[Closed] Putting a disclaimer on a casual ride/meet advice?

hows about..

"More than happy to show people round, but its at your OWN RISK. You should be prepared for a day in the hills with all the food and spares you think you will need."

By not riding with people who can't understand 'common sense'. Easy.

No need for a disclaimer. Utterly ridiculous idea.

Just don't 'guide'/ You need to be responsible for your own actions.

Can you exempt yourself from the law by a disclaimer ?

Christ, have we really sunk so low as to worry about this?

I don't guide i get followed off road, almost call it being stalked.

According to some parties you can exempt yourself from death with a disclaimer. We have been asked to get marshalls to sign a disclaimer stating that they are in good health to perform their duties. Not sure if you can sue from beyond the grave anyway - but seemed less hassle to go along with it than to explain the metaphysical issues. I think of it as the Douglas Adams clause.

"I am Hora, nuff said" should put most people off.

Seriously, if you offer a disclaimer you may actually be setting yourself up for being sued! Make no statements or promises and the ambulance chasers have less to go on. And never accept money or reward. And never offer to lead! Putting a route together and asking if like minded people want to join is a lot different from offering to lead a ride.

Or just get sued - it'd be a larf.

How about getting anyone coming to just 'ask if they can follow you'?

Or

Make it clear that you are not a guide and don't perport to be one and anyone following you do so at there own risk as you don't really know what you are doing or the way...

surely everyone on here knows how to ride a bike ?

[surely everyone on here knows how to ride a bike ? ]

Yes but theres always the chance that somebody turns up on a Tesco bike, wearing jeans and flipflops.

Its a case that you're not guiding or leading.

You're going for a ride, and if anyone wants to tag along thats fine. Everyone should be able to take care of themselves and ride within there limits.

If you were to get somebody to sign something, thats going to open you up to all kinds of problems.

Whatever you do I strongly suspect that there will be some smarmy-pin-striped-well-educated-ammoral-lawyer/Queen's Council-type-git waiting to try it on against you.

remember...........The British legal system is one of checks and balances...... lawyers get large "cheques" which go into their bank "balances".

Ta, its probably safe to say there is no guide/just different people saying 'we think its this way next?'.

The lad who pulled a wheelie in Llandegla carpark- fell off backwards and attempted to sued One Planet for one?

Folk will try anything. Even if its their own fault.

The group I ride with put this at the bottom of emails:

Please note that the organisers of these rides take every care to make the rides as safe and enjoyable as possible but by joining our informal group you are accepting that you ride at your own risk. The organisers are all members of the CTC, the benefits of which are many and include third party accident insurance. We would appreciate if you would either become a member or ensure that you have suitable insurance in place. You can find out more about joining the CTC here

If you wish to unsubscribe from these emails please reply by replacing the subject line with the words "If you keep sending me these unwanted emails I will cycle round and punch your lights out!"

Seemed friendly and reasonable to me when I read it. The CTC bit has double benfit too, for yoursef and the cycling community.

This insurance/blame culture seems to be at its worst in 1st world developed countries, here and the States spring to mind.

Go to china, africa, india etc and the attitude of public and the governemnt is very much use your common sense. If you fall off a cliff, well its cliff innit? trip over on the pavement; pick yer feet up! and so on. I have travelled in these places over the years so do have first hand experience too.

Rant over now, off to refill the wine glass... 😛

You cannot opt out of negligence, Disclaimers are a waste of time..

Two things matter. Do you have a duty of care and were you negligent.

If you are worried about his then go and read up on it but basically if you act as anyone would in that situation then you are fine no matter what happens. If you claim expertise then your duty of care is higher.

So don't claim expertise and don't be stupid and you are fine.

After leading 30 odd riders around some arduous trails in the Lakes the other week this predicament also entered my mind,Talking to a local mtb training centre they advised its much better to get sued and be a qualified guide, than have no qualification (get sued) and take the "unresponsible" kind of approach.

They also said anyone that any individual that[b]leads a group[/b] is

taking on a responsibility

But then he would say that wouldent he? 🙄

GaVgAs so the approach is- 'there is no one guiding this ride'. We all meet, and ride the route that we all agreed online? 😉

Gavgas - if you have a qualification you have a higher duty of care thus your conduct has to be of a higher standard.

There is no chance of a layperson gettig sued for leading a ride sucessfully unless they do something obviously stupid.

