What jacket is that
The one I have is literally called the 'Rab Alpha Direct', it's from a few years ago, is amazing, was new at the time but now seems to have disappeared from the UK website (still shows on US site rab alpha direct). Its like a lighter more breathable Buffalo, it's comfortable in an uncannily wide range of conditions and as such is the most useful winter hill jacket have ever had - one caveat though, it's not super warm so tend to throw a down gillet over if static in really bad conditions. There must be some story as to why it's gone so soon, maybe to do with cost or availability of the 'named' fabric, or maybe the Alpha's just disappeared as between seasons... There seems to be a similar styled jacket in the 'Vapour rise summit' which is close but using their own brand VR tech.
Hi I have a castelli perfetto ROS.
I would be happy wearing it next to skin as it has a nice feel inside. It's windproof and is supposely water resistant although I've been lucky enough not to test it on that yet.
It's great on the road bike. I went for bright orange for visability on the road, I think the colour would not survive MTB mud. Its too pricy for me to risk on Brambles!
There is a zip off sleeves version as well.
There are road pockets on the back, I'm sure they would come off with 30 seconds and a sharp pair of sizors.
I've had it on down to 0 with lots of layers and up to 15 with a thin jersey under. So depends on your idea of 3 seasons. I run cold.
I don't know if this is classed as a softshell but it fits most of your criteria or is at least going to do a similar job. Feels ok next to the skin, has some windproofing and is v.breathable.
https://www.endurasport.com/c/MT500-Thermal-L-S-II/p/E3194-Black
I think it's the new version of one I bought several years ago although not 100% certain. A lot of the time the only extra that one needs is a thin gilet over the top if the temperature is dropping or the rain's picking up a bit. Gilets are a lot less faff-inducing than mid-layers or jackets given that lack of faffage is possibly your main aim?
Edit: looking closer, it isn't the same as no back pockets. The 'windchill' jacket here is nearer to a new version of mine - https://www.endurasport.com/c/Windchill-Jacket-II/p/E9161-Rust-Red . Labelled as a softshell no less - win win!
The point where Andy Kirkpatrick started writing poetry was a Rubicon moment for me. There was no excuse for that.
Anyway, what works for me, but won't work for the OP, is a combination of a DHB Polartec Alpha gilet layered over a Brynje mesh baselayer - Right Said Fred live - and under a soft shell / windproof / waterproof depending on conditions. Or without if it's right for what's going on.
Windstopper is frankly a bit crap when it comes to breathability. It's a PTFE, waterproof membrane without a protective PU smear and with untaped seams. When MHW first used is as an N2S layer called Transition, I used it quite a lot next to skin. On some days it was perfect, on a lot of other days, it simply wasn't. There's a reason no-one does next-to-skin Windstopper any more and it's that mostly it doesn't work that well.
Personally I find Polartec Alpha is great in cool conditions, but is expensive and rare in bike specific versions. Fox Racing does an Alpha bike jacket but it costs north of £200. DHB has an interesting hybrid jacket mixing Alpha with other Polartec fabrics. Buffalo seems to appeal to one-time mountaineers of a certain age who think it's still the 1980s and will also witter on about how Ronhill Tracksters are perfect in every way.
It’s weird, something that was designed 30 years ago to move people out of rigid thinking about protective clothing has itself over time become its own rigid and inflexible set of rules about what to wear.
Not really. The term softshell was appropriated by marketing departments and now means something to most people that isn't reflective of what the original use and idea was (see Kirkpatrick article) and everybody gets confused and talks at cross purposes. Just see this thread for examples.
Surely even the word ‘softshell’ is indicative of the fact it’s meant to be worn as an outer layer, ie over something? Where does one go to find the true path to softshell enlightenment?
@grum yep, you wear it over your skin! A good reference to what the original inception of softshell was here.
