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If the OP really wants this to show up on a Google search he might want to change the title from 'liftime' warranty ;). But really, one hour after it is posted, this thread is on the first page for 'litespeed warranty'. Scary
I don't think blame only the material. There are Ti frames still on the go from way back. I've seen quite a few Airbornes about and that company has been defunct for years.
I've a twenty one year old merlin that must have done tens of thousands of miles. It's been used offroad, touring, racing and commuting. It was last ridden for a road/bridleway route at the weekend.
Are Lightspeed still made in the States? I'm now getting a bit worried about my old Lightspeed-made Tomac 🙂
Considering ti frames are billed as 'for life', the number of threads about broken ones vs broken steel or alloy frames is very high (especially considering ti frames must be a tiny fraction of the number of frames out there).
Back in time to the front page, I think there are probbaly a lot more broken frames out there, but Ti owners are more likely to demand a warrenty replacement after 10 years, whereas my cannondale I'd probably hang on the wall as it cost 0.1x what a ti one would have done. Ditto steel frames, loads of roadies have issues with steel frames, everything from BB's deforming/ovalising/cracking, to tubes poping out of the luggs.
litespeed titanium lifetime warranty issue has a ring to it. and from the advertising quoted clearly claims the lifetime of the first owner. clearly by expecting most bikes to last only 5 years they must be aware that to offer such a warranty thier product would have to exceed by some margin the usal or expected lifespan of a titanium frame.
such a calculation must include factoring in the wear and tear that such a long life would insinuate. so clearly they have miscalculated or not calculated or deliberatly not built to the specification indicated by the calculation.
all these sums are possible.. aircraft manufacturers do it.
if litespeed offer no prospect of a sucessful cliam for a full replacement FOC then the samll claims is the way. your small inital payment ( refunded as costs if sucessful) ensures that they have a case to answer failing to answer or losing would mean you winning and being awarded costs etc if a USA company chose to ignore the decsion you could have a lean placed on goods etc belonging to the compnay in the uk and youd soon get your money..
I don't think blame only the material. There are Ti frames still on the go from way back. I've seen quite a few Airbornes about and that company has been defunct for years.
Bu that's my point - the likes of Airborne/ Van Nic don't appear to be any less durable, are much cheaper, and don't offer a worthless warranty.
leffeboy I think stw is now "go-to" for google on these topics, not to mention religion, nuclear power, helmet efficacy etc 😉
I dislike their arrogance shown to customers. 🙁
I dislike the spelling 'Lite'.
It recently developed a crack in the welding just behind the headtube...
Interesting, the mode of failure probably has some baring on their interpretation of the applicability of their "lifetime warranty", sa a longitudital crack developed in a tube rather than a weld cracking then they may have conceeded a fault in materials, failure at the weld is more open to question from either party I suppose in that there is apparently no damage cause by a flaw the parent material but at the weld, which of course they produced but would also be the focal point for stresses induced through missuse...
I'd go back and question their quality systems ask if can they supply the following proof for the quality of manufacture specifically for your frame:
1- Material Certificates for the tubing used in you frame
2- Certs for the Welder who constructed your frame
3- Inspection Logs/certs and details of the procedures used in Weld inspections and/or Factory acceptance testing conducted on your frame.
4- Details of the engineering substasiation carried out in the design of the frame (Calculations and/or FEA).
Put the onus back on them to demonstrate unequiocally that the failed weld was, at the time of construction, sufficiently tested and substansiated against failure under what they could reasonably term "normal use".
Effectively they are asserting that you have in some way abused or missassembled the product, leading to this failure, switch it around and demand that thay demonstrate just how they provided engineered safeguards against such a failure in this structure relative to it's expected operational use...
If they cannot or will not provide any of the above proof of the frames suitability for integration into a mountain Bike with the obvious structural challenges that entails then challenge them on that, They are stating that the items failure is completely due to your missuse but they are not providing any evidence that ten years ago they took measures to guard against a lemon leaving the factory.
They use the word "Quality" in a couple of places in there [I]About Us [/I] page but make no mention of any internal systems for ensuring it or any formal accreditation of their Quality... Challenge them on this also, you bought their product in good faith it has failed you want proof that they engineered it not to...