How does it stand of no money changes hands? no one is paying for a level of service? If the emails outline the technicality of the ride and state 'at your own risk' then that should suffice. It works at drive through car washes 'dont get out of the car', car parks 'Cars left at owners risk' and so on.

Responsibility to join the group is at the riders discetion, not the decent person who has gone the effort to sort out a good loop with parking etc.

Put a disclaimer on by all means, that is the way of the world today. Beyond that, people have to think for themselves.

they do something obviously stupid.

and thats where the fun starts!

1 No up to date first aid kit

2 No risk assesment (How can the ability of the riders be judged or measured?)

3 What can be called a safe route? given that lots of riders are new to the area?

4 What happens if were caught somewhere "off piste"....lol or theres an accident.

4 Is 30 odd riders in a group reasonable? on saftey grounds.

the list goes on and on,

Incidentally i had three sweepers on the day,one with a first aid kit,I carry a bothy shelter and have a bit of local knowledge and hopefully common sense!! 🙄

Gavgas - thats a load of Pish. You are not a professional acting as a guide therefore professing to have that skill. You are showing someone the route. You need only to do want any person in your position would do.

You need to go an have a look at the law on this not make up overexcited pish in a daily wail style.

Disclaimers are a total waste of time. You cannot contract out of negligence and you can only be sued if you are negligent and have a duty of care.

Google Negligence duty of care for a lot of good info.

For some discussion on this
www.sport.ox.ac.uk/sports-federation/safety/duty-of-care.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_duty_in_English_law

In law you can't indemnify against death or personal injury, so any disclaimer to such effect is meaningless.

That said, to be held responsible you would have to be shown to owe a duty of care and to be in breach of that duty. In simple language if you don't do something stupid you'll be OK. If you take a group of 10 year olds across a 30 mile moor in blizzard conditions and they die you'll be stuffed. If you take a group having asked them their capabilities and the ride is reasonably within that then no probs.

Chris

Hora - I think the basic risk is as follows:-

If you offer to lead a ride, and people kill you, then it's understandable and you cannot sue.

tj

Well put it this way,Cyclewise (Rich and Craig) at whinllater are only too aware of people willing to sue individuals for large payouts, it seems its more common than I thought.

It made me think pretty hard at the vagueness of it all,As Chris e says you take on a "duty of care" and I would rather be able to provide a certificate of competancy/qualification to proove this than not have any ammo at all! 😕

DrRS****. It is virtually impossible to kill me. I am Connor MacHora of the clan MacHora.

Hora - I've led loads of rides, including ones promoted on here. Maybe I'm naive but the day I start worrying about legal stuff, will be a very sad day indeed.

I treat people as adults and expect them to behave like it too. Everyone is responsible for themselves.

OK, as an example, in January last year 50 people turned up for a ride at Swinley Forest that I had advertised on here. Temperature was minus 7 degrees. I expected people to dress accordingly and they did. I did not think for one moment I could be sued for inducing hypothermia.

We need to make a stand against this sort of PC thinking otherwise nobody will take it upon themselves to do anything.

End of rant-ette 🙄

Gav. Please read up on this stuff. You are a long long way from the mark.

The wiki link explains it well

LOL Hora - so you wear a skirt and go out with a girl called Brenda.

Reminds me of an old post - Highlander is GAY!

I do realise you're indestructibility though Hora - you don't ride fast enough to die.....

I do realise you're indestructibility though Hora - you don't ride fast enough to die.....

Aye. There can be only one hora

Thank God!

Hmmm, its true you cannot disclaim against negligence, but as said above if someone is seriously hurt or killed for whatever reason if you are shown to have a duty of care it does leave you exposed to the scrutiny of the law.

There nothing to be lost by making it very plain that it is not a led ride and that anyone joining should be capable of riding the ride that is planned and they are responsible for themselves.

TJ - think you've gone off on a tangent there with your wiki link. (also dont believe what you read on wiki, most of the stuff is wrong)

Negligence and Duty of Care are two seperate things.

Negligence is where you did something you know you shouldn't have. Guide/lead somewhere you knew was dangerous.

Duty of care just means that you acted in a way that the average person would have done. If you guide/lead somebody down a route that you and many oher people have done in your peer group thats fine.

I can see why people leading rides are a bit cautious, but i hope that the organised rides dont stop. I've ridden some amazing stuff, and met some great people on these rides.

I'll lead one myself, when i can find a good route.

