Anecdotally:
There's shedloads of Asian kids on bikes round here. It's not that they aren't riding, it's that they're riding differently from the MTBers. Trial bikes are hugely popular, you know the kind of thing where the top tube and the chainstay behind it is almost a straight line and the saddle is lower than the rear wheel. They* have taken over the local skate park and are busy getting big air on halfpipes, you don't see many boarders in there any more.
Of course, you could argue why aren't they mountain biking? Do they feel excluded, or are they happy that they've found their own thing?
(* - in anticipation of the Professionally Offended By Proxy turning up to point-score, by "they" here I mean trial bike riders.)
WOW Joe 😯
You went through them all....looking for just this sort of thing to throw back as an example
Not everybody Joe, but you confirm my point also, because mtb is flourishing worldwide.
What do they say in China Joe ?, that blokes not ethnic Chinese ?. Stretch out a pathetic argument.
Incidentally Joe, why haven't you referenced the Indian championships 😕
Will give that a listen as I always found his podcasts good.
There’s shedloads of Asian kids on bikes round here. It’s not that they aren’t riding, it’s that they’re riding differently from the MTBers. Trial bikes are hugely popular, you know the kind of thing where the top tube and the chainstay behind it is almost a straight line and the saddle is lower than the rear wheel. They* have taken over the local skate park and are busy getting big air on halfpipes, you don’t see many boarders in there any more.
Similar in Cardiff except it's more BMX and the Carrera Wheelie groups. Very rarely see them venture out of the skate parks or their local streets but they are out on bikes enjoying themselves.
Some here have argued that as there isn't racism within other countries MTB communitys so there isn't racism within the British MTB community. That's a fallacious argument and misconceived.
WOW Joe 😯
You went through them all….looking for just this sort of thing to throw back as an example
Not everybody Joe, but you confirm my point also, because mtb is flourishing worldwide.
What do they say in China Joe ?, that blokes not ethnic Chinese ?. Stretch out a pathetic argument.
Incidentally Joe, why haven’t you referenced the Indian championships 😕
I didn't go through them all half of them I knew and the others I just rolled over a name and saw a photo. I don't understand what two links to an African and Indian bike series does to prove there isn't any racism in cycling?
I didn't cite the Indian series because I didn't need to when half the people that have won the African one are white so totally disproves what ever point you're trying to make.
Mountain biking maybe "flourishing worldwide" but we need to look at why socially and culturally uptake of this sport is so low for BAME people and its likely because of systemic racist structures within our society. I know its an uncomfortable topic and the idea of you thinking you could have racist thoughts isn't nice but we need to recognise learn and correct them.
I don't expect you to get it, its a complex issue and I don't fully get it either. Im just trying to educate myself and try and understand other peoples experiences.
I've never noticed any racism in mountain biking. A lack of representation maybe but not racism, having said that I have seen a few non white faces in PMBA events. I can't really think of a reason for the lack of representation, maybe a cultural thing in that you are more likely to take it up if you have some mates that are into it. I suppose if you are non white then it would be easy to perceive it as a white only sport from looking at magazines etc. Incidentaly, one of my best MTBing and drinking mates is non white.
I don’t expect you to get it, its a complex issue and I don’t fully get it either. Im just trying to educate myself and try and understand other peoples experiences.
I don’t get it either, lots to learn. I understand even less those that think there is no issue, and have nothing to learn, because they “haven’t seen any problems”.
I don’t expect you to get it,
Yup, I always find the best way to engage people is to be patronising.
Mountain biking maybe “flourishing worldwide” but we need to look at why socially and culturally uptake of this sport is so low for BAME people
It's not actually a sport for the majority of people in the UK, it's a leisure activity.
Why do we 'need' to look at it in this way?
Different leisure activities attract different people at different times in their lives. Lumping all BAME people together and asking why are you not mountain biking is as insulting as asking why all white people don't go skiing.
That's a bit of a cop out. There is under representation in mountainbiking as there is in most other outdoor activities. But is that just due to conceptions and attitudes within those communities? If there is negative pressure from the majority community, well that should be addressed. I well remember a BAME biker that couldn't get served in South London. White guys would have to get the parts from the shops for him. Has that attitude completely disappeared?