State that you had a reasonable expectation of the products performance and durability (naturally based on the products "lifetime warranty") and in stating that the frame was engineered and constructed sufficiently to meet those expectations the burden of proof is upon them to show it...
[i]Remind me not to buy a Litespeed.[/i]
Why, how many other manufacturers' frames would last 10 years?
I've had a Lynskey Ti frame for 3 years now, and tbh even if it fails after just 5 years I'd be happy when I look at the sheer number of (off-road) miles its done - especially compared to the little use most MTB's on here seem to get.
You've three choices; take the repair offer, buy a new discounted one or go to a different manufacturer - for me it would be a new frame.
I read the whole thread just waiting for a post like that. Nearly made it to the end all happy with STW. b r ruined my day.
b r - That's not the point - they advertised a Lifetime warranty - so they should honour it.
Never mind the cats in parallel universes mentioned earlier, we have three pages of responses, none of which disagree vehemently with the OP.
Is this STW in a parallel universe?!
The problem comes with welds where there can be micro stresses and edges that produce loads above the fatigue limit.
Therefore failure due to a manufactuing error and hence covered by the warranty. Fatigue failure can take an awfully long time to occur.
Which pretty much sums up what cookeaa has just written an essay on. 🙂
Stick it to the man! Get in touch with citizen's advice bureau for legal advice. Obviously tricky since you're dealing with a foreign company but they may be able to point you in the right direction.
Why, how many other manufacturers' frames would last 10 years?
Many others, at much lower prices.
Would any of the other Ti bike builders care to comment on the "5 year" issue?
[i]Why, how many other manufacturers' frames would last 10 years?[/i]
Err, my Fleet custom steel HT, built in 1992?
Ti-dying is getting quite popular again. Bloody hippies.
Just thought I'd chime in with a clarification on our "Lifetime" warranty we offer.
Because of the historically ambiguous use of the term "lifetime" and whether it applies to the lifespan of the owner or the frame, we supply all our frames with a small mammal (most often a gerbil). Our "lifetime" warranty applies to the lifespan of the mammal, not the owner or the frame.
This makes warranty claims completely transparent. We *WILL NOT* honour any warranty claims unless the claim is submitted with the original small mammal in good working (not dead) condition.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion.
Steven
'Why, how many other manufacturers' frames would last 10 years?'
My 1992 Merlin? Mind you that wasn't made by Litespeed 😉
Steven - is it possible to fit a modified hamster wheel to the cranks in order to make the gerbil contribute to his keep?
is it possible to fit a modified hamster wheel to the cranks in order to make the gerbil contribute to his keep?
Not in the Northern hemisphere, they run the wrong way here. It would work in Australia though.
Because of the historically ambiguous use of the term "lifetime" and whether it applies to the lifespan of the owner or the frame, we supply all our frames with a small mammal (most often a gerbil). Our "lifetime" warranty applies to the lifespan of the mammal, not the owner or the frame.
A gerbils lifespan is only 2-3 years. That's OK for a cheap aluminium frame but for a high end ti frame I reckon you should supply a horse or a whale.
My thoughts exactly, especially if the Litespeed Warranty is for 'original owner only'.Do they expect more than a handful of people to be returning frames 10+ years old? of course not, so why not just take those costs on the chin
The OP has every right to very very cheesed off and hopefully the damage done to Litespeeds reputation, in failing to honour the terms of their warranty, will hit the money grabbing gits where it hurts most ie. future sales.
should supply a horse or a whale.
That might impact the sales, though as who is going to want to go for a ride with a whale strapped to the top tube.
Also I suspect that the new frame weight of circa 200003.5 pounds might put people off as well.
You're being silly now, Rich.
Nobody would take a whale riding with them - you'd leave it in the bath.
😀 @ shandcycles
Fair enough, shandcycles gerbil warranty lifetime is still 1/3rd longer than Cove's warranty, which is why I stopped buying Cove's.
Perhaps I should have worded my annoyance with there short warranty as only 2/3rd's of a gerbil's lifetime.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=litespeed+lifetemi+warranty&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=biN&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&sa=X&ei=KkS2T_KBCobs8QP7mYzICg&ved=0CBIQvwUoAA&q=litespeed+lifetime+warranty&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=5af2b362263a1430&biw=1280&bih=914 ]5th, 6th and 7th in google :)[/url]
VOLVO FOR SALE is back! 😀
I know who started that...
