My Gore Phantom from 2002 has finally and irretrievably given up the ghost. I've bought replacements for it over the years but nothing was ever as good so it was repeatedly brought out of retirement. Now the main zip has torn out of the front, the face fabric is almost see through and it smells like I died in it a long time ago.
So please, what would match up to it? My main issue is that most things sold as softshell aren't, and as a result don't have the same degree of comfort and use. To be honest I'm a bit belligerent/evangelical (aka right) about the whole softshell thing; if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn't actually a softshell. Me and Andy Kirkpatrick are cut from the same cloth on this one. All of my mountaineering kit is softshell for the very good reason that it works so well compared to layering (and then either stopping every five minutes to add, remove or change a layer or just being uncomfortable) in practically every circumstance I have found myself in outside of a rain storm.
The Gore Phantom 2 would have been the obvious call but it wasn't designed to be worn next to the skin, was cut to fit Shrek and seemed aimed at roadies. I lasted 2 rides before it got passed on. The new c3 version seems similar. The next best thing is a Polaris Enduro something or other but it is very thick and hot so only really work in temps around freezing.
TL;DR?
recommend me a softshell for mtb
Criteria :
Wear next to skin, no base layer. I am not interested in layering.
Windproof
Highly breathable
3 season use
Ideally zip off arms
No pockets anywhere
Ambivalent about hoods
To be honest I’m a bit belligerent/evangelical (aka right) about the whole softshell thing
Given that you're right why do you need suggestions? Surely in your mind you have the perfect solution already?
🤦
This will just be another thread where every suggestion that matches your bizarre criteria will be rejected
Given that you’re right why do you need suggestions? Surely in your mind you have the perfect solution already?
Yes, it was the now discontinued Gore Phantom. Also, I apologise for not pointing out the sarcasm so that you didn't miss it.
This will just be another thread where every suggestion that matches your bizarre criteria will be rejected
Given that the original phantom fulfilled these criteria it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
I've scoured the Internet and can't find a replacement, I'm interested to know if anybody else has.
Who wears jackets with nothing underneath? Really?
The original Phantom was labelled N2S (Next to Skin). They stopped making them about 12 years ago (maybe more).
The later Phantoms really are a jacket and I find them a bit baggy. I do have one but rarely wear it.
I can't offer any suggestions though. I always wear a baselayer, even under a summer jersey.
you want the jacket chips is wearing in his piece on the ripley. it’s not made anymore, either.
but wind proof soft shell jersey, 7mesh do a full wind stopper and hybrid jerseys that may fit the bill. more of a road fit, but fit they will.
decathlon also have soft shell hybrid jackets that could be worth trying on if there is a store close by.
edit: zip off arms, this always makes me think of pear izumi. they may have something suitable
Rab vapour rise ridge line:
https://rab.equipment/uk/vr-ridgeline-jacket
Roll the sleeves up instead of removing them?
It sounds like you really want a Buffalo jacket...
The later Phantoms really are a jacket and I find them a bit baggy. I do have one but rarely wear it.
+1
Mine N2S ended up as my workshop top, but it died late last year. The Mk2 I wear occasionally, but it's not warm enough nor wind proof enough for a long sleeve jacket.
I do still have the N2S short-sleeve version, perfect for days where short-sleeves are the answer but you want to keep out the wind. Threadbare is an understatement though.
And to answer the originally ask, nope, not found anything that gets close.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll take a look at them.
The reason for wearing without a base layer is that sweat is much more effectively removed by a true softshell like Buffalo or montane smocks or the original phantom. A base layer actually stops them working as well. The things marketed as softshells these days do need a base layer as they are scratchy next to the skin but are really part of the layering system school of thinking rather than true softshells.
I'd love a biking Buffalo or equivalent from montane but I run hot and I can't wear my lighter weight Buffalo for mountain biking when temps are above freezing. Works fine for my winter commute though.
The Marmot Driclime stuff is worth a look too.
Montane, Buffalo, Patagonia, Trax and Arcteryx are all making these kinds of products
From the article you linked to in your OP. Nothing on their websites?