I don’t expect you to get it,
Yup, I always find the best way to engage people is to be patronising.
Yup, and i always find the best way to engage people is to also misquote them too. The full quote is "I don’t expect you to get it, its a complex issue and I don’t fully get it either. Im just trying to educate myself and try and understand other peoples experiences."
cloggy
I well remember a BAME biker that couldn’t get served in South London. White guys would have to get the parts from the shops for him. Has that attitude completely disappeared?
I sincerely hope so!
why have a discussion when you can get angry at the title.
You must be new here....?
Hey,
I know people here are super-cool, and 99.9% of people I meet on the bike are too.
But.
There are a small minority of people who make it ****ing shite.
Being told there is nothing to sell in a shop, having drinks poured over, whispered "get the **** out of here you ****", having the police called for biviying somewhere out-of-sight, bike clubs...
I'll happily take any ribbing or abuse on the chin (brummie, council house boy), but words which make you question your right to exist are ... painful. So I mostly bimble about on my own or with the children and find great joy in just messing about on bikes away from other people.
We all get grief for many things (class, gender, wheel size), don't feel that speaking about one form of discrimination diminishes any others or is a personal attack on you (unless your _that_ bellend).
Mountain biking maybe “flourishing worldwide” but we need to look at why socially and culturally uptake of this sport is so low for BAME people and its likely because of systemic racist structures within our society.
how about we start saying people rather than BAME people. That pisses my friend right off - lets try and stop segregating by segregating.
Maybe some people are just not interested in it or not close to facilities or have transport or can afford it.
Whether you think mountain biking 'is racist', have a look around you and think on what it looks like. It's always looked like male, middle aged middle class and white to me, and I'm right in that demographic.
So why is that? Some great points raised on here that got me thinking more. I'm now in the US and It's been great to see more Latin and African American faces on the trails, but that has been very recent.
It's a question we'll probably never answer properly, but it is something we've all thought at some point, not due to racism, but due to the reasoning as to why certain demographics are under represented still, i remember back to the early 2000s, seeing a woman on the tracks was a rarity, now they are well represented from what i see, same with kids, lots out there, a lot of this is to do with the changes in things like trail centres, accessibility and so on, but personally, i can't get my head round why BAME is still under represented, and again, as stated earlier, that's because i just don't have the knowledge or understanding.
Cheers OP, that was really interesting and well worth a listen. Covers a lot of the points on here, some pretty thought provoking content and a positive message.
It’s not actually a sport for the majority of people in the UK, it’s a leisure activity.
Why do we ‘need’ to look at it in this way?
The women in MTB point came up a lot as well. Surely everyone here loves mtb and recognises it as a wonderful thing. Isn't it just trying to understand why some parts of society aren't involved and trying to see if that can change. Then we can sell more e-bikes to people 😉
Different leisure activities attract different people at different times in their lives. Lumping all BAME people together and asking why are you not mountain biking is as insulting as asking why all white people don’t go skiing.
Yep, there was a bit of that being ridiculed in the podcast! But also some interesting opinions about why there might be much lower levels of interest. As I say, if you have some time it's worth listening to.
but personally, i can’t get my head round why BAME is still under represented, and again, as stated earlier, that’s because i just don’t have the knowledge or understanding.
Ah, if only there was a friendly discussion on easily accessible media that could help with that 😉
It’s always looked like male, middle aged middle class and white to me, and I’m right in that demographic.
Going to have to call that out as rubbish, sorry. I see a fair mix or male, female young old moneyed and not so moneyed.
Mostly white, yes but not exclusively but mostly.
Why is that ? I don't know. Mountainbiking attracts fairly modern forward thinking folk and I don't see racism.
It's easy to say that white folk exclude others but I imagine some parts of the community can be very insular and not want to take part in something which is not culturally normal for them.
I'm in Scotland where the mix is very different to , say , the Midlands , so you would expect the sport to be mainly white. Doesn't make Scottish cyclists racist or exclusive.
