I was thinking about people who take risks w/o the big publicity and thought of what some climbers do, real life and death serious stuff away from the cameras. The instinct or need is innate.
The vast majority of climbers climb in a risk managed way. Not least because if they didn’t they’d not survive being a beginner. I don’t think that the same is true in mountain biking. The “just send it, bro” mentality pervades the sport IMO.
I got the impression that the fundraising was more about all the specialist things Silva is going to need after hospital. His home will have to be modified, years of rehab and physio, etc.
I’m guessing the immediate medical stuff will be covers by either his or Redbull’s insurance. But breaking your back can take years (if ever) to recover from. Here in the UK we’re very lucky and the NHS and government will pick up a lot of the costs, but in the US and S America I think you’re pretty much on your own.
I was thinking about people who take risks w/o the big publicity and thought of what some climbers do, real life and death serious stuff away from the cameras. The instinct or need is innate.The vast majority of climbers climb in a risk managed way. Not least because if they didn’t they’d not survive being a beginner. I don’t think that the same is true in mountain biking. The “just send it, bro” mentality pervades the sport IMO.
Hmm there are some significantly large groups out there with differing interpretations of risk managment. Think of people learning to climb grit venturing onto the easier, unprotected classics+ Risk management there isn't so high, it's really the grade doing that forthem. Compare to a group of grit olød timers doing a circuit of classic solos up to about E3 (tech 5b solos). They're relying on years of training and experience to keep them out of trouble, but sometimes.... and finally a group of boulderers working there way thro' some highballs.
It's not so different
If extreme events like Rampage continue, but increased safety measures were imposed to prevent (or minimize) life changing/ending injuries, what would that look like? How would it change the event?
IMHO there is a gulf between the risks i took climbing as an amateur without audience and the modern world of clicks and sponsors.
I think Rampage is like a soloing competition. You keep soloing harder and harder roues. Until all but one person bottles it or falls.
Healing vibes to Adolf. Loved the whole contest this year. Emiles crash was gnarly as **** too. Its all omelette and eggs. All of us into extreme sport know the risks.
All of us into extreme sport know the risks.
Yeah but it's the organisers job to make it as safe as possible.
Somebody mentioned F1 in the 70s and that's a great example. Yes 250kph is always going to carry a risk and the drivers are always going to push the limits but the Motorsport world learned from their incidents and mandated fire retardant suits, the hans device, the halo, wheel teethers, puncture proof helmet visors, various types of track barriers, catch fencing, side impact structures etc.
We all want to see the big lines but Red bull need to step up and see what can be done to make it safer.
For example, Can spine protection be improved, can something like the hans device be used to prevent neck injuries, is there a better location? Etc etc
Its all omelette and eggs. All of us into extreme sport know the risks.
Agreed , but then when a company host a show based on the spectacle of people taking extreme risk to make them (the company) lots of money, you would hope they would at least have adequate insurance or pay when it goes wrong
Have RedBull even acknowledged the incidents ?
Healing vibes to Adolf.
Is this really a healing vibes moment? Healing rather implies recovery & return to normality. I don't think that's on the cards is it? This is more an 'all the best adapting to your new life' moment.
All of us into extreme sport know the risks.
To a certain extent I bow to your understanding of the mindset, as you are much closer to it than me. But you can't have it both ways.....if you know the risks and are at one with it I'm assuming he's not at all comfortable with with people putting their hands out to total strangers to fund his adapted life. I mean if he if he actually knew and thought through the risks you a ready to lay down in that bed right?
My experience of high risk takers long term outlook has been a mix of naivety, bravado and short termism. I guess that what helps you take the risks The people I've worked with that have coped best mentally with life changing injury have been endurance athletes who've had accidents oddly.
Its all omelette and eggs.
I think a much better analogy is the Ham and Eggs restaurant. Essentially the Rampage riders are committed, Red Bull is just involved....
The vast majority of climbers climb in a risk managed way.
Yes 100%. What I meant was the urge to do risky things for personal reward or reasons isn't all about the media or exposure, it's something some people just want to do.
All of us into extreme sport know the risks.
That’s not been my experience. Most people into mountain biking are in denial IME.