@chiefgrooveguru I've not tried one of those base layers but could be tempted if it works (I usually ride on my own no where near schools so not concerned by S&M vibe), what windproof do you use it with? The thing I liked about the Phantom was that I could be comfortable from close to zero up to 20degC up hill and down dale only having to adjust the zip or pull the sleeves off when things were at the limits of that range. Literally nothing else that I have found comes close. In Scotland I could put it on and know that I wouldn't need to don or remove layers for an entire day unless the heavens truly opened, I rode into a desert or the next ice age turned up. In the time I had it, riding every week, year round, my waterproof probably got used 2-3 time a year. It was really that good. It was so good that when I was at risk of unemployment a few years ago I considered setting up a company to make a newer version just so that I could have one! But too few people seem to understand the concept for it to be viable. Which is probably why gore stopped making them and the potentiall viable biking-focussed alternatives that people have suggested on here masquerade under names other than softshell because the word no longer means what it used to.
So “proper softshell” is actually fleece-backed pertex?
Wore a pertex jacket (used to be my only MTB jacket for years) the other week, it was awful compared to modern (not)softshell jackets – and not any more water-repellent.
Pile is not the same as fleece, they do different things. A pertex classic or similar jacket over a fleece is not the same, in fact it is usually a sweaty mess. Pertex classic dries fast but isn't very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable. In this situation I think a lightweight gore-tex waterproof jacket (or similar) performs better than pertex because it is breathable rather than fast drying. This is why softshells work best when they are a snug fit touching you all over 🙂 , my biggest gripe with Buffalo is that they use a bin bag as a template so large areas of skin do get sweaty because there is nothing wicking it away.
DHB has an interesting hybrid jacket mixing Alpha with other Polartec fabrics
What's the fit like on the DHB Polartec? I like the idea of the blend of Neoshell/ Alpha but the picture of the garment flat makes it appear incredibly long armed and close fitting/ short on the front like a Pro Cut Rapha or Aero Castelli fit - whereas I'm short of arm with increasing pie retention at waist...needs to get out more. Ronhill tracksters are really good by the way.
Buffalo seems to appeal to one-time mountaineers of a certain age who think it’s still the 1980s and will also witter on about how Ronhill Tracksters are perfect in every way.
🤣🤣🙃
"and will also witter on about how Ronhill Tracksters are perfect in every way"
I've still got the ones I bought when I was 16. They fit more like tights now! Fortunately for everyone they're only used instead of thermal underwear (rather good at that).
"I’ve not tried one of those base layers but could be tempted if it works (I usually ride on my own no where near schools so not concerned by S&M vibe), what windproof do you use it with? The thing I liked about the Phantom was that I could be comfortable from close to zero up to 20degC up hill and down dale only having to adjust the zip or pull the sleeves off when things were at the limits of that range. Literally nothing else that I have found comes close."
I don't even know how that is possible thermodynamically!!!
I have a Paramo Enduro Windproof - velcro cuffs with wide sleeves so you can roll/push them up if need be, elbow to waist pit zips and a double-ended front zip. It's a pretty heavyweight mountaineering type thing with a massive hood. You probably want something with a less absolutely windproof fabric.
I could be comfortable from close to zero up to 20degC
cycling in 20degs in a Gore N2S! Christ I’d drown in my own sweat!
I'm still thinking the OP is trolling everyone about this.
"Pertex classic dries fast but isn’t very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable."
The pile and pertex on a Buffalo shirt are not bonded to each other, they just join where they're sewn together at the hems, cuffs and zips. Uncoated pertex breathes very well compared to any waterproofs but if there's a lot of moisture and a temperature gradient you get condensation and wicking instead.
cycling in 20degs in a Gore N2S! Christ I’d drown in my own sweat!
It was quite warm but those days often started out at less than 10degC with the sleeves on and at 20degC I could remove the sleeves and unzip the front more. Yes it was a bit sweatier than a jersey at the hot end but overall I guess my point was that it was very versatile and could deal with a very wide range of conditions without needing to add or remove another garment. Now when I go out in similar conditions I need a shortsleeved base layer, arm warmers, windproof and a gilet to cover all the same bases and I have to constantly stop to swap between them, stash them somewhere, and I still get sweatier and am less comfortable than I was in the Phantom. More faff, less comfort, heavier bigger bag.
“Pertex classic dries fast but isn’t very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable.”
The pile and pertex on a Buffalo shirt are not bonded to each other, they just join where they’re sewn together at the hems, cuffs and zips. Uncoated pertex breathes very well compared to any waterproofs but if there’s a lot of moisture and a temperature gradient you get condensation and wicking instead.
Interesting. My Montane has someting keeping the two in close proximity (peering through the bigger rip anyway), they aren't just loose. Maybe bonding was the wrong word and more in keeping with the original gore N2S approach.
I'd always read that pertex classic was supposed to be breathable but I've never found it to be particularly good on it's own, even compared to heavier gore-tex or eVent membranes, so just assumed that it was marketing spiel.
I’m still thinking the OP is trolling everyone about this.
Kind of funny given that I think that you are trolling me!
Now when I go out in similar conditions I need a shortsleeved base layer, arm warmers, windproof and a gilet
or a long sleeved base layer (push the sleeves up if you need to) and windproof gillet...you do seemed determined to make life hard for yourself.
or a long sleeved base layer (push the sleeves up if you need to) and windproof gillet…you do seemed determined to make life hard for yourself.
Not really. The ideal thing existed, but Gore stopped making it. Everything since, including your suggestion that I often now resort to, is a compromise in my experience.
This will just be another thread where every suggestion that matches your bizarre criteria will be rejected
We do appear to be veering towards this. There have been some really helpful comments and suggestions on here so far. The jacket you bought years ago is no longer available so you'll have to either choose between some compromises on your requirements or being unhappy with the choices available today.
There are several of us on here lamenting the demise of the original Montane Krypton. I know how disappointing it is
We do appear to be veering towards this. There have been some really helpful comments and suggestions on here so far.
I guess you missed the bits where I've thanked people for their suggestions that I will go and look at later, many of which look like good options, or where I've asked for more details on alternatives.
@ElShalimo
Full Member
I’m still thinking the OP is trolling everyone about this.
I agree.
In 20*c I am in shortsleeved baselayer and shorts, sweating like a pig in a butchers, and that is before I have even got to the bottom of the hill.
In 1*c not only are my hands and tootsies struggling to keep warm, I am wearing a decent couple of long sleeve baselayers and windproof top or full waterproof.
“Pertex classic dries fast but isn’t very breathable,so it needs to get wet to move the sweat out. Bonding it to pile (or microfleece, again not the same as fleece) lets the pile wick the moisture into the pertex where it evaporates from the surface. Without that bonding you just end up with sweat evaporating inside the pertex shell and you get hot and uncomfortable.”
So you are saying that Rab Vapor Rise, Buffalo (all), Montane Krypton & (old) Dyno, Montane extreme, Alpkit Morphosis and Jura, Vaude Croz etc are all really sweaty jackets, much more than a bonded Goretex Windstopper? wow.
Gore have never released breathability for Windstopper - much rumor it is original GoreTex fabric, of super low breathability and low Hydrostatic Head.
I have a Patagonia gore Windstopper fabric jacket of 2005ish vintage. It is my least worn jacket as it is a sweaty bin bag between soft fleecy liner and woven outer. I can wring it out on most days I wear it - so bad it is my gardening jacket.
I think you put too much sway in what Mr Kirkpatrick says, instead of trying a couple of things out for yourself with some newer fabric in baselayer and windproof layer.
I am a huge 'softshell' fan and a huge (more so) layers on and off fan.
For riding in cold I used to love my old Montane Dyno, made of early Pertex ECO, over a baselayer. The most breathable (and not quite windproof because of that) jacket I think I have ever had.
Now I have 'made my own' now - a running nylon Tog24 top with zip off arms and mesh panel down each side, with mesh pocket and zip to rear to open up venting even more. Under I wear a baselayer, and this I swap or double up depending on the weather. It is about as least sweaty yet windproof as I can go - although I want to try an GroundEffect style windproof front/non-windproof back jacket too. All have a back pocket or bar bag on bike I can pop various arms or layers in - I can even remove stuff while riding (although I am crap at being able to put it on while riding...).
As others have said, you seem to be fixated on something that is a) old tech and low performance compared to newer options b) fixated on one solution being better than anything else anyone can suggest and c) drunk too much mr_kirkpatrick cool-aid.
is a compromise in my experience.
sure, but the thing you seem to be fixated on 1. Probably wasn’t a “soft shell” in the proper sense of the garment that Andy Kirkpatrick describes, and 2. Doesn’t exist anymore anyway, and 3. no one makes anything similar
You’re going to have wear different things for different conditions.
As others have said, you seem to be fixated on something that is a) old tech and low performance compared to newer options b) fixated on one solution being better than anything else anyone can suggest and c) drunk too much mr_kirkpatrick cool-aid.
Sorry Mat, but no. It may be old tech but it worked brilliantly. I've tried as many of the newer options as I can afford (my own favourite walking/cragging top is a Montane Dyno). I only found the Kirkpatrick article last night after many years ruminating on the subject and thought it summed up most of my own thoughts without me needing to write it down.
Gore windstopper is sweaty and nasty. Gore N2S was very different and much lighter weight. As I admitted above my comment about bonding was a bit ott and inaccurate. Pertex in close proximity with microfleece/pile seems to work (but is too hot for me on a bike). Pertex over a fleece doesn't work in the same way in my experience. The closest I have come is a merino baselayer with a pertex shell but it still isn't as good as the N2S fabric.
Probably wasn’t a “soft shell” in the proper sense of the garment that Andy Kirkpatrick describes
How so? It is almost the definition in my book! Single garment, next to skin, no layers, wicking liner, windproof outer, effective moisture removal, weather resistant, wide comfort range, etc.
I read this last night but couldn't summon up the willpower to reply. From now on I am going to evaluate every cyclist I see to consider if they are wearing anything underneath their outer shell.
I read this last night but couldn’t summon up the willpower to reply. From now on I am going to evaluate every cyclist I see to consider if they are wearing anything underneath their outer shell.
You only need concern yourself with those wearing "softshells" 😉
No way I'm reading all that so apologies if I'm repeating. I have a couple of cycle specific fleece backed softshells, generally wear a baselayer but you would not have to. Dont know if they do zip on'off sleeves.
Have a look at 7 mesh and also alpinestars
How so? It is almost the definition in my book!
Because, as the link in your OP describes, and much discussed here, the original concept for a soft shell was pile fibre inner with a pertex outer...Gore N2S was neither of those things. So not by mr Kirkpatricks description is it?
Maybe you’re looking at the wrong material? And really you just need a slightly weightier jersey? Which is after all, what the N2S was in reality
I think someone said SG Orkaan
https://stolengoat.com/product-category/mens/?filter_collection=orkaan
Because, as the link in your OP describes, and much discussed here, the original concept for a soft shell was pile fibre inner with a pertex outer…Gore N2S was neither of those things. So not by mr Kirkpatricks description is it?
I just went back and reread it. It doesn't say that at all and neither did I. I thought that I had been clear that what I consider to be softshell is the theory (single garment, next to skin, no layers, wicking lining, windproof outer, effective moisture removal, weather resistant, wide comfort range) not an item made by a spcecific manufacturer.
It my mind it covers everything from thin and lightweight stretch fabrics (Schoeller?) through the Montane/Buffalo pile/pertex kit all the way to wearing a polar bear inside out. The Gore N2S was more like the Schoeller fabrics than inverted polar bear.
And really you just need a slightly weightier jersey? Which is after all, what the N2S was in reality
Sigh, it really wasn't. I literally have it in my hands now while I try to see if I can repair it one last time and it most definately isn't "like a weightier jersey".
I have an old Ground Effect top of which Matt describes. I think it's a Baked Alaska or equivalent. It's my most worn top. You could probably wear it next 2 skin. I wear a base layer under it, short or long sleeved depending on temperature. It's a really good bit of kit as are the other Ground Effect things I have. Shame they are in New Zealand.
Fair point. I'm actually sitting here wearing Schoeller trousers. The same fabric would work well as a jacket, though it would need to be fairly tight fitting to wick well.
Huh, shows we’re all different I suppose. I thought the N2S was OK for winter wear, waaaay too hot for anything else, and was a sweaty bag to boot.
@igm and whoever else suggested the Orkaan - thanks, it looks closer than anything else i have seen. How do they size up?
[EDIT] - their colour schemes aren't for the faint hearted! I may have to paint everything else black to compensate!
Jesus I started reading that Kirkpatrick article but I'm amazed anyone can get through it. I used to think I was nerdy about outdoor gear. I think for him it's fair enough as it might keep him alive for but bike rides for fun I think you are massively over-thinking this. Each to their own though.
I'm starting to suspect that our faith in "technical" adventure clothing is just another fetish, one that owes more to the logic of consumerism than our desire to be in the great outdoors.