Even on Zwift you don't see many black riders oddly.
On Zwift you can change your skin colour etc to preference.
No idea what the above means, pure observation.
I've always thought of biking as pretty inclusive but it's never a bad thing to question that reality.
It’s easy to say that white folk exclude others but I imagine some parts of the community can be very insular and not want to take part in something which is not culturally normal for them.
There wasn't a massive amount of talking about explicit exclusion. Which rings true for me in my experiences. Definitely a lot about what might push people away from biking or not consider it in the first place. And how (more the industry really) can engage differently with different people. MTB felt like a male sport when I started and that's definitely changed for the better. Think it's probably a similar journey.
Black people arent into biking because the myth that white men can't jump has been busted 😊.
Seriously though if mountain biking isnt of interest for whatever reason, culturally or just not cool enough then it's hardly the fault of mountain biking, nobody's putting up barriers. My biking mate is mixed race, non of his black friends and family are interested, it's a weird one and from my experience nothing to do with racism.
I don’t understand what two links to an African and Indian bike series does to prove there isn’t any racists in cycling?
Amended that for you.
Yes yes, some people are racist, we've long established that. Does not mean the sport itself is racist, that argument is completely illogical, and it appears you'd argue anything and everything has a racist element to it.
This is a predominantly white country. Is the percentage too skewed ?
So what is that percentage Joe, and how is it skewed.
Of the population, X number are white, X number are black, brown or whatever.
Then you want us to correlate that minority against what you must consider to be the average number of not cyclists, but specifically mountain bikers.
Seriously though if mountain biking isnt of interest for whatever reason, culturally or just not cool enough then it’s hardly the fault of mountain biking
You know that thing where you bang on at whoever will listen about how ace biking is? And you drag a few people in and they finally get it and it feels like you've made their world a better place?
Think it's like that. And really it's beneficial to the mtb community (again, probably most beneficial to the "business" side, but that trickles down) to be cooler and culturally relevant to more people.
love it
there is obvious under representation of non white folk at all levels in all types of cycling and here we have a bunch of white men ( mainly?) pontificating as to why!
dyna-ti
Of the population, X number are white, X number are black, brown or whatever.
Then you want us to correlate that minority against what you must consider to be the average number of not cyclists, but specifically mountain bikers
This^^! Lets face it, as mountain bikers we are in a relative minority of society as a whole. If non white mtbers are few and far between, is that not just a reflection of society in general?
Heads up to save others faffing - just listening in to the OP podcast and the discussion begins at 5min 15secs in.
My post earlier was poorly worded, to clarify - my opinion is that people should take note of Kullys post.
Let’s forget the outright abuse for a minute (which is completely unacceptable) and focus on the greyer area.....I’d feel pretty uncomfortable getting my cock out in a Japanese Onsen because I’d probably be the only white dude there. However having some slightly mental Japanese friends, I probably would.
The same applies to a lot of social situations, it’s easy to feel like an outsider and even easier to do encourage someone who is an outsider to take part with a bit of friendly encouragement and understanding. Integration does work both ways but the biggest hurdle is making someone from another culture or someone who feels that they stand out - feel comfortable in your cultural setting.
there is obvious under representation of non white folk at all levels in all types of cycling and here we have a bunch of white men ( mainly?) pontificating as to why!
If we don't pontificate about it then chances are we'll ignore it and not seek to help improve the situation if that is what is required. Debate is good.
FWIW there's a very similar discussion being held on the Bearbones forum. Not instigated by this podcast however and not just focussing on racial minorities.
This^^! Lets face it, as mountain bikers we are in a relative minority of society as a whole. If non white mtbers are few and far between, is that not just a reflection of society in general?
Basically no. Apparently 15% of the UK population are "non-white", across all the different cycling niches I participate in and follow, I honestly don't believe 15% of those taking part are people of colour. Nevermind the proportion of female participation, 51% of the UK population are female, there's no way you can claim half of all cyclists are women...
Unfortunately you can't claim it's a "reflection of wider society", something about cycling in general makes it less appealing to non-white, non-male people. It may well be that the presentation of current cycling cultures all too accurately reflects it's existing composition.