Let’s see how this chap feels when he’s older? I’ll bet that in five years time, when he’s forgotten, and struggling to live with the consequences of his injuries he won’t be so enthusiastic about people taking risks for clicks.
To be honest, as a professional (I presume?) in the industry, your attitude is a big part of the problem IMO.
What I meant was the urge to do risky things for personal reward or reasons isn't all about the media or exposure, it's something some people just want to do.
I'd go so far as to say that it's what motivates most people, the feeling of making personal progress against something. However lionising people for getting away with making risky choices amplifies that effect to dangerous levels IME.
Insurance? How much would the premiums be? Would anyone me prepared to under right an event like that?
Hi, professional underwriter here. 25 years experience pricing international medical insurance. The medical costs are uninsurable. To my knowledge Red Bull have zero medical insurance in place for any of their athletes. If they did, I would've been asked to quote on it at some point in my career, and I haven't because it doesn't exist as no one would ever take on the risk. I baulk at being asked to quote on footballers. There's not a chance in hell I'd quote on this kind of risk and I can't imagine anyone in the industry would.
They may have some disability insurances in place, possibly life insurance too, but definitely nothing for the medical expenses.
Red Bull could in theory self insure the medical costs and get an insurer to administer that for them, but again I've never ever seen that come up in 2+ decades of doing it for a living
I'd also add that none of the competitors will have personal insurance in place that would cover them. Professional sports and especially high risk sports are excluded as standard
when he’s forgotten
Indeed.
I'd say it goes "healing vibes" (because that's sunny and positive given the situation), "healing vibes"..........."It's been too long".........aaaaand off the radar & contact list.
It's much easier to stay in denial if that's your approach to others that have fallen off the perch.
But this is skirting around the main issue - this is understanding the mindset of Agent Pappas' "young, dumb and full of cum". We've all been there, though at a much diluted level. Then we (most of us) grew up. It's the role of big business in this that tips it from being the rite of passage of the skilful risk taker to TiRed's "Commercial coercive control" above.
I'm willing to bet that the sums wouldn't add up for them if they did?
Probably not. The only reason to get an insurer to administer the self insured plan for you is you get to take advantage of their negotiated prices with hospitals, clinical case management, shifting the costs of administration from Redbull to the insurer etc. The number of claims they're likely to have would be minimal, but the costs would be astronomical. I imagine Silva's costs have already exceeded $1 million
My experience of high risk takers long term outlook has been a mix of naivety, bravado and short termism. I guess that what helps you take the risks The people I've worked with that have coped best mentally with life changing injury have been endurance athletes who've had accidents oddly.
@convert may I ask what line of work you are in? That is a very interesting observation. Not something that’s ever crossed my mind, but it seems logical that people who are drawn towards the suffering for the long haul would cope better in these situations than people with the extreme sports kind of mindset.
I understand that no one is forcing anyone to participate, though you do need an invitation to enter, it’s insane to me that red bull, in this case, are allowed to promote and benefit from such a dangerous event without providing some form of cover for uninsured participants.
as for insurance, I can’t imagine that rampage competitors could afford the premiums. There is a concept of self insurance where a company can demonstrate that it has the resources to cover the costs of accidents. This waives any legal need for insurance. I’m pretty sure red bull could reach the threshold for self insurance, so I’m pretty sure they could underwrite the risk of rampage themselves. Like wise Coca-Cola, the people behind monster could afford to cover their sponsored riders.
What is obvious to me is that the potential cost of an accident at rampage is greater than the return on investment in the sponsorship, as such insurance isn't provided.
I wish Adolf well for the future. I had a bad accident a couple of years ago. I broke a lot of bones. Had I landed on my head, things would have been very different for everyone in my life.
Hi, professional underwriter here. 25 years experience pricing international medical insurance. The medical costs are uninsurable. To my knowledge Red Bull have zero medical insurance in place for any of their athletes. If they did, I would've been asked to quote on it at some point in my career, and I haven't because it doesn't exist as no one would ever take on the risk. I baulk at being asked to quote on footballers. There's not a chance in hell I'd quote on this kind of risk and I can't imagine anyone in the industry would.
