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nickc
thicker than oil, thinner than custardI feel this is how we should measure viscosity from now on
Carefull now! This could lead to a debate on how thick custard should be. Personally I like it thin, OH likes it thick.....ooer missus!...........I feel you should reconsider..
Thinner than custard which is exactly as thick as my custard
@Northwind Please.....this isn't the sort of place for that sort of talk!
If you can’t slice it, it’s too thin.
Custard, not Putoline obvs.
Briefly rotate bowl 90 degrees so it is vertical, custard remains in bowl = appropriately thick, custard now on floor = too thin 👍
CBA looking back through thread.
Is there any visible wax on chain after it's been dunked in the putoline. Does it go black after a while or just a regular wipe down clear the chain.
Tempted to dabble for new rainbow chain in the AXS groupset bought.
There's visible wax even after a wipedown. It's sticky stuff!
So Bernard's response to my question as to whether 70c was definitely correct....
Probably a little bit higher temperature, but I thought not really more, but you can easy try it. I am sure it not 100 degrees, normally waxes will be fluid around the mentioned temperature.
Regards and have a nice weekend.
Bernard
I'm going to try testing the temp again.....
TBH his answer isn't exactly brimming with the confidence of expertise.
My down gear changes on a putoline setup seem to be really sluggish when it's down near freezing. Is it possible the wax is too sticky at low temperatures or just all in my head?
(XT mech with serviced clutch and new inner and outer cable)
Quite plausible
I've noticed my road bike drivetrain feels 'heavy' with the Putoline drivetrain, but only in the stand, still haven't figured it out.
The wheel freewheels for ever, the cranks spin freely in the BB, pedals spin freely, jockey wheels lubed, it's really weird.
XT mech with serviced clutch and new inner and outer cable
Have you checked shifting with the clutch off? I reduced the tension on my GRX clutch and the shifting improved.
If the temp is too low, the layer of wax that melts will insulate the remaining wax. You'd need to agitate the bulk wax or turn the temperature up.
There's quite a bit more excess on the chain after the first ride after frying at a lower temp - as expected. But the whole thing is greasy and clearly very waterproof even after a wet ride. So I'm expecting it to last loads longer. I've wiped the outside down and it's not overly messy - and the rest of the drivetrain (cassette, jockey wheels and chainring) are still clean so despite this it's still an improvement on normal wet lube.
Interestingly, my Sram chain is a lot shinier and cleaner looking than the Shimano one. It's possible that the Shimano one is a duller finish or the outer plates have rusted slightly.
So I wonder how often you would expect it to last on a motorbike chain? I can't imagine having to reapply it every 500 miles or so is going to be appealing to most/all motorbike riders so perhaps the lower temp keeps it really thick on the chain. Possibly too thick for cyclists though...
I've ordered a thermometer so I am going to test it again. it's interesting that there is no mention of temperature anywhere on the website or data sheets (other than flashpoint/melting point) it just says to put the tin on the cooker. I would imagine that this would potentially get a lot hotter than 70? Maybe the aluminium tin dissipates the heat or something so it doesn't get too hot......
TBH his answer isn’t exactly brimming with the confidence of expertise.
LOL who needs experts anyway. This stuff has zero instructions and even the maker hasn't a clue.
Why even use a thermometer? Like a chip pan on the hob if it starts stinking or smoking it's too hot, turn it off.
Ah chip pans on the hob, them were the days, come back from the pub, chop some potatoes with your sharpest knife, wang them into a smoking pan of boiling fat. Totally safe after 9 pints of "premium" lager. Whoever thought that was a good idea.
Ah Yes, I have a mate with some nasty scars up his arm from an after pub chip pan fire. Made the classic mistake of picking up the pan to take outside.
almost perfect.
Heated up to 120 degrees then left to cool, the Putoline was still very much a thin liquid at 70 degrees, and started to thicken up as it dropped through the 60s. Solid by about 64 degrees.
That sounds about right, the thermostat will be on the metal bowl, so a bit like the ice in your single malt is probably at -18C (because it's in a 40% v/v ethanol solution) but the outside of the glass is nearer room temperature, but left indefinitely the thermostat on your radiator will melt the ice and the whole lot will be at ~19C or whatever.
Then to freeze it again you need to get the whole room down to -18 but that will probably be a much slower and even process.
So I wonder how often you would expect it to last on a motorbike chain?
It's designed for non-O ring chains, so generally motocross now. Doing the chain every weekend is probably the least part of maintenance for a 'crosser.
speedway riders also - my father in law sponsors one of the Edinburgh Monarchs riders, and as soon as he smelled the garage as the chains were in my DFF, he said "ah, putloline! smells just like the Monarchs' pits"
Why even use a thermometer? Like a chip pan on the hob if it starts stinking or smoking it’s too hot, turn it off.
I think after all the investigatory work the above is about right. The best bit of advice from Bernard is not to let it get too hot and evaporate some of the lighter oils.
I couldn't even get my DFF to fully melt the wax with the thermostat set to 70 - despite stirring it round etc. The element basically came on for about 5 mins and then the light went out and it never came back on again. 20 mins later it was still half solid.
Turned it up to 100 and it melted but according to my thermometer it was at 110+. That did seem to be about right mind, it wasn't smoking and it was thin enough to run off and leave a thin layer coating my probe (ooh err!).
As it cooled and got to around 70 it was too thick IMO - It was like thick double cream and left a massive thick coating on the probe. The ambient air temp was probably too cold TBH as I was in the shed but it didn't drip off, just set as soon as it came out of the DFF.
I blame lockdown and the weather, as if it wasn't for that I'd be out cycling instead of arsing about trying to get chain wax to the perfect application temperature! 😜
I dunked my extraction hook in the oil once it had all melted to a relatively low temp. I have no numbers unfortunately. The whole waxed section here was dunked for ten seconds or so and then removed at once. Of course, the wire near the surface is cooler as it's conducting heat away, and you can see how lower temps result in much more wax adhering to the metal surface.
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Crikey this is all very scientific!
My method consists of chain into slow cooker / Putoline on high temp. Hot enough to make sure the wax is very runny and can easily get into all the rollers. There’s certainly no smoking / oil burning going on though. I leave it for 15 mins or so then turn the heat off completely. I then let it cool down until the wax leaves a decent coat on the outside when removing it. Chain then gets hung up above the slow cooker and with some gloves on I run my fingers down the chain removing as much excess wax back into the pot below as I want.
as if it wasn’t for that I’d be out cycling instead of arsing about trying to get chain wax to the perfect application temperature!
Sounds like you're having fun though
I took the plunge, and about half a tin of Putoline seems to do the trick in a little 1.5l £9.99 slow cooker from Dyas - half a tin seems to cover the chain enough with plenty of depth left over in this one. There are three temp settings which seemed pretty consistent when I measured them with a laser thermometer:
High: 100 degrees - fast movers only
Medium: 70 degrees - turboprop fleet
Low: 100 (ahem) degrees - crack ferrets
The usual high tolerance manufacturing standards of Dyas at play there. It's where I buy all my scanning tunneling microscopes, dontchaknow.
I tried a couple of newish chains without cleaning them because I'm lazy and it was bloody cold out, even in the shed, and I also stuck them in at 70 to see what would happen. As it was near freezing, when I hung them up there was a lot of extra wax on the outside, which looks really fugly but doesn't seem to have killed the neighbour's cat or anything.
In use, everything's nice and smoof, so much so I could feel the one sticky link on my hardtail's chain all the way round my usual short loop, rather than only up to the first boggy section.
I'll try 100 degrees next time for a cleaner finish with less clumping.
A friend has already expressed interest in reusing a conked out old slow cooker he has with the other half tin, so if you're havering, then I'd say give it a go with a mate for £23 all in each for two set-ups - I spend that on chain cleaning fluid and lubes each year anyway. If you can find an old heatery thing to bung it in you can knock a tenner off that and avoid the social damage of being seen in a branch of Dyas. The rest of the family's bikes tend to have grotty chains if I don't clean them, so this should also save me a fair amount of hassle if I only have to re-coat their chains every month or so - I reckon you could do a family's worth of bikes in a lazy evening.
I think that's spot on @bentudder. 100 degrees seems about right - well certainly in the winter if your doing this outside/shed where its bloody cold.
Might get away with nearer 70 degrees in the summer but I think if the Puto is the consistency of single cream then that will be perfect.
Ok so my experience of Putoline....
I cleaned and dipped a brand new chain into my slow cooker pot of Putoline recently. I let it cool right down before removing the chain and duly spent a chunk of time wiping the excess off it before chucking it on the bike. I really don’t think there could be any more Putoline in the rollers than there was.
I’ve covered just 150 road miles since and the chain sounds gritty already. That being said 90% of those miles were in the glorious rain. I really was expecting it to last longer, perhaps my expectations are too high?
I wiped the chain down with a damp towel after each ride to remove any excess that has made its way out of the rollers.
One thing I am rather more disappointed about though is the deposits of Putoline on the chainring, jockey wheels and cassette. It’s pretty foul stuff and difficult to clean off anything. I’ve used squirt for years so was kind of expecting the same kind of easy cleaning but this stuff just sticks to whatever it touches.
Perhaps I need to try something different to avoid an oily mess?
sounds like it was a bit too cool to me so you had excess on the chain. the right amount should leave the chain coated but no deposits betwen the links. too cool and you get a lot between the links that gets transferred to the chainring etc
But yes - it does stick to whatever it touches - thats how it stays so long on the chain
150 road miles is a lot less than i am used to getting and I have no reason why that should be.
WD 40 or similar will remove it from the cassette
I’ve dipped it again and removed it whilst it was a bit hotter than last time. The excess left on it was noticeably less than the first time. Forecast looks a bit drier this week onwards so hopefully it’ll last a little longer this time 🤞
One thing I am rather more disappointed about though is the deposits of Putoline on the chainring, jockey wheels and cassette.