If you come from a community that historically hasn’t fared well when dealing with groups of white men, I can understand why, despite the actual activity looking fun, you might well be put off...
Scotroutes - in one way I agree but given the direction of similar topics on here in the past its just funny
Maybe some people are just not interested in it or not close to facilities or have transport or can afford it.
But that’s the reason to look into social inequality, not to dismiss it.
If the barriers to participation in anything are lack of money, lack of transport and/or lack of access, and those factors correlate with a lack of participation from any demographic, then that tells you that the demographic in question is most likely significantly disadvantaged in terms of money, mobility and/or opportunity.
And that’s where social equality—racial or otherwise—bites.
DH is (was?) massive in Japan, why no riders?
A friend of a friend dated a guy who was Japanese national DH champ three years running about 20 years ago. He did some WC races, finished around 50th place from what I remember. He said that the WC courses were much faster with much bigger jumps than what he was used to and he wasn't as physically strong as the top guys so struggled to muscle the bike around. He'd started out as an XC racer for a major brand, but switched to DH when he realized that he was more competitive at that. That doesn't mean that there aren't big, strong guys in Japan, but MTB is a niche sport so promising athletes would probably be steered towards baseball, football, or rugby by high-school coaches because that's where the money's at.
I was friends with a Muslim man and helped him buy a specialised mtb. Took him for a ride and he thought we were just going on the road.he reluctantly went offroad a bit but said he never wanted to go again. Its was something about his religion which looked down on getting muddy and mixed with dirt.being near dirt scared him.not sure exactly what so excuse my ignorance.he still rides the bike on road years later so thats good.i understand that for young asians bikes are looked down upon as a form of transport you have to ride if you haven't made and if you ride a bike you cannot afford car.this I found out after chatting to many asians.ivusedcto go riding with a black person or person of colour.he was a great rider very strong with good endurance and a great guy.really into his biking too.pretty sure he has mever experienced racism in biking.people choose to do what they are interested in and drawn towards.
Perhaps we should look at ourselves? Maybe there is just something a bit weird about a relatively small group of white males who find an attraction to riding bikes through mud and slop. Most of my white male friends and colleagues think I am stupid for doing it and I barely know any women who have even the slightest interest.
Just listened to the podcast.
Thanks for sharing it. Some interesting things in there.
For those denying racism in cycling I have one simple question when Eliot Jackson told a story at the start and said people constantly say to him "oh do you think you would be on giant if you wasn't black" - how is that not racist?!? These people are saying his colour is the only reason he is/was on Giant. Do people say hey Gwin are you only on Intense because you're white. No! There is racism in cycling fact.
i understand that for young asians bikes are looked down upon as a form of transport you have to ride if you haven’t made and if you ride a bike you cannot afford car
Asia is a very diverse place. You really can't generalize like that, it would be like assuming that Canadians are like Brazilians because they come from similar timezones.
My guess is that a lot of it is whether countries have several generations of middle-class people. Sports that require expensive equipment are limited to people who are not worried about where their next meal is coming from, but it takes several generations for sports to become well established - you need parents who are willing to put the time and effort into organizing it for their kids. Once you have an established base, participation increases exponentially with each new generation as people get their friends and friends' kids involved.
love it
there is obvious under representation of non white folk at all levels in all types of cycling and here we have a bunch of white men ( mainly?) pontificating as to why!
Totally the wrong attitude. Why ?
For a start no one is pontificating and secondly it is being discussed which surely is the aim ?
It seems like some folk a going to feel offended regardless.
Agree with brads, that's not a good attitude TJ. As a community, we absolutely should be talking about this. The podcast explores loads of the areas covered on the thread, you should listen to it.
Better than me, as I clearly missed the bit about Eliot Jackson being accused of positive discrimination becuase he was riding a Giant. That's horrible. Imagine putting in all that hard work to break down the barriers, then finding out you had to ride a ****ing Giant 🙁
Hols I meant young affluent asians that are British.
Agree with brads, that’s not a good attitude TJ. As a community, we absolutely should be talking about this. The podcast explores loads of the areas covered on the thread, you should listen to it.