They may have some disability insurances in place, possibly life insurance too, but definitely nothing for the medical expenses.
Red Bull could in theory self insure the medical costs and get an insurer to administer that for them, but again I've never ever seen that come up in 2+ decades of doing it for a living
I'd also add that none of the competitors will have personal insurance in place that would cover them. Professional sports and especially high risk sports are excluded as standard
Interesting to hear from someone in the industry.
That's angering, depressing, and not-surprising in equal measures 🙁
I decided not to carry on watching Rampage a few years ago as I was (sadly) anticipating someone getting seriously hurt or killed. It excited me 10+ years ago. Now it just depresses me.
Weeksy; they might have done, and in that case a statement like this wouldn’t be too tricky to issue:
“We are so upset at the injuries that Adolf suffered at the Rampage. Please be assured that we are working with all of his sponsors to ensure that his care, immediate and into the future, is well covered to allow him the space and time to concentrate on his his recovery without having to worry about his finances.”
But they haven’t…
Talking of naivety, this article from 2014 about Rampage is shocking. Using a standard travel policy to compete.... I wonder how much has changed, but I suspect not enough. Who is advising a teenage rookie on how to pick a policy.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/risk-vs-reward-contest-insurance-2014.html
Other sports try to minimise risk, whereas Rampage seems to increase risk year on year.
Redbull haven't said anything as far as I can see this far, but this week insta had redbull highlight clips of all the biggest crashes from Rampage (but not the medevac ones). They may have taken those down now. Redbull clearly don't care, and these guys and gals are just fodder for the social media machine. I have enjoyed lots of their stuff, but I will be unrolling them after this.
I appreciate you can't necessarily legislate out the youthful stupidity, but Redbull have a responsibility surely to help these guys do this in a safer environment, and survive better.
1. Who’s said Redbull haven’t sorted insurance or medical stuff?
2. Who says Silva doesn’t have any himself?
it seems everyone is going off here without actually knowing anything at all about the answers
The crowd funding suggests that if he had insurance it wasn’t enough to cover the risk
Healing vibes to Adolf. Loved the whole contest this year. Emiles crash was gnarly as **** too. Its all omelette and eggs. All of us into extreme sport know the risks.
He’s gonna need more than vibes, RedBull owe him for the rest of his life.
All I can hope/wish for is his cord isn’t severed and it’s merely compressed which may be recoverable from through time and neurological physio, as I mentioned in other rampage thread I was someone at age 19 who was completely paralysed and told from the upper chest down for a couple of months before a neurosurgeon (Tom Russell Edinburgh) gathered together a team of visiting U.S. surgeons and combined 30+hrs of reconstructive spinal surgery, pulling shards of bone from spinal cord, building metal framework round spine and fusing vertebrae along with 4months of daily rehab sorta fixed me apart from never having bowel/bladder control which meant I have a license to piss & shit anywhere like a horse.
Lying in hospital on an inflatable bed that moved side to side/up/down every 30mins to avoid bed sores, suffering absolutely ****ing hellish phantom nerve pain in lower limbs due to cord damage, having a nurse physically removing lumps of shit from my arse (bowel peristalsis didn’t work), thoughts that go through your head 24hrs day…..
The minute I saw the crash I knew it was gonna be bad so stopped watching, I hope it is recoverable as I know from personal experience what he’s going through
So according to the link posted by susepic some riders have pro insurance, that has paid out
Whilst I’m in firm agreement that red bull should pickup the tab for this, it seems some people are suggesting that the riders are somehow coerced into this by the corporations.
Is this really the case? What pressure do they face that forces them to do this stuff, perhaps they feel it’s the best thing to do for their career but I’m not sure I see the benefits. Are the sponsors really piling on the pressure? I’m not saying they are not responsible just interested to know what happens.
surely there must be a part of them that WANTS to do it?
They could say no right.
i remember seeing an interview with Gee where he said I didn’t do it for points or prizes but just the thrill of the experience.
So I wonder, if there was some kind of stipulation/commitment from Redbull that they would/must cover in full the medical bills and ongoing care costs for any Redbull athletes or participants injured in a Redbull event, how that might change the event format.........