Why don't the outraged do something useful like get a qualification? It isn't hard, it doesn't take long and it doesn't cost very much. You'll all rather spend money on bits etc and 'lead' a ride - but if asked to actually taking some responsibility for your actions and you all run mile.

Ride the ragged edge of the law and risk that legal action, or get a qualification - put up or shut up.

Having a qualification doesn't stop someone trying to sue you. In fact, it makes it more likely - and it's more likely to be successful.

ToolTall, that's a bit harsh.

I am happy to take responsibility to lead a ride. Done it loads of times in the UK and the Alps where I have worked as a guide.

BUT - I now won't take the responsibility for being sued by some ambulance chaser. It's different.

I've patched peoples wounds, fixed peoples bikes and carried peoples kit when they've bonked. But I have, as yet, managed to avoid being sued.

I'm just a guy who rides, who is happy for others to come and enjoy a day with. I don't need hassles more than that.

As for qualifications - I don't agree with (m)any of them. They are self appointed, self certifications, that mean little in the real world. It's one of the reasons why it's so hard to work as a guide in the Alps now.

Experience and temprement are hard to qualify - but are, IMO, the most important parts of life.....

And besides - as I said above - a qualification is just something the lawyers would use against you.....

Chew

Duty of care just means that you acted in a way that the average person would have done. If you guide/lead somebody down a route that you and many oher people have done in your peer group thats fine

That is just wrong. a duty of care is the responsibility have you to others. You are getting very muddled up.

I agree with the ambulance chasers and have also helped out along the years. However, the discipline that goes with a qualification is no bad thing (if decent of course). However, the insurance I get for my annual membership renewal is the comfort.

I just phrased it wrong.

Yes duty of care is the responsibility you have to others, but as long as you act in a way that anyone else would then you have no liability.

I'm with TJ on this as long as you are sensible and make sure everyone knows what they're getting into and you use your common sense then you've got nothing to worry about. Do you worry about it when you organise a ride with your mates and one of them brings a friend along who you don't know?

GaVgAs - Member
Well put it this way,Cyclewise (Rich and Craig) at whinllater are only too aware of people willing to sue individuals for large payouts, it seems its more common than I thought.

That might be the case but how many of them actually won? I have friends in the climbing industry and they've been sued but it's always been thrown out as soon as it reaches the judge as they've never been negligent but that never stopped the money grabbers trying it on in the hope it would be settled out of court.

Do you know of any instance where someone on a group ride has been successfully sued? I'm pretty sure people have had accidents on them.

Yup - thats a very simplified view but about right - and what I said earlier

It's all gash. I've been offered a job again this year as a guide in the Alps but I won't take it for two reasons:-

A: I earn more money in my other job
B: I don't want to get sued for doing something I enjoy and hoping I've instilled that enjoyment in others.

I did casual (unpaid) guiding work in the Alps last year and that is all. No commitment and no risk. I let the client ride ahead of me at all times so I can't be responsible for leading them into trouble. Everyone I rode with enjoyed their time (and it's not me blowing my trumpet - we just had a good time!).

I'd like to think (hope) that most of the people on here are not ambulance chasers. But - their families might be. And I guess my worst fear is being stood in some Court being grilled by a tearful wife and hateful kids as to why I took Mr X down a slope he couldn't ride.

Accidents are accidents, or at least they were until the American legal system was invented.....

There're lots of scare stories around about being sued. It's strange that people think getting a guiding "qualification" would make you less likely to be sued, as that's the opposite to what people think about getting a first aid qualification.

Provided you do what's reasonable for someone with your experience and qualifications, you're fine. As it was explained on the first aid course I took, if you try to perform a tracheotomy on someone using a biro, you'll get sued; do what you were trained to do and you won't.

Hmmm, its true you cannot disclaim against negligence, but as said above if someone is seriously hurt or killed for whatever reason if you are shown to have a duty of care it does leave you exposed to the scrutiny of the law.

Well said scotabroad,Thats what I was trying to point out to TJ 😉

You cannot opt out of negligence

Not quite true. IIRC the law is that disclaimers/agreements can have no effect as regards personal injury/death arising from negligence.

Hmmm, its true you cannot disclaim against negligence, but as said above if someone is seriously hurt or killed for whatever reason if you are shown to have a duty of care it does leave you exposed to the scrutiny of the law.

As long as your sensible you'll be alright.