But people don't want to do that. It means having a really uncomfortable conversation and making some realisations about yourself that could mean admitting that you may have an unconscious racist bias. Its the stuff talked about at the start of the podcast crossing the road when you seen a person of colour, clutching your bag or phone at that point a judgment has been made on how that person looks. To quote Gregg Popovich we need to get comfortable with the uncomfortable.
White men are exactly the people who need to talk about racism as they are the group who have the most power/position/privilege to actually improve anything within companies, society, sport.
Nobody is saying the majority of people who enjoy a bike ride are Racsits/bigots/eletists, but they are mostly white and mostly men, that is a fact that is hard to escape.
And I can't think of anyone who I've ever ridden with, who would focus on another person's race/gender/orientation rather than the fact that they're on a bicycle and that is a common experience and shared joy in life.
That's not really what was being said, more that the "Very white, very male" make up of cycling, or more widely outdoor sports in general, could well be acting as a deterrent in itself, irrespective of the inclusive, welcoming nature of these sports and their participants. All of which begs the question, how do you address that issue?
The thing that struck me as most interesting was that the main "way forwards" proposed in the podcast was more commercial than anything else.
The suggestion being that wider diversity in MTB/cycling will be driven more by outdoor sports brands/companies recognising that people of colour are an untapped market for their products, but that in order to get their hands on their money they will need to present the various niches of the sport as appealing, inclusive and reflective of something more than just a welcoming version of "white male culture"...
And they're right, that's probably the most likely route by which you drive wider participation, you basically advertise it. Nobody can really say they weren't baited into MTBs in their youth by glossy mags presenting exciting outdoor adventures and shiny, wheeled toys (well I can't anyway) plus a bit of peer pressure...
These days it's more widespread and directly accessible, a few Insta/facebook posts and a linked website and you've got yourself a campaign, sustain that for long enough and the world does change to mirror what you're selling (unless you're sick bikes perhaps?).
and If CV19 has proven anything to the bicycle industry it's that uptake by new groups can be driven by more than just bling and wealth signalling (noting that SBC have been pushing some of their blingiest bikes ever, quite hard this last couple of weeks).
Nobody is saying the majority of people who enjoy a bike ride are Racsits/bigots/eletists, but they are mostly white and mostly men, that is a fact that is hard to escape.
True, but it does not prove or even suggest that the reason most bikers are white men is the reason why there are not more black and asian people doing it. Why do we think that the representation in biking or anything should reflect society? We live in a multi cultural society and some elements of that choose to and prefer to stay within their own cultural groups. that's not the fault of white men. I'm all for promoting cycling to everyone, promoting the mental and physical benefits of it, but you can take a horse to water but it wont necessarily want to drink. Plenty of young British Asians kicking about Cannock Chase at weekends so no evidence of real barriers to entry. OK they're not keen riders, just a bunch of kids having fun on bikes, so all good in my book.
Looking at Black people in particular only 3% of the UK population are black and 97% of that 3% live in London. Why would you attribute the rarity of black cyclists outside of London to racism? It's ridiculous.
Asia is a very diverse place. You really can’t generalize like that, i
Not sure that is true. There is alot of cultural commonality across Asia, its not that diverse especially SE Asia. For example they are all very ambitious and association with cycling is that it is a form of transport for poor people so most wont be seen dead on a bike. Especially those from the poorer end of society. Those with money will only be seen on a £10k super bike again as much of a statement of their success and status. Also due to their drive and ambition they don't value recreational time as much as us westerners do...they want to be working far more hours and have less time to commit to frivolous activities that are not going to further their careers. Also some are very family orientated, especially Indians and ****stani's, and commit far more time to being with their families than us westerners do, so have less time to spend half a day a week or more messing about with bikes.
I think its far more complicated and in depth that a few racists bandying around a few racist jibes and comments.
Also women make up 50% of our population so are massively underrepresented in cycling. Does that mean us male white bikers are sexist too? I'd like to see someone tell my wife she shouldn't be riding a bike if she was inclined to do so.
