guided trip to Utah riding just hit me up, always happy to ride!
If anyone wants a guided trip to Utah riding just hit me up, always happy to ride!
I'd love this. Never going to happen though.
I'd love to spend a few days riding the lower slopes and some of the smaller features. Just to see what I could build up to. No flips obviously.
If anyone wants a guided trip to Utah riding just hit me up, always happy to ride!
... No flips obviously.
Pretty sure you don't get to choose. Someone from Red Bull will force you at gun point to sign a disclaimer and then put you in a trebuchet and shoot you off a cliff... and then charge your family to ship you home. Or something.
feel reasonably well informed to say that the riders are doing this for themselves and their chosen sport. I struggle to see much coercion or manipulation of riders by red bull at the events.
Adding the element of competition, with rewards for the (subjective) best, is the coercion. Whilst they don’t have a gun to their heads, it’s not open to everyone so those that are invited have a level of expectation on them, plus the fact they have to get the runs done, there and then, with limited practice.
Not really comparable in scale, but (contrary to popular belief) I’ve done races and there’s been jumps outside my comfort zone, where not hitting them costs significant time on a short course so, because competition, I took a brave pill and hit that line as it was the last chance of the day to set a time. Broke 6 ribs and a collarbone. Had I just been out riding on the same trail, I likely as not wouldn’t have hit it.
At the risk of repeating my earlier comment, I felt that the riding standard this year was the highest ever - and also that the risk management from the athletes was more noticeable at the same time.
With the primary exception of Adolf, who seemed determined to roll the dice.
Godziek's crash was less serious because he was close to sticking it and Emil's wasn't fully visible but seemed a bit random.
I don't want to see the event shut down but I do hope RB are seriously pondering what they could do in terms of safety or medical coverage to improve things - and not just sticking their heads in the sand like they do about the judging every year.
"Well, every athlete has to have their own insurance. That's usually the case. It's not possible that the event insures you because if it went to a trial there would be a conflict of interest in.
So yeah, you have to have your own insurance and, and you're sort of your own insurance and to a certain degree as well. Just if you know your limits, like the more you know your limits and you have that experience, it's experience, awareness, and just your own feeling for where is my personal limit, but it's so hard, of course.
I think a lot of people got the impression that, you know, Red Bull or Monster or any of his sponsors weren't helping him due to the Road to Recovery campaign. A lot of times they're just in order to help the athlete with the other expenses that come with an injury like this. I don't want to speak. I don't know his insurance situation, but even if he had insurance that covered his hospital stay and stuff, once he's out of the hospital, he'll need his house to have, you know, adaptive things put in place. He's not going to be working for a while. There's different things.
The money that’s raised for an athlete that's injured isn't just to replace their health insurance, it's to help their quality of life. Once they're on that road to recovery, to use the name of the organization, that's kind of why that organization started in the beginning. I think it got to start in the, the moto world, but people have these big injuries and the funding helps them continue to be able to do what they want to do.
There's a lot of kind of finger pointing saying all sponsors are leaving the athletes out to dry, but that's not the case. As far as I can tell, there's a lot of work behind the scenes to ensure that Adolf has all the support from his current sponsors. It’s easy to just say, “Look at this. He didn't even have insurance. Now we have to raise money for him,” but that's that's not what happened. That money is to help him recover, and we all want to see him recover to fullest extent"
" I'm positive that he will get supported also by his personal sponsor, Monster, as well as Red Bull in some way or another. I know that from a personal experience as well. I mean, I Red Bull supported me a long time throughout my recovery, and yeah, pretty much through my life almost, I can say"
Many sports are dangerous and I take the point abovr from Utah that people would do this anyhow. People base jump anyhow but the Redbull sponsoring makes the most extreme form very visible and is presented as cool because it sells shit. We're talking about this because it's news because Redbull. I've been an adventure sports enthusiast all my life so I had a quick think about serious injuries and deaths among people close to me. In no particlar order:
MTB: Broken bones myself included, no deaths or anthing life changing.
Road cycling: limiting to fellow club members, 2 deaths, a crash and a heart attack, many broken bones.
Rallying. One death on an event I was driving in.
Autotesting: Zilch
Climbing: one death of a fellow club member I'd shared a rope with.
Ski mountaineering: four deaths of club members, all in avalanches
Wind surfing: zilch
Triathlon: One club membre had a life changing bike crash
So I agree that people willingly and enthusiatically do dangerous stuff because they enjoy it and somtimes pay the price. Redbull with its sonsorship, media coverage and imposed lines puts riders in a position where they feel obliged to attempt somthing that if no-one but their mates were around they'd dismiss with "**** that, you first".