So I wonder, if there was some kind of stipulation/commitment from Redbull that they would/must cover in full the medical bills and ongoing care costs for any Redbull athletes or participants injured in a Redbull event, how that might change the event format.........
See above. It’s not likely that they can afford to do that.
So I wonder, if there was some kind of stipulation/commitment from Redbull that they would/must cover in full the medical bills and ongoing care costs for any Redbull athletes or participants injured in a Redbull event, how that might change the event format.........
See above. It’s not likely that they can afford to do that.
If a multibillion ££ corp can't afford the medical bills, then should they be expecting the kids to afford it instead
" any Redbull athletes"
"Redbull" doing the heavy lifting there... Silva is Monster, no?
Having said that, it would be pocket change to Red Bull anyway I guess.
I struggle with all this TBH - I genuinely enjoy the skill and spectacle on show at Rampage (sometimes despite myself), and do believe that the riders understand the risk (and take it for whatever reason - personal, reputational, financial, whatever...). But do also feel that Red Bull have a big ethical responsibility to step in when things go south... And make it clear that they are doing so.
Of course if they do that, they are then potentially opening themselves to accusations of virtue signalling.
For me, carry on with the event but riders' lines need to be vetted and their 'routines' committed to with anything deemed too risky (maybe by peers?) being vetoed even if safety netting, etc. is added (no downhill skiers or audiences moan about the netting being in place AFAIK).
Having said that, it would be pocket change to Red Bull anyway I guess.Do you have any idea how much lifetime care for someone would be?
It’s certainly not pocket change, even for a relatively well known brand like Red Bull.
Likely to be in the 10s of millions.
So the entirety of the lifetime of treatment should fall on the injured rider?, whilst redbull can continue to profit from the exposure and broadcast?.
I have a very good idea what lifetime care costs, it is chump change for a company such as red bull
Pretty sure Red Bull have paid for treatment and rehab for top motorbike riders like Toby Price and Matthias Walkner in the past. Admittedly not as big injuries.
But maybe more relevant is Brook MacDonald (spinal injury at MSA 2019). Here's what he said in an interview this year:
"
Brook: I signed way back in 2011. The best part…well, Red Bull offers so much. Most people don’t know the endless support you get from them. Whether you are rehabbing an injury, they have two athlete performance centres, one in the US and one in Austria, which give you access to the best people from S&C to physio to nutritionists to doctors and what you need from start to finish, but also a place for you to go training and fine-tune things that you may lack. Along with that, you have everything to create your wildest dreams.
They are the best and have supported me through a career of ups and downs but given me everything to get to where I am today."
Who’s said Redbull haven’t sorted insurance or medical stuff?
From the PB article: “Red Bull is in direct contact and supporting Adolf and his family. This is a private matter." Brook MacDonald was sponsored by Red Bull. Other Red Bull sponsored riders (e.g. Matt Jones) have commented on Red Bull’s support after injury. A more interesting case for comparison might be Paul Basagoitia, who suffered a spinal cord injury in Rampage 2015.
Redbull looked after Dan Atherton when he broke his neck as well (although he’s another RB athlete) and that was just on his local dirt jumps out of comp.
Having said that, it would be pocket change to Red Bull anyway I guess.Do you have any idea how much lifetime care for someone would be?
It’s certainly not pocket change, even for a relatively well known brand like Red Bull.
Likely to be in the 10s of millions.
Given that redbull uk posted a pre tax profit of £55m just from uk operations. That came from a turnover of £668m so 8%. Worldwide profits are not available but if you assume an average of 5% off earnings of 11.8 billion usd that’s 580million usd profit. They can easily afford to look after Adolf all his life. In fairness monster, part of the Coke Cola group, could also contribute a substantial chunk of it as he is sponsored by them
My point is it’s not a lack of money that prevents these companies looking after their athletes
Meh.
That's about all I can muster.
Never been interested in the Rampage thing and that style of riding is so far removed from what I or anyone I know does that it simply doesn't interest me.
Surely it's over for Rampage
Are we banning every sport where there's a danger of injury now? Kneejerk nonsense.
I’m sure the media will be on full flow praising and publishing too many articles on the next pr stunt