Only read the first page, but this sucks and would put me off from EVER buying a litespeed frame.
A lifetime warranty for the life of the original owner should be just that.
Manufacturing defects fall into more categories than shoddy welding, poor material selection that affects the long term durability or work-hardening properties of the item that may take years to occur are part of the overall durability and quality of the item, and therefore fitness for purpose.
I would make it my personal mission to drive away every single Litespeed customer I could until this warranty was resolved in a satisfactory manner. Slippery marketing speak has no place in warranty terms.
I wonder how many more Litespeed lifetime warranty posts it takes to move it up?
At least they haven't called the Police and accused you of harrassment yet http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com/
Litespeed lifetime warranty
A genuine Ratner moment. Not only in terms of customer service, but their views on the premium (sic) branding and qualities of Ti. How to kill your brand in one easy move. And to think I was contemplating a Litespeed Tri bike. Thanks but no thanks.
Thanks for posting the warning on Litespeed lifetime warranties and low life expectancy of Ti frames.
I agree with all the disappointment expressed here, but unfortunately according to my mate who is a Trading Standards officer (who are generally very pro-consumer), 'lifetime warranty' does not actually mean your lifetime. Instead it means 'reasonably expected' lifetime of the item in question.
Except when they specifically state 'lifetime of the original owner' as opposed to just 'lifetime' though surely? I think if you were to pursue this far enough they would have to back down, but them being in a foreign country makes it a bit tricky.
BTW I'm sure I've read on here of Specialized giving replacements on ~10 year old frames on their lifetime warranty before.
Very poor from Litespeed - their lifetime warranty is effectively meaningless (litespeed lifetime warranty litespeed lifetime warranty litespeed lifetime warranty litespeed lifetime warranty) 🙂
Probably not the sort of bike you're looking for, but CDale were always superb with their warranty claims
NJee:
I've heard the opposite, they were awful, and were very well known for saying "the lifetime of the frame has ended, therefore your lifetime warranty is over".
That's not correct. Cannondale's guarantee specifically states "[i]lifetime of the original owner[/i]". Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it would be easy to get a new frame out of them! On the whole they seem pretty good though (maybe a bit slow!)
http://forums.mtbr.com/cannondale/cannondale-lifetime-warranty-experiences-facts-680245.html
Warranty is P82:
Sad news for the OP though. I have read this same issue several times with Litespeed on the US forums. Not good enough for a ti frame of that price. Didn't somebody buy LS a few years ago? Suspect their standards have dropped. At any rate they are losing their reputation over these issues. Not good. It takes an awful lot of work to build up a good name.
They've got a Facebook page. 😉
When I had trouble getting any help from Jack at Lynskey over my broken frame, I posted on Lynskey's Facebook page and Don there sorted it out pretty quick.
I know I was dealing with one awkward individual within a company, whereas you're dealing with company policy, so it's not quite the same, but I wonder what would happen if Litespeed got several innocent requests via Facebook from potential customers asking for clarification of their warranty cover before making a purchase ?
I do find it odd that litespeed lifetime warrant means they have a set time frame for what that means in terms of the years of use you will get from the frame and it is not your lifetime
In my opinion this would appear to be an attempt to imply it is greater than it really it is
At least they haven't called the Police and accused you of harrassment yet http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com/
They called the police for starting a couple of threads? WTF????
how is it harrassment to say what they have done accurately reported?
shandcycles - Member
Just thought I'd chime in with a clarification on our "Lifetime" warranty we offer.Because of the historically ambiguous use of the term "lifetime" and whether it applies to the lifespan of the owner or the frame, we supply all our frames with a small mammal (most often a gerbil). Our "lifetime" warranty applies to the lifespan of the mammal, not the owner or the frame.
This makes warranty claims completely transparent. We *WILL NOT* honour any warranty claims unless the claim is submitted with the original small mammal in good working (not dead) condition.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion.
Steven
Can I just ask, before a plan comes together, do you microchip the gerbils?
Wandering off topic a bit here, but this is probably the main reason I won't be renewing my STW subscription.*
Wouldn't it be good if magazines carried well researched investigative articles on maunufacturer's warranties instead of just copy & pasting their press releases.