I commute in summer with a phantom (might be a II, no sure) and wear it bare below, it's the one that has zip off sleeves, and it's like a soft layer inside.
Only in summer though.
Have found this on the gore site, has anybody used one?
Paramo Velez jacket/smock (sleeves don't zip off but more than enough pit zip to negate the need).
If you run 'hot' then the Quito would be the one to use. The Quito I know is comfy next to skin, Velez should be but I've not tried it.
OP - out of interest, does Polartech Alpha fall into the 'meant to be used with a base' camp for you? Expect it does/is, easier to sell that concept than the next-to-skin thing.
I always found Buffalo / Montane lacking in that n-t-s format if they didn't fit really well but then again I don't really find overheating an issue.
FWIW a few places like Uniqlo and Decathlon make good approximations of light buffalo style linings in their jackets. OH has one with a windproof outer, was ~£30 in Uniqlo. Perhaps not the same functionally in the wet as a Buffalo but I've also found the Decathlon Forclaz version of Primaloft gilets to be excellent so I wouldn't assume anything.
The reason for wearing without a base layer is that sweat is much more effectively removed by a true softshell like Buffalo or montane smocks or the original phantom. A base layer actually stops them working as well. The things marketed as softshells these days do need a base layer as they are scratchy next to the skin but are really part of the layering system school of thinking rather than true softshells.
I think your understanding of the breadth of what is a 'softshell' is quite narrow.
I also think you know what you want - just go find it.
What's the point in it being a zip open jacket if you're not going to wear anything under it? Surely a midlayer style fleecy thing like a Rab Nexus makes more sense.
How is this different to a Perfetto or Stolen Goat Orkaan?
My Orkaan short sleeve can definitely be worn next to skin, not sure if the long sleeve is the same cut.
I got an ion bike scrub amp soft shell. Soo comfy, multi stretch, good pockets and shower proof
What’s the point in it being a zip open jacket if you’re not going to wear anything under it? Surely a midlayer style fleecy thing like a Rab Nexus makes more sense.
IME softshells can be quite warm, vent works to dump some heat, plenty roadies do the same. I assume the OP is looking for something windproof, pretty sure the Rab isn't.
Great thread.
I look forward to learning more about how I've been doing softshells wrong all these years. because I don't have the same obscure, out-of-production garment as the OP.
Funny enough I shared this old pic of me wearing a softshell without a base layer yesterday...
Almost certainly not what the OP wants.
I’m not sure any next-to-skin softshell works as well as a Brynje base layer under a windproof with plenty of vents. Both look equally stupid when you get warm and start having to expose yourself. And I’ve spent years of my life in Buffalo shirts (and also worn Paramo next to the skin after a sunburn emergency).
Pile/Pertex clothing like Buffalo and Montane pre-date the term "softshell". You may need to rethink your definition of softshell.
Could you send your old favourite to those nice folk at Jurassic Park? They could take a DNA sample and clone it for you
😜
That photo reminds me I've got a lovely soft shell jacket that I used as a one-layer system many years ago as I have a similar photo. Waterproof, soft inside, fitted cut. No you can't have it (ok maybe you cna but it's a small or medium and black).
Made by Protective, and bought from EBC. I think they were a bit of a CX brand.
“...if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn’t actually a softshell. Me and Andy Kirkpatrick are cut from the same cloth on this one.”
If you read that article properly, rather than let your own bias misinterpret it, you’ll find that the cloth he is cut from doesn’t mind being over a base layer.
Those evangelists don't half waffle on a bit.
Now the main zip has torn out of the front, the face fabric is almost see through and it smells like I died in it a long time ago.
Could you send your old favourite to those nice folk at Jurassic Park? They could take a DNA sample and clone it for you
Sounds like they might end up cloning OP by accident?
Sorry I don't have much in the way of useful suggestions. I have a RAB Vapor Rise (so-called, ha!) softshell which I would be happy to wear next to my skin, although I haven't done it in anger. I've found it good for me for MTB but sadly it hasn't stood up so well to a year of gritty backpack use. Because I like it so well for walking and camping I've retired it from MTB duties before I kill it prematurely!