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2010/nov/25/outdoor-gear-bad-science-ugly
BTW in that AK article he says 'there is no concrete definition' of a softshell
Orkaan – thanks, it looks closer than anything else i have seen. How do they size up?
I found the chest and waist a bit slacker than expected and the arms a little tighter. 40” chest meant I needed a medium for road riding - large would have been ok off road. The arm warmers are large and I could perhaps go XL.
My ego was massaged
PS I believe it’s made by BioRacer
Jesus I started reading that Kirkpatrick article but I’m amazed anyone can get through it. I used to think I was nerdy about outdoor gear. I think for him it’s fair enough as it might keep him alive for but bike rides for fun I think you are massively over-thinking this. Each to their own though.
Maybe. I guess I had what I considered to be the best bit of kit I've ever used and now have to make do with what I consider to be inferior alternatives. If I had never owned one I probably wouldn't be missing it.
BTW in that AK article he says ‘there is no concrete definition’ of a softshell
Well, no, people will always quibble about the fine details, but somethings would definitely be considered softshell while other wouldn't.
it most definately isn’t “like a weightier jersey
yeah, that’s exactly what it was, plus it was ridiculously easily damaged. Anyway have a look at Rukka, they’re a motorcycle clothing company that do windstopper stuff, they might have something that suits
Also Morvélo, they do a couple of things that might suit.
the Trucker, which is a flannel shirt look a like, but is stretchy windproof and water repellant and they do a more trad looking jersey the Fuse which they describe as an all weather softshell not unlike the N2S in design
In my experience, having owned the old Gore Phantom like you (washed it so much it eventually shrank!), I tried lots of different jackets before settling on a Rab Alpine Vapor Rise Jacket. It is light, exceptionally breathable and as warm as I need it to be. It feels lovely next to skin too. The new model now has a helmet compatible hood and two Napoleon pockets. It is more wind resistant than windproof but that is part of what makes it so good for cycling, climbing, walking etc.
I recently invested in a Mountain Eqpt Switch Pro. This is Alpha Direct and Pertex with strategically placed fleece on the arms and the sides. I was out on Sunday with the temp around zero and it was just the right mix of warmth and windproofness. It has two hand pockets and a stretch hood.
Compared to my old Gore, they are light years better in terms of cut, fit and performance. I always found the zip off sleeves a faff. A good idea that I never really felt the need to use.
Personally, I keep coming back to the conclusion that when it comes to mountain biking, actual cycling clothes are a bit of a let down compared to what you get from the likes of Rab, ME and Montane.
Hope this helps?
Cheers
Sanny
Oh I should add for sub zero days, I wear a POC windproof shell over the top of the Rab and it is absolutely spot on in keeping me warm without overheating and not cooling down too quickly when I stop riding. The windproof packs down to a tiny ball but as a layering system, nothing else I have tried has come close. The ME jacket is a bit warmer but given that it is designed for the likes of ski touring, is a terrific other option. Sizes small though. I should be a medium according to ME. I had to exchange for a large as the anorexic gimp fit was not flattering!
Cheers @sanny much appreciated.
Personally, I keep coming back to the conclusion that when it comes to mountain biking, actual cycling clothes are a bit of a let down compared to what you get from the likes of Rab, ME and Montane.
Very much this.
“ The closest I have come is a merino baselayer with a pertex shell but it still isn’t as good as the N2S fabric.”
Merino is hopeless when it comes to wicking etc. It soaks up sweat until it gets overwhelmed. And it’ll soak in rain until it gets overwhelmed. Good until those points but bad afterwards.
Try a Brynje base layer until a simple wind resistant shell. Mr Kirkpatrick is a fan too, review here and link to his article from there: https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/clothing/baselayers/brynje-super-thermo-c-shirt-baselayer-review/
Def intrigued by brynje baselayer. Will pick one up when they are back in stock.
Brynje is excellent. Looks awful but works so damn well!
The closest I have come is a merino baselayer with a pertex shell but it still isn’t as good as the N2S fabric.
Could I encourage you to try a modern synthetic baselayer with good windproof shell?
I like Merino, I've lots of it. But it's not the best for wicking when sweating.
I'm still a huge fan of Patagonia Capeline light or midweight, ideally in long sleeve with a zip... Nothing shifts moisture as efficiently.