*Not in a Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells "I'm not buying this rubbish" sort of way, more a sort of disappointed "There's not much in here that really interests me" way.
No mag is going to pulicize negative warranty experiences - advertising revenue & trust would disappear.
yes why dont mags annoy the sponsors ...perhaps stw could then do a Premier posters who annoy us on the forum section with excerpts of our stupidity /pointless posts.
they let us do this what more can they do within the commercial restraints of their industry?
Wow, thats one brand off of my future wishlist.
I'm confused. Does the gerbil technically own the frame then? Do you have to have its permission to modify it then, does it get a say in the build spec?
What tyres do gerbils like?
Hora I am pretty sure any frame would last the lifetime of your ownership 😛
That's not correct. Cannondale's guarantee specifically states "lifetime of the original owner". Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it would be easy to get a new frame out of them! On the whole they seem pretty good though (maybe a bit slow!)http://forums.mtbr.com/cannondale/cannondale-lifetime-warranty-experiences-facts-680245.html
Warranty is P82:
I'm afraid that CSG take the 5 years is all that you can reasonably expect line. So if you are on a 5 year old alloy frame they essentially expect it to fail soon
They do give some margin for light use over the period but proving that on a mtb is nigh on impossible.
And that's on the 2004 warranty which is better alledgedly.
to get them to assess it you need to send the whole bike back so don't strip it down when it fails
Litespeed lifetime warranty?
Why, how many other manufacturers' frames would last 10 years?
13 year old steel Dekerf over here.
Lots of good stuff on the web about how keen he is to repair any damage to frames and get them back out there being ridden.
('cept shipping to and from Canada would be much more expensive than paying Dave Yates to do it)
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - MemberWandering off topic a bit here, but this is probably the main reason I won't be renewing my STW subscription.*
Wouldn't it be good if magazines carried well researched investigative articles on maunufacturer's warranties instead of just copy & pasting their press releases.
that's called journalism, it involves a lot of hard work, doesn't involve riding with your mates and may mean that when they take out for dinner it's pizza hut rather than the rather good restaurant you usually get, you may not get the all expenses paid trip to the product launch either
would you do it?
I'm looking forward to the "grinder" review of the tyres that Benji used around Penmachno the other day 😉
That wasn't meant to be quite the dig at STW as it might read.
After all, I don't buy magazines on Land Rovers, motorbikes, running, wildlife or any of the other things I'm interested in either.
It is a pretty sad state of affairs, though, when it's assumed STW would lose most of their advertising revenue if they upset all the dodgy companies. It makes it sound like substandard products and worthless warranties are the norm.
I dunno, I'm just wishfully rambling really, but Which and Money Saving Expert, for example, seem to survive OK on unbiased reporting. It's a shame there isn't a mountain bike equivelent.
Note to self: avoid American Bicycle Group brands.
Junkyard - Member
they let us do this what more can they do within the commercial restraints of their industry?
probably more to do with the parents being out of the office and the kids enjoying a long lunch in the Stubbing Wharf 😉
Brucewee's link: Wow!
Even Apple don't get you arrested for complaining, do they?
Using Google. http://www.google.co.uk/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=lifetime+definition
and
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/lifetime
There are some hic-cups. Can I clarify the EXACT wording?
[i]Lifetime of the original owner?[/i]
Or is it more ambiguous and can mean 'useful lifetime of the product'?
At the least though the statement should be clear and not open to interpretation either way.
I'd like my warranty to be based on the lifetime of one of these beauties:
[url= http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Harriet_fg1.jp g" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Harriet_fg1.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
(although not actually harriet, because she is dead)
Dave
Which and Money Saving Expert, for example, seem to survive OK on unbiased reporting
Both consumer organisations
....or does it mean a 'hora frame lifetime'? 😆
Do you have to have its permission to modify it then, does it get a say in the build spec?
I've not had a modified gerbil, how do you do that then?
Will my litespeed warranty not be honoured? (For Google)
I just remembered - I had a Raleigh road bike with a "Lifetime" warranty on the frame. Steel it was. 12 years old.
The chainstay snapped - I took it into Halfords and got a new bike.
I wasn't even the original owner (but don't tell Halfords (or Raleigh) that will ya.)
Says something about Litespeed (spit) though eh.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=litespeed+frame+warranty+not+honoured&oq=litespeed+frame+warranty+not+honoured&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.3...77110.80242.2.80384.13.13.0.0.0.0.128.890.12j1.13.0...0.0.WTGyLKlRxZk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=9e2621fae004ee9c&biw=1092&bih=514
first one that is not them now
Chapeau Forum
[i]So I started the first of my threads on the cycling forums, RoadBikereview and BikeRadar
One 2nd December, in the evening, I was at home and I noticed several missed calls to my mobile phone and subsequently emails from Chris Hewings, the salesman in Ireland for the American Bicycle Group.
At 21:50 Chris Hewings telephone me and said they would offer me a replacement carbon Litespeed and that they had reported my forum activities to the police. During the very long one-sided phone call Mr Hewings did not offer an explanation as to why my warranty claim had been rejected. However, he did promise a written offer within 48 hours.
The following Sunday I had the “knock on the door” from two policemen who had come to serve an harrasment order on me. Once I had explained the situation regarding my warranty claim against Merlin/Litespeed they left without serving the order and none too happy for being used in a warranty claim.[/i]
😯
That's just unbelievable, not even a civil case but calling the police for harassment as the result of a thread about a cracked frame.
What did they think they were playing at?
Makes you wonder how long before Chipps and Mark get their collars felt and this thread disappears...
[edit] and that blokes blog is number 4 on Google for Litespeed Warranty.
I think the original forum thread that started in was: http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12744794
I just remembered - I had a Raleigh road bike with a "Lifetime" warranty on the frame. Steel it was. 12 years old.
The chainstay snapped - I took it into Halfords and got a new bike.
I had one of the RSP Titanium frames fail on me (I was first owner). The LBS sorted out the replacement with no hassle.
top marks Raleigh, well done Eddie McGrath's in Urmston
Yup, calling the police on your customers puts Superstar's customer service into perspective, doesn't it 🙂
Crazy story about the police knocking on your door!
Interestingly he ended up with a free repair after change of ownership but I wonder if that's just because the frame was there and they didn't realise it wasn't a warranty job?
Seem to have reverted to previous practices since March last year anyway 🙁
I can't believe Litespeed weren't laughed off the phone by the police!
"hello police, somebody has written something on the internet that I don't like....."
I wasn't joking before.
Ask for proper proof of the original quality of manufacture specifically for your frame it opens up the question of how they actually differentiate between failure due to missuse and failure through production flaws.
My own suspicion is they don't do anything like like the level of testing and inspection that fabricators of equipment in many other fields would need to simply as a matter of RGP let alone covering them against liability for failure.
chase them, all they have is a wooley worded open to interpretation warranty and a decision that they are not at fault based on.... what exactly?
shandcycles did a funny
I find it very hard to believe the police would get involved in something like that.
There's a chap up here who keeps calling us every time he gets a shite review for his B and B on TripAdvisor, claiming (without a shred of evidence) that it's the previous owners trying to sabotage his business and quoting some Telecommunications legislation at us.
We keep telling him, nicely, to sling his hook, so he has made a formal complaint against the police!
(And don't get me started on 'someone said I was fat on facebook' complaints).
So it's not just LiteSpeed who go running to teacher when someone says something they don't like on the internet.
Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the [b]lifetime of the original owner[/b].
Seems clear!
But is followed by:
Useful Product Life CycleEvery Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period.
This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions and care the bicycle receives.
Whish is pretty much as useless and grey as it possibly could be.
I reckon you'd be rolling a dice on a small claims court claim against the seller/importer.
Having read this thread, and then googled 'Litespeed warranty', I cannot understand why anyone would subsequently buy one of their frames. The interweb is awash with tales of woe.
EDIT: Can I expect the rozzers to turn up now?
Gerbils-
shorter life expectancy shirley if (like my 'friends' gerbils) they spend time running up a cardboard tube with Columbian marching powder on their feet.
Or is that hamsters ?
coming soon, the Shand branded Galapagos Tortoise trailer.
So it's not just LiteSpeed who go running to teacher when someone says something they don't like on the internet.
Though when it's Nottingham Airport, everyonew suddenly takes it seriously...
Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.
Then in regards to my earlier post re google/dictionary definitions thats [i][b]very[/b][/i] clear IMO. No wiggle-room there for them. Badform.