I thought i knew what a softshell was.
I even thought i owned two (Madison and Berghaus).
But now i realise I was wrong.
The word "softshell" is useless. It just has too broad a definition. I think my first was a Mountain Equipment Pertex/Microfleece jacket. I still have it actually, zip-off sleeves and all. It would be perfect for the OP but it was only in production for a couple of years.
if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn’t actually a softshell
see, to me, this level of closed mindedness just excludes so much decent clothing as to be seriously blinkered. You could get exactly the same effect with a light weight pile beneath a pertex shell, that they are two pieces of clothing and not joined together is irrelevant. In fact with a separate wicking layer you can very the effect (of wicking) to suit the conditions...heresy!
The gore stuff is great and no need to try it on first for me anyway I must be their template for a L
It's always the zip or cuffs that would go first but I tend to wear them with a base layer or t shirt if just out walking
Amazon occasionally gives great bargains but a lottery due to the sizing sometimes £50 of difference between a large and a small no idea how that works
Andy Kirkpatrick knows his stuff through experience but when I want advice I go straight to this guy
There are two items that'll work great for you in the next to skin category
micro pile lined tops - Rab VR, Marmot Driclime. I have a couple of Rab VR tops, get the lite version or it'll be too hot. They're designed to be wind resistant, not wind proof, so are very breathable
alpha tops - OK next to skin. Something like raw alpha with a windshirt, or a top designed around alpha. there are different weights and they're combined with different outers depending on usage
I've been searching for the same thing as you for years, not found it yet and not sure the perfect thing exists from bike brands. In climbing/ mountaineering world I'm amazed by a Rab Alpha Direct jacket that is close to what you're after in terms of being comfortable against skin and great across a range of temperatures, it's so soft and wicks exceptionally...but it's not a bike cut and has a hood. Also a big fan of Mountain Equipment Exolite non-membrane soft-shell for warmer conditions but again its not a bike cut, likewise Rab's Vapourise stretch is very close to ideal and could work.
The closest I've seen in mtb world (not counting skin tight roadie cuts) is the Rapha Brevet Insulated Jacket with Polartec Alpha, or a very similar Alpha jacket from 'Pedalled', 7Mesh also do one that could be mighty close. These have super lightweight face fabrics though to breathe well so only really suitable if your concept of Mtb is tending towards gravel as it will shred in a fall or could easily tear on branches - plus, Polartec Alpha is great if hovering around freezing. Above 5Degs it may be too warm.
see, to me, this level of closed mindedness just excludes so much decent clothing as to be seriously blinkered. You could get exactly the same effect with a light weight pile beneath a pertex shell, that they are two pieces of clothing and not joined together is irrelevant. In fact with a separate wicking layer you can very the effect (of wicking) to suit the conditions…heresy!
As a Montane/Rab/Buffalo user for almost 30 years I can assure you that it doesn't work as well. This is what I have been experimenting with for the last few years on the bike out of desperation and have come to the conclusion that to work properly the wicking pile/microfleece needs to be attached to the pertex style shell for full effect.
“…if it needs a baselayer to be comfortable or pleasant to use it isn’t actually a softshell. Me and Andy Kirkpatrick are cut from the same cloth on this one.”
If you read that article properly, rather than let your own bias misinterpret it, you’ll find that the cloth he is cut from doesn’t mind being over a base layer.
I have worn a base layer under mine on occasion (very cold dry environment) but, and this is crucial, you don't need to for it to be comfortable and it is more effective at keeping you dry in a damp environment without. So I would say that I did read the article properly and you missed the entire point.
Thanks for all of the suggestions of Polartec Alpha or specific models from manufacturers to look at, I will have a browse over the weekend. I still find it strange that a technology ideally suited to high exertion activity has been adopted by almost every aspect of the outdoor community except mountain biking.
I think your problem is that you're in a minority, what you're describing as working for you doesn't work for me. I can wear my buffalo shirt when walking for four or five months of the year but for mountain biking it's generally too warm. In fact in 20+ years this is the first time I've worn it on the bike, I've worn it three times in the last month when temps have been around freezing and it's been wet. I now have a system of layers that works really well with a bit of tweaking, for all other conditions. I think a single layer isn't flexible enough for most people. I had an Endura convert jacket that seemed like a good idea but was too compromised. At the end of the day manufacturers can't cater to everybodys whims.
One issue for Polartec Alpha that's not immediately obvious is that the face fabric's tend to be so light that it's very difficult to incorporate decent pockets into the garment, I tend to carry tools/ tube pump in a back pocket which would be too much for flimsy Alpha Face fabric - though there are obviously other carrying solutions. The other big issue being that Polartec Alpha is ridiculously expensive, in fact Rab seem to have dropped Alpha Direct and do their own version this year maybe for that reason. It also doesn't have so great shelf appeal as it appears too light to offer warmth/ protection...but if you know what you want from a garment as per that Kirkpatrick article, you'll understand that the concept works well.
The 7Mesh Freeflow does seem to have a slightly tougher face fabric, Rapha seems perennially out of stock, Pedalled ships from Italy with all associated BWord nonsense and fit could be a gamble...
So "proper softshell" is actually fleece-backed pertex?
Wore a pertex jacket (used to be my only MTB jacket for years) the other week, it was awful compared to modern (not)softshell jackets - and not any more water-repellent.
Castelli Perfetto is probably closest to the original Gore Phanton, both windstopper fabric, both close fit.
Windstopper though is closer to a hard-shell than the concepts mentioned above of Alpha, Vapourise, Buffalo. It has its place for sure but it'll never breathe to the same extent as other more active fabrics, which is why in mountaineering world they've mostly consigned full windstopper type jackets to dog walking duties. Its terribly subjective though, maybe if one has the sweat rate of a Prince Andrew then a layer of porous cling film may work, but if you like to get your pace on in cold conditions and sweat loads then more comfortable alternatives are available...
Polartec Alpha is ridiculously expensive, in fact Rab seem to have dropped Alpha Direct and do their own version this year
What jacket is that @endoverend?
"I have worn a base layer under mine on occasion (very cold dry environment) but, and this is crucial, you don’t need to for it to be comfortable and it is more effective at keeping you dry in a damp environment without. So I would say that I did read the article properly and you missed the entire point."
No, you're missing the point. I got a Buffalo S6 in 1994 and it got used for everything outdoorsy (when it wasn't too warm) and I never wore a base layer until its latter days as daily workwear. Night exercises, skiing, caving, MTBing, walking, canoeing etc. Also commuting and later on wearing it every day for work for most of the year. Literally wore it out, zip pulls broken, velcro falling off, frayed edges, various rips. Retired it in 2013, so it's now tucked into a cubbyhole in my car boot, along with the hood and mitts, for emergencies. Had some S6 trousers too. And a belay jacket. And I've never owned a conventional waterproof bar a tiny emergency cycling one. And yes, it works best without a base layer.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that there aren't better solutions. Have you tried a (hideous) Brynje mesh base layer under a windproof or uninsulated softshell? It's even better unless it's super cold. When it's warmer I use a conventional base layer so I can take off the windproof without looking like I should be at a bondage night.
Although Alpha Direct looks like a better version of Buffalo I'm sure it's too warm for much MTBing use and definitely not tough enough.
@chakaping - "pertex" is a brand name, not a product. There are LOADS of different variations that do different things - quantum, microlight, endurance etc
Some are waterproof, some are windproof, some are resistant etc
Surely even the word 'softshell' is indicative of the fact it's meant to be worn as an outer layer, ie over something? Where does one go to find the true path to softshell enlightenment?
BTW my Patagonian Dirt Roamer jacket is called a softshell, but I wouldn't really call it one. 🙂
It’s weird, something that was designed 30 years ago to move people out of rigid thinking about protective clothing has itself over time become its own rigid and inflexible set of rules about what to wear.