Double post syndrome
"Well, every athlete has to have their own insurance. That's usually the case. It's not possible that the event insures you because if it went to a trial there would be a conflict of interest in.
So yeah, you have to have your own insurance and, and you're sort of your own insurance and to a certain degree as well. Just if you know your limits, like the more you know your limits and you have that experience, it's experience, awareness, and just your own feeling for where is my personal limit, but it's so hard, of course.
I think a lot of people got the impression that, you know, Red Bull or Monster or any of his sponsors weren't helping him due to the Road to Recovery campaign. A lot of times they're just in order to help the athlete with the other expenses that come with an injury like this. I don't want to speak. I don't know his insurance situation, but even if he had insurance that covered his hospital stay and stuff, once he's out of the hospital, he'll need his house to have, you know, adaptive things put in place. He's not going to be working for a while. There's different things.
The money that’s raised for an athlete that's injured isn't just to replace their health insurance, it's to help their quality of life. Once they're on that road to recovery, to use the name of the organization, that's kind of why that organization started in the beginning. I think it got to start in the, the moto world, but people have these big injuries and the funding helps them continue to be able to do what they want to do.
There's a lot of kind of finger pointing saying all sponsors are leaving the athletes out to dry, but that's not the case. As far as I can tell, there's a lot of work behind the scenes to ensure that Adolf has all the support from his current sponsors. It’s easy to just say, “Look at this. He didn't even have insurance. Now we have to raise money for him,” but that's that's not what happened. That money is to help him recover, and we all want to see him recover to fullest extent"
" I'm positive that he will get supported also by his personal sponsor, Monster, as well as Red Bull in some way or another. I know that from a personal experience as well. I mean, I Red Bull supported me a long time throughout my recovery, and yeah, pretty much through my life almost, I can say"
I hope that’s true but would like to see some form of press release from RB and his sponsors confirming it rather than an informed guess from an ex RB athlete
Hmmm, I read back through this thread last night and had a think.
The most striking thing to me is how many people seem keener to talk more about insurance and “financialising” serious injuries… That all sort of misses the point (IMO).
RB events aren’t really a core part of any given sport, they’re a bolt-on, extreme spectacle typically. Intended to be entertaining, and yes obviously a promotional tool. We have other bodies that organise all the other forms of competition within MTB, it’s worth recognising that RedBull events are mostly for the benefit of RedBull, and they get precisely what they want out of them while the unwashed masses get some entertainment.
Going back to the original article, the entertainment value is what gets damaged by events like Adolf Silva’s injury, not just the accident but the glossing over of it afterwards.
I suppose it comes down to the concept of “Risk as entertainment” and that’s inherent in most forms of entertainment, the stakes can be as low as just embarrassing yourself with Karaoke, or as high as dying in a cage fight and all points in between.
RB events have to strike a balance, zero risk and the entertainment value is gone, too much risk and you’re just watching young people throwing away their health to amuse some (cruel?) strangers.
Despite the “elf ‘n’ safety gawn maaad!” posts, nobody actually seems to be calling for Rampage to be “banned” but I do think people are right to question whether or not it’s still an entertaining spectacle in its current form, and if that is worth the physical well being of young people like Adolf Silva.
I like seeing people clear challenging moves and difficult lines, but I don’t want to see someone double flipping their mobility away to sell fizzy piss. And I certainly don’t like seeing the Austrian piss purveyors apparently editing their coverage to skirt the reality of what happens if things do go wrong.
In amongst all the stoke was there anyone there in Utah to remind participants that some risks just aren’t worth taking, especially when all you’re really doing is promoting a can of fizzy piss to impressionable children?
It’s not about money, no sum that RedBull or anyone else could conjure up will undo Adolf Silva’s injuries, the risks were never worth the rewards (IMO) I suppose that’s the nub of it. If enough people think it’s an acceptable price for the spectacle of Rampage then I suppose it doesn’t need to change…
@cookeaa nails it right there imo.
It was great to see that Adolf is at least coherent and has regained upper-body mobility, although I was quite disappointed/shocked to see how quickly he has decided to televise his recovery. Maybe he needs the money... or is it a deep-seated need to entertain or get recognition and respect? It's surely too early to decide he will "inspire" others; even if his personal drive is inspirational, his ongoing physical needs (toileting, washing, etc) are going to take some getting used to.
I hope the young fella is getting the real support that he needs to adjust to his situation (physical and mental) rather than masking it with bravado. I tried masking my life-changing situation with bravado and bollocks... it helped me for a while but I only became truly happy again after time to adjust and some excellent counselling.