[Closed] Physiology 101 for a dunce please.

This isn't my area of expertise so I'm happy to be corrected, but I would say this is most likely to be a lack of fuel problem. Your body stores energy for rapid access as liver and muscle glycogen which is a long chain carbohydrate synthesised in the body from glucose and broken back down to glucose in response to low blood sugar. Glucose comes from both simple sugars and starches. If you're on a low carb diet your glycogen stores are likely to be low and therefore more rapidly depleted. In the absence of glucose the body breaks down other substrates one of which is muscle protein which provides a more ready source of energy than body fat (expect brown fat which adults don't have a lot of).
I would suggest that the lack of lactic burn you've experienced is due to the fact that you run out of energy substrate before you reach your anaerobic threshold.

I think....

Andy, that's really useful, thanks.
I thought it odd that I was finding tough climbs less painful, but I wasnt necessarily cleaning them better. Which seemed counter-intuitive.

- wot andy sed.

OK, so what's the solution? I remember iDave mentioning taking on carbs if exercising for more than two hours or something, but I usually only ride 1 to 1.5 hrs a night - admittedly a bit hard and grunty being an SS on Malvern, not much scope for bimbling.

OK, so what's the solution?

Eat more carbs, innit?

I'm about to have rice and meat.

OK, so what's the solution?

Gears! 🙂

OK, so what's the solution?

apart from gears and pasta, smartarses! 😉

Beer?

More an invitation than a suggestion...Cask reopens tomorrow.... a rather intriguing Thornbridge aged in sherry casks among the early year highlights I gather. It own over the next couple of weeks?
.

Embrace the fat!

Stoner - