I had an interesting board meeting last night where diversity in cycling was discussed in depth.
In Scotland, 96% of people are White. So you are looking at a tiny part of the population to start with.
Devide that by the percentage of people who might want to mountain bike, you are looking at a very small amount of mtbers who might not be white in Scotland. The lack of black people in the sport in scotland isnt due to racism or lack of diversity, it is just numbers. And we all know the best mtbers come from Scotland, right????
This is obviously very different to other parts of the uk and I would presume any non white people looking to mtb might face cultural barriers to some extent.
One of the women who worked there who was of ****stani origin found all the campaigns to get BAME people in to the countryside hilarious
I have the same experience. A colleague is of ****stani origin. He does ride bikes, road & mtb. Before the lock down we used to do a company ride on occasion. He always says to me that his family cannot see the worth in it and he should spend is time with his family.
Agree with brads, that’s not a good attitude TJ. As a community, we absolutely should be talking about this.
Hmmmmm
should have made my point clearer
I find discussions on here about race and gender highly amusing for two reasons - 1) with a mainly white and male demographic the majority of us have no idea what it is even the best intentioned and 2) a significant part of the membership simply refuse to aknowledge anything can be wrong because they are "colour blind"
I know enough to know that with my incredibly limited experience of racism that I do not know enough to make a significant contribution to the debate and many of the contributions are laughable in their ignorance
Not that we should not discuss it but that discussions on here are laughable in their ignorance. On a previous thread about racism we had the spectacle of someone who has experienced racism having their experiences belittled and being told they are wrong
I'm not sure what it is about road cycling and MTB but BMX has lots of diversity within it that I see, BLM led to some stories of some people within the industry being racist and they were dropped by their brands.
As someone that BMX'd through my teens thru to my thirties, only picking up road cycling for commuting in my late twenties and MTB when I turned 30. I didn't see the appeal of either when I was younger or understand the cost to enter either. BMX was a cheap sport to get into, with lots of places to ride straight outside the front door, I think the same about the explosion of scooter rats, its a sport with a really cheap entry point and lots of places to do it.
I know enough to know that with my incredibly limited experience of racism that I do not know enough to make a significant contribution to the debate and many of the contributions are laughable in their ignorance
So point out the ignorance in a constructive way, that's how we learn (assuming it's simple ignorance, not active negativity). Don't call it laughable etc. If people are wary of the topic because of your attitude or being called out as ignorant, you're not helping.
A lot of comments seem to indicate that those who have the most to say here are also the ones who didn’t listen to the podcast? Or decided to listen and instead conflate the issues discussed/ignore the podcast to instead place strawmen to poke at here?
I’d suggest this to be one of the main problems with almost any discussion in these times. The March Of The Strawmen. Shall they ever be seated/listen long enough to turn the tide?
https://www.artsy.net/artwork/david-hockney-a-room-full-of-straw-2
I'll catch up with the podcast at the weekend.
Been keeping tabs on the thread out of interest as I've got afro-Caribbean heritage.
All the lads I ride with are all white any strangely enough it was me that got most of them into biking. We do local ish events such as boltby bash, ard rock and pmba and it is surprising at how little representation there is from the BAME community. I do think it's on the up but the growth is very small.
Thanks for the link OP, I'll try and listen when I have an opportunity. In Geography / Earth science we get far lower participation / applications from BAME students than proportional and that is a problem if we truly want a representative voice when making decisions that affect all of us. It has been useful listening to Mya-Rose Craig amongst others in the birding / conservation world about different barriers to participation. But also I am acutely aware it is also not our (white British) place to assert our cultural views about the outdoors - that would be imperialist. So I like Mya's selling point that getting into nature can be great for your mental health and enabling people to discover what is on their doorsteps as much as in rural areas. And at the same time, enlightening those of us who do participate in outdoor activities that some people do sometimes have racist (very rarely individual, structural) encounters and through a better awareness we are more likely to call it out and ensure it doesn't keep happening - whether that be micro-aggressions, well-meaning acts that are actually racist (e.g. patronising someone) or more structural issues like how Police deal with situations that arise from a BAME person being in a predominantly White environment.
Going to have to call that out as rubbish, sorry. I see a fair mix or male, female young old moneyed and not so moneyed.
Mostly white, yes but not exclusively but mostly.
Rubbish? I'd like to hear your idea of a 'fair mix'. Look at who writes the magazines, who presents the YouTube channels. The vast majority of riders are white and male. I didn't say they are racist, but just to look at ourselves and think about it. I'm not accusing all us white menfolk of racism, just that we need to see ourselves in context.
Look at who writes the magazines, who presents the YouTube channels. The vast majority of riders are white and male.
But isn't there a lot more whites in Europe than any others ? Therefore it's not a massive shock, just simple numbers.
As i said earlier, if i go to Swinley or FoD this weekend, i'll be amazed if i see 1 person who's none white on the trails... Is that because of racism ? or just that other ethnic groups simply ride a lot less.
If we are using representation / participation to judge racism in sport it is fair to say the NBA is pretty racist, ageist and heightist.
This my friends, is an Outrage 😂
My view is hopefully we still live in a capitalist society were the desire / need to sell bikes, energy drink and streaming sport will far outweigh the desire / want to be racist for anyone that matters.
who presents the YouTube channels. The vast majority of riders are white and male. I didn’t say they are racist, but just to look at ourselves and think about it.
I have thought about it and got stuck at what exactly is stopping anyone setting up YouTube channel about bikes if they want to? And why does race make any difference to anyone’s ability to set one up? You need a camera and a laptop and the ability to make something people want to watch
In answer to weeksy the point is why do they ride less? How much is internal and how much is eternal pressure? As a minority absorbs much of the culture around it, for better or worse, one would expect differences in leisure behaviour to diminish. However the only obvious BAME member who has contributed to this thread has pointed out that they were and are subject to at least covert racism. Racism in some parts of the country is still pretty strong. I have friends from clubs I used to belong to who are by their own admission racist. They know my view so we avoid that subject, or at least don't fall out over it as there is no way I could change their mindset. That's not to say they would behave differently but they've told me how they feel.
Hmmmmm
should have made my point clearer
I find discussions on here about race and gender highly amusing for two reasons – 1) with a mainly white and male demographic the majority of us have no idea what it is even the best intentioned and 2) a significant part of the membership simply refuse to aknowledge
,,,,,,,,Lots of other stuff
Well in that case I'll not bother.
I don't know any black folk but they obviously don't like bikes.
Better ?
Rubbish? I’d like to hear your idea of a ‘fair mix’.
Glentress on a Saturday.
That was a really good listen that… recommended. Touches on a lot of the topics and ideas mooted in this thread (presumably by people who haven’t listened to it yet). Well worth checking out. In fact, worth flagging up with a news story on the non-forum part of this site.
If we are using representation / participation to judge racism in sport it is fair to say the NBA is pretty racist, ageist and heightist.
Two things, Firstly you need to reframe the context of racism and see it more as something thats structural / oppressive aka systemic racism. Secondly white people account for about 20% of the league I can bet in professional cycling you wouldn't see the same stat but for non white cyclists.
At the risk of repeating myself to about 10 people upthread, have a listen to the podcast. It is pretty long but worthwhile. It will affirm some of your points, challenge others and answer some of your questions.
I know enough to know that with my incredibly limited experience of racism that I do not know enough to make a significant contribution to the debate and many of the contributions are laughable in their ignorance
But sadly, TJ, you've made a negative contribution instead. You could have said "listen to the podcast, it adds to the discussion" instead of laughing at people. I do get what you mean, about not being able to properly understand racism or sexism from my privileged position. But being a part of the debate I think can help - even if it makes you examine the polar opposite it can be beneficial.
That was well worth a listen.
A good podcast. I listened during the stressed part of my day but it did make me want to go back a check out a couple of points again.
and I barely know any women who have even the slightest interest.
No no, this is the racism thread. For sexism you'll have to start one of your own 😉
Fair few Malaysian blokes down my way who MTB. Think they mostly picked up in the old country, as quite big sport out there. Good lads. Great food. All seem to ride Capras!
@TheBrick Thanks for posting this. I don't even know who Eliot Jackson and Phil Young are but this is an interesting podcast. Particularly what Phil Young has to say about growing up black in London and taking part in sport and recreation. It's also an education to read the replies to this post - in more ways than one.
