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As the above really - I don’t know if I’ve been unlucky or am just too heavy for a wheel I’ve got.
Mason x Hunt 4 seasons wheels. Front has been perfect, the back has been a bit troublesome. To put it in context in the first few weeks of having the wheelset I ploughed the back wheel into a massive pot hole - I didn’t puncture the tyre - but I buckled the section of the rim writing it off.
I had the hub rebuilt onto a new crash replacement Hunt rim with the same spokes.
Since then the bike shop replaced a snapped spoke, and I’ve replaced another snapped one. At the last point I spoke tension metered the wheel as I redid it with a new spoke and it was running true, and the tension was within spec (according to a park tension meter which I appreciate probably isn’t the most accurate thing going but gives a guide).
I snapped another spoke on the way to work this morning (each time it’s been in a different place in the wheel) - the nipple is fine - it’s snapped off below the thread of the spoke.
I’m thinking maybe it’s time to bite the billet and rebuild the wheel with entirely new spikes and nipples.
My thought is though - should I use pillar spokes like the originals or just go with a bigger brand like ACI or DT Swiss? Thinking just normal black double butted spokes - nothing overly light or fancy
My experience is that once they begin to go you end up chasing broken spokes around a rim until you do what you're suggesting and replace the lot.
In terms of brand - if they're visibly the same as the ones on the other wheel I'd just pick whichever are cheapest. There's a guy who does Halo spokes on ebay - I've built a few wheels with these and had no problems. Sapim D-Light have been good too. Both are usually cheaper than the 'main brand' alternatives.
Had a look at halo on eBay and they’re 99p each for double butted ones. ACI are 0.45 each from cycle basket (they come with silver nipples so I’ll have to spend an extra £1.80 for 30 black brass nipples on top). Think they will just about be cheapest for decent spokes after postage.
I think a rebuild is on the cards - I’m not up for chasing broken spokes continually round the wheel - plus I’m nervous every time I commute on my road bike at the moment!
Check the price of Sapim Race (double butted 2/1.8), they are decent and cheaper RRP than DT Comps.
If its snapping at the nipple how does the spoke angle look?
joebristol: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263751214009?ul_noapp=true is where I get them but still more than 45p each.
@bigyan it looks ok - it’s a 24 spoke wheel and 2 cross in the pattern it came from the manufacturer.
I think the max spoke tensions specified are fairly low - and when I retentioned the wheel I stuck within those.
I will ring Hunt today and find out the spoke lengths required and talk to them about replacements. If the pillar spokes are v expensive I’m going to go aci as I’ve build wheels successfully with those before.
@bigyan - always found Spain more expensive then either DT Swiss or aci.
That’s getting aci from
Cycle basket in Wales or DT Swiss from Rose Bikes.
How do you stress relieve your wheels?
Do you set the spoke path at the nipple?
I didn’t build these wheels - they came built from Hunt.
@alexnharvey - With the mtb wheels I’ve built (I haven’t built a road wheel myself yet) I put them on the floor on a large piece of cardboard and stand / bounce on the spokes in pairs so they click etc. I saw it on a video from a wheel builder who is on the pro myb / DH circuit. So far so good with that technique. Not sure if that’s a bit brutal for a more delicate road wheel with less spokes / a thinner rim?
Oh, sorry, I thought you'd rebuilt it yourself.
Applying pressure to pairs of spokes is a good means of stress relief, although I squeeze by hand rather than stand on it.
The reason I asked about setting the path is because your last breakage was below the nipple. Jobst Brandt recommends setting the path here at low tension by squeezing one pair on the same side towards each other so they take a set and then run straight rather than curving which can lead to fatigue and breaking below the nipple or at least on that upper portion.
Nothing wrong with any of the major spoke manufacturers pillar inclusive. The problem is reusing spokes, they are fatigued so will break if re-laced into a new rim
Personally I will never reuse spokes as I know I’ll have to build it again Properly shortly in future
Hope that helps
Neil. SuperstarComponents
Thanks @superstarcomponents and @alexnharvey
I’ll buy a complete set of the cheapest (decent branded) black double butted spokes and brass nipples.
Looks like aci so will go with those - just need to check the lengths required. From the serial number of the hunt replacement spokes I wonder if they’re 282mm and 284mm.
The problem is reusing spokes, they are fatigued so will break if re-laced into a new rim
Oof, controversial!
I've re-rimmed many a hard ridden MTB wheel (back in the days of winter night riding in the mud with V-Brakes requiring fresh Mavic XC717 rims every spring...) with DT double butted spokes, no problems.
I think many others will relate the same, in fact I remember magazines doing how-to articles and advising just taping the new rim to old and swapping spoke by spoke until you're done.
I think in principle it's pretty hard to work-harden a good quality steel spoke, but my shaky materials science knowledge has been proven wrong before...
Do you set the spoke path at the nipple?
How do you do this? I've heard of gently pressing the outer spokes against the hub flange to help them find their shape, but how would you do this at the nipple?
It depends if you take them out and rebuild or if you swap them over without taking them out of the hub.
The bike shop taped the rims together and swapped them spoke by spoke as far as I’m aware. So they should have settled into each other / the hub in exactly the same way with the new rim as it was identical.
But they seem to all snap in the same way just below the nipple.
Seems the spokes are 282 non Drive side / 280 Drive side / 12mm nipples if anyone needs this in future
I’ll buy a complete set of the cheapest (decent branded) black double butted spokes and brass nipples. Looks like aci
Sounds like you've probably used them before, but the one time I used ACI black spokes, I ended up with black hands and slightly less black spokes. I'm not a fan of ACI… I stick to DT for decent wheels and Halo if I'm saving some pennies. YMMV.
But they seem to all snap in the same way just below the nipple.
Hmm. What length nipples? I'd have thought longer ones might exacerbate this problem (as might non-offset drillings and poor quality spokes).
The problem is reusing spokes, they are fatigued so will break if re-laced into a new rim
It's been 25 years since I was doing this stuff, so I may well be off the mark, but will a single cycle of destressing the spoke be a significant factor when it sees (smaller) cycles a couple of times a second or so during usage? I can see plenty of reasons not to just take spokes from a wheel and put them back in the spares box for future use, but I'm not sure a like-for-like rim replacement should cause a fatigue issue…
The problem is reusing spokes, they are fatigued so will break if re-laced into a new rim
Really?!
OP when you say below the nipples do you mean literally where the spoke contacts the lip of the nipple or the bottom of the threads? Could the spokes be right on the edge of to long and the threads of the nipples are jammed down causing a stress riser?
Sounds like you’ve probably used them before, but the one time I used ACI black spokes, I ended up with black hands and slightly less black spokes. I’m not a fan of ACI
I didn’t get black hands with the wheelset I built with them - they seemed much the same as the DT Swiss competitions I built my current mtb nice wheelset with. Although the squorx nipples were nicer to build with than the aci ones as the driver is easy to locate the nipples in the rim with.
Hmm. What length nipples? I’d have thought longer ones might exacerbate this problem (as might non-offset drillings and poor quality spokes).
12mm brass nipples and stainless steel butted pillar spokes out to have been ok I’d think. 2.0-1.6-2.0 butting with a 2.2mm head.
OP when you say below the nipples do you mean literally where the spoke contacts the lip of the nipple or the bottom of the threads? Could the spokes be right on the edge of to long and the threads of the nipples are jammed down causing a stress riser?
I don’t think it’s snapped at the thread - they were screwed up tightly and with no thread showing. In this case I manhandled the old spoke out via bending and discarded it in disgust! The other spokes I looked at more carefully and don’t think it was at the thread.
I’m wondering whether to buy squorx nipples instead of the standard aci ones as they have the rounded base on that lets them pivot slightly in the spoke direction - although maybe that won’t sit that nicely without the phr washers that come with the fancy DT Swiss rims I’ve used relatively recently.
I’ve gone ahead and ordered black double butted aci spokes and black brass nipples to go with them. I did wonder about using the DT Swiss prolock nipples but searching online views about using threadlocked nipples varied.
Fingers crossed road wheels are as easy as mtb wheels to build and get evenly tensioned / true.
I’m thinking I’ll stick a bit of tape on the rim by the valve and loosen all the existing spokes and replace 1 by one in exactly the same pattern so the angles / position they leave the hub etc are all exactly the same as the original build. I just need to sort out rim tape as they have some kind of fairly rigid continental rim strip in at the moment and it didn’t like being removed the last time so probably need a new one.
Can’t see the point using tubeless tape as I don’t plan to go tubeless on the road anytime soon - plus the tyres aren’t compatible and are still relatively new.
I only use ACI/Aplina F1 spokes, they are cheap and so far they've been reliable, TBH I think the wheel building technique is more important that spoke quality (as long as the spoke is from a reputable brand).
I built a set of MTB wheels a year ago and so far so good.
I also laced my rear commuter wheel with them. I use panniers and carry a laptop, so it gets quite beaten in Londons pot holes, been using it for 3 years with no issues, this was the first wheel I ever built so it wasn't (and still isn't) perfect.
Really?!
One of those times when the theory doesn't line up with the real world. You can shout at an old wheel till your blue in the face that the spoke shouldn't be snapping, and yet, once one's gone, the rest inevitably follow in quick succession.
Given the relative costs of rims, hubs and spokes, just get new DT's from the Germans, it works out at less than a fiver per wheel.
Yeah, I’ve built 1 wheelset with aci, 1’eith cheapie Halo straight gauge spokes and the 3rd wheelset with DT Swiss competitions and squorx nipples / phr washers.
I actually sold the halo spoked ones before using them as it was a practice wheelset with cheap bits in anticipation of the DT Swiss spokes wheelset using Hope Hunds and DT XM481 rims.
The aci wheelset was also fairly cheap bits (wtb sti25 rims for £12 each, a £35 xt rear hub and superstar £30’ish front hub) and I ride that for a while in my 26er hardtail and they seemed to last well before I moved up to 650b and a new frame etc on that bike.
That first build was just by hand with no dish stick or tension meter but I now have both and found them useful on the latter 2 wheel builds. Mostly just made it quicker to get up to an even tension.
Replaced the spokes and nipples on the wheel now - just need to do the tricky bit now and get it straight / tensioned / dishes right etc.
The aci spokes feel more substantial than the pillar ones - the thin section of the pillar spokes goes nearer to the end of the spoke before sizing up to the thicker part of the butting.
Hopefully once done I won’t have any further dramas.
24hole is a low spoke count for a disc rear wheel. You can certainly understand why each time a spoke breaks, it’s putting massive load into the other spokes.
Remember, if they’re anywhere near max tension (even 70-80%) then when one goes, it’s load isn’t transferred evenly to the rest, it will be shifted primarily to the adjacent spokes, likely increasing their load well beyond max.
Yeah, it’s not a lot of spokes, I didn’t really look that hard at the detail before speccing them.
Max rider weight is 100kgs and thy my recommend frequent retentioning I’d you’re 90kgs or more. I’m just over 80kgs I think so not at the limit and the bike doesn’t carry luggage - just a backpack with a change of clothes / laptop.
The Aci spokes feel more robust / have more material in them as well as obviously being new and not stressed by a big impact thy at crumpled the profile of the original rim a bit.
Have to see how it goes once done.
They have a max tension of the spokes from Hunt and I have a spoke tension meter so my aim will be to keep the highest tension side of the wheel well within that.
@joebristol Was the concept of setting the spoke line at the nipple clear enough to you that you were able to do it during your build? It is achieved most easily when the wheel is laced and at low tension. I think given the failures you described having it would be a very good idea.
Figure 33 on page 73 from the third edition of the Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt shows it very clearly. If the nipple is not able to articulate enough in the rim to point directly at the corresponding hub hole he suggests making the spoke bend just below the nipple so that it then follows a straight line to the hub rather than being in a gentle curve. If left in a curve it will flex on every rotation and eventually fail due to fatigue, normally failing just below the nipple...
My experience is that once they begin to go you end up chasing broken spokes around a rim until you do what you’re suggesting and replace the lot.
I pointed this out to a cycling buddy, who had replaced a couple of spokes. He ended up having to buy a new wheel when we were touring in France last month.
@joebristol Was the concept of setting the spoke line at the nipple clear enough to you that you were able to do it during your build? It is achieved most easily when the wheel is laced and at low tension. I think given the failures you described having it would be a very good idea.
Not entirely clear on how to do it - but when dismantling the wheel spoke by spoke I get the issue. Some of the spokes almost seems a bit bent as they came out of the nipples.
At the moment I’ve only lightly nipped e new spokes up - still got about 3 or 4 threads showing of the spokes where they join the nipples.
Next job is to lightly tap / bend the spokes over the hub flanges - I’ll try and have a look at that guide you’ve mentioned around nipple directioning. It sounds like a similar thing to the bend at the hub flanges.
Yep, very similar concept. You're setting the spoke line at each end to reduce fatigue. It can normally be achieved by a hand squeeze, squeezing a single pair of spokes on the same side together just below the nipples.
Ok, thanks, I’m hoping to have a go for an hour or so at the wheel this weekend if I get time. It’s my commute bike Sonos ideally like to use it next week for a few days.
I haven’t ever had an issue before with spoke angles - but all 3 wheel sets have been 32 spoke ones so the angles from hub to rim have presumably been less extreme than on a 24 spoke one.