I also am going with too cool. Cooler temps lead to much more excess. I'm working on the assumption that I'll go a bit cooler for winter than summer. I did a cool dunk this time and there's quite a bit of excess on the chain, but not so much on the rest of the drivetrain. I also hung it and wiped it as usual, so the outside was clean. The excess on my chain is that which was squeezed out after the first few miles.
I've done loads of wet crappy miles recently (haven't we all?) on road and it's still tickety boo.
Thought this evening was the perfect time to boil the MSW off my chains and get the block of MSW out of the slow cooker ready for putoline. Didn't quite go to plan but at least I have a nice block of MSW. Now I have to buy a new slow cooker or deep fat fryer, I could have just left the MSW in this one ffs.
How long does MSW last in comparison to Putoline? Looks a lot less messy?
My homebrew MSW lasts about 1/3 the time of Plutoline in winter and about 2/3 of the time in summer. Much cleaner to work with though.
Reading the previous posts on temp I'm Def in the warmer category but my trick is to leave the chain on its side on an old towel as it cools. I can then run the excess off easily without (I think) too much dropping off. Doing this I get 4-5 mega grotty winter rides on my MTB between waxes (and it's not gritty when I rewax).
The old towel becomes totally waxy and minging but is good for wiping over chains that have rust spots.
It's not messy, if you're referring to the splashes on the side of the pot, that's just from me swishing the chain around. I'd say that wax has probably done about 25 chain dunks so far and I don't intend on throwing that away either.
In terms of how long it lasts on a chain, in dry conditions 3 or 4 long road rides (so ~400km). In horrible winter, wet road conditions, 1 ride, maybe 2. I went for a road ride on Saturday and it was relatively dry conditions but with some very wet and muddy patches, I took the chain off when I got home and cleaned the bike, thinking I'd have to put another chain on, but actually twisting the chain it felt like there was still wax in the rollers so it will go back on for another ride or 2.
I hoped MSW would be my permanent solution to chain lube, but it just doesn't last long enough in the wet of winter. So going to try putoline next.
I've found so far that if I dip the chain at 70 (2 degrees ambient) and take it out, I get loads of build up on the outside of the chain. It needs to be in the rollers, not on the outside. Another attempt at 100 degrees, taking it right out and sound excess off with a rag, worked better and has resulted in nice clean drive trains. Mind you, only about 60 miles in across two mountain bikes in generally dry conditions so far. Most noticeable is that 'smooth new chain' feel when pedaling.
Hotter better than cooler in my opinion. I've been surprised by the recent turn of this thread with people recommending cooler temps with the unsurprising consequence of complaints about the excess wax build up and mess. It's almost like they haven't read the whole thread. There was a post not far back where someone was recommending a consistency like single cream or something. How is that going to help the capillary action to draw it into the rollers? And all that excess wax left between the links is only going to create somewhere for the grit to stick and lead to the premature grinding sounds that people are hearing.
I'm not one for slavishly following the 'established' wisdom if a new better way can be found but, in this case the established wisdom is born out of experience and seems to give good results for those that follow it.
New Question
Sorry if it's been covered in one of the 1938348563872641109845 posts on the topic already, but I can't find an answer to this.
What do folks do to clean their bikes without washing the wax out? I like to give the bike a quick go over with bucket, sponge & a bit of soap before putting it away (and would previously give the chain a good scrub with a brush). Do I need to be careful keeping the soap away from the chain or should it be OK?
soap will not touch it. It needs a solvent like wd 40
@stevious I just hose my chain and drivetrain off with water, comes up nice and clean. Then run it through a rag to take off excess water.
Yep, will quite happily hose it off then just run it through a rag that has been sprayed with GT85. Comes up looking clean, leaves the wax intact.
I can never get all the water off though, next day there will always be a rust spot on the underside of the lower links where a droplet or two has formed. Doesn't seem to do any harm except setting my OCD off! I guess this is why people use compressed air or something to blast drivetrain but I'm not buying a compressor just for drying my chains...
So now I've destroyed my slow cooker, can anyone definitively recommend a fryer over a new slow cooker for putoline?
I bought a compressor for drying my bike, it also pumps tyres. It’s also VERY loud.
DFF is way better than a slow cooker IMO. Heats up in minutes as opposed to days,
I also think that 100 degrees is just about right for dunking, followed by a single wipe down while the chain is hanging over the pot.
Hmm, I've used my compressor for cleaning out bearings and things, or just hard to get to places (the bits the pawls sit in on a hope freewheel for example), but I must admit I've never thought about using it to clean the bike. Genius!
Well I have also jumped in on this and ordered putoline and the Argos special.
Will see how it goes. I assume the fryer basket just sits in/on the solid putoline when not being used, probably obvious but thought I'd ask.
yep, after the chain's out but while wax is still liquid, put the basket back in, close the lid, turn off and leave it. The wax will solidify around the basket until next time.