What do the posts on here tell you ?
So there about 1.85 million Black people on the UK of which 1.09 million live on London.
Roughly 1.3 million people ride there bikes of road on a regular bases in the UK or roughly 1.94% of the population. So if we say that a similar percentage of Black people would be into mountain biking (excluding the high number of people who live in a urban environment) that gives you a participation level of roughly 35,890.
This obviously does not account for other minority groups but when you take numbers into account it is very little wonder that a minority sport has a small participation from a minority group.
Having said that I live in the middle of nowhere and often see Asian mtbers out and about and think that anyone wanting to get out in the fresh air is a great thing.
The comments on the STW facebook post about this podcast are quite spectacularly grim
The comments on the STW facebook post about this podcast are quite spectacularly grim
I don't normally look at the STW FB links (or the replies). Is it common for such a large number to be from the US? I don't think there's such a high proportion actually use the forum.
The comments on the STW facebook post about this podcast are quite spectacularly grim
One the plus side, a lot were posting to say they were unfollowing...
Is it common for such a large number to be from the US?
Yeah, with the VAST majority not knowing/caring it’s a UK publication
I don’t normally look at the STW FB links (or the replies). Is it common for such a large number to be from the US? I don’t think there’s such a high proportion actually use the forum.
FB is an absolute cesspool of society at times. I binned it off due to the amount of idiots on it, Twitter is basically the same.
Hi. Genuine "ethnic minority" lady mountain biker here. Been biking on and off since mid-2000s.
I have a lot of thoughts I'd like to share about this topic. I realise this thread is old, but hoping this forum works like they used to 20 years ago and my comment will bump it up to the top?
Anyway it's been fascinating reading your discussion. But here are some other reasons why you're unlikely to see non-white people on your trails (these are all from a personal perspective but can apply to other cultures):
-In many immigrant cultures, riding a bike is considered embarrassing. It's something you do when you're poor and can't afford a car. Just one generation back in many cases, our parents were living in homes without electricity or running water, so they have a complicated relationship with status and money and being seen to be of a lower status. Similar thing with camping - it's too similar to being a hobo.
-In some cultures, it's absolutely forbidden for women to even ride a bicycle in the first place. This happened to my mum. You can imagine the bollocking I got from her when I started cycling to work in London.
-For many 1st generation immigrant families they're so busy just trying to fit in, learn the language, work and bring up family, or cope with war trauma, that they don't have time for hobbies or holidays. From personal experience we may have had the odd day trip to the beach, but overnight stays were non-existent. I'm not even sure the concept of travelling far away for leisure is a "thing" in some cultures. Put it this way, I had to have a bunch of middle class white girls explain to me what the word "holiday" meant when I started secondary school. I'd never heard the word before.
-Yes most of us live in cities. You can still ride a bike in a city, but that doesn't automatically mean you'll make the connection to riding in nature. I used to hang around with people who did dirt jumping, and yet none of them knew that trail riding existed because we were so focused on the urban environment and couldn't afford to own a car in the city. So travelling out wasn't even on the radar for a long time.
-As they talked about in the podcast, us city kids don't really always feel comfortable going into the countryside. I was lucky because my school took me on a few field trips, one to Wales and one to the Lake District. My siblings went to a different school and didn't leave the city.
-Many non-western cultures focus heavily on family cohesion, and they have BIG families. Women especially, since they are often the primary caregivers to young and elderly may feel squeezed for free time. Families are very large and it's harder to carve out a day to themselves to travel to a mountain. Family will expect you to spend time with them over going out with friends.
-Academics are a priority over sports. Of course you can have both, but this was not an option in my experience. I was encouraged to be studious and get good grades so I could have a stable career and not be poor. The idea of doing extra-curricular sports seemed very foreign to me.
-Yes sometimes the stares you get are a bit much and can be unnerving. I'll never forget the aggressive stares me and my black friend got when we went for a casual walk around Epsom. Bloody Epsom, not even the countryside, just mild mannered suburbia! I don't get the stares so much because it's not obvious I'm not white from a distance. My darker skinned friends don't have this luxury.
-And last but not least yes, sometimes there is overt racism when you're on your bike. But it is mostly rare. I have had a racial slur thrown at me, but it was only once in several years of riding. Everyone will have had different experiences with regard to overt racism. I'm not going to say it doesn't exist, but experiences vary wildly from person to person.
A lot of these cultural factors are focused on south asian, middle eastern, more muslim-based cultures. I think asian is the largest non-white ethnic group in the UK, so maybe these factors account for a lot more than people realise. But in short, it's complicated, but hopefully I've shed a bit of light on things.
Interesting insight, thanks for posting ^^ and welcome to the forum
Out of interest, how did you find the thread?
Thanks for taking the time to write your experience(s) and pov.
But in short, it’s complicated
I'd agree with that. As with most things, the variation form one person to the other be massive but there are common threads (and your post helps to find some of them). Denial that people experience difficulty, racism, unease or unrepresented is the big problem imo. This is denying peoples experiences and effectively calling them a liar to situation or feeling they know they have gone though. Which is pretty patronising. Anyway just my opinion and its ok to disagree.
edit: clarity.
molgrops - I googled "diversity in mountain biking" (or something to that effect) because I was intrigued by the topic. This forum tends to show up in a lot of google search results.
Out of interest, how did you find the thread?
Yeah man, curios too!
TheBrick - I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that I am suggesting people are lying about having experienced racism?
edit: I saw you edited your comment, I understand what you're getting at now. Wasn't clear before.
Nope. That's more in reference to the rest of the thread. There are many that deny that there is a problem because the have a mate call who is black / Asian / minority of choice and ride a bike bla bla bla so there can't be an issue. That I take real issue with as peoples experiences are varied and to deny others experience because of another experience is ridiculous..
My point was that you POV is good to add another layer, another perspective and may hopefully allow people so see some of the underlying trends. Not that all the issues you speak of apply to all people all of the time. There is no one voice nor should there be, it would be impossible to be, but hearing more voices more pov is important (IMO) to helping people to see where issues can and do exist and maybe things improved. I want to hear more opinions.
I don't think standing up (even in a virtual world) and sharing experiences is always easy but its good to hear.
Sorry a bit difficult to fully write down my pov / opinion.
I know of a fairly well known outdoor clothing brand that recently used BAME models in their facebook ad campaigns and the racist abuse they got was so bad they were taken off facebook. Yup, facebook penalised the brand not the racist ****ers posting their vile abuse.
Made me worry for the outdoor sector given the ads would have been targetting outdoor folk.
A bit of a tangent to this. I used to see more people of South Asian origin in the gym than out running or biking. But since lockdown I think many have taken to the streets (along with everyone else from the gym!) which is a good thing, and I hope it stays. My Indian neighbours were both gym goers, but I saw them both heading off up the hill on road bikes yesterday. At a decent clip too.
Not that all the issues you speak of apply to all people all of the time. There is no one voice nor should there be
Naturally. We're not a monolith, all cultures are different. Just as women are not a monolith with universal experiences and perspective. I offered a few thoughts, but I am well aware they're not universal.
I'm an outdoorsy type but i'd gladly admin that in general outdoorsy types are a bit at the back of the queue when it comes to progressive thinking.
A better way to look at the issue is not just as racism but as inclusivity. So rather than say "its xxxx fault they are not joining in?" try "what needs to happen so that others want to join in?"
Availability and promotion of role models is a good place to start.
I offered a few thoughts,
That's what we need more diverse voices. Thank you.
Naturally. We’re not a monolith, all cultures are different.
A friend's wife is Black and was therefore automatically added to the 'BAME' group at work. She then pointed out that there are 50+ countries alone in Africa, all of who have different cultures etc before you add in the ME and assuming they were all the 'same' just because they donn't have white skin was a bit insulting. Fair point really....
Excellent to see this resurrected with such a well written insight. Thanks - and welcome to the forum.
I’m an outdoorsy type but i’d gladly admin that in general outdoorsy types are a bit at the back of the queue when it comes to progressive thinking.
Talking of not being a monolith....
I would disagree with that statement. The outdoorsy types I know are, generally speaking, more progressive and laid back than those who aren't.
That is the people who genuinely enjoy the outdoors without wanting to 'own' it for themselves...
🤷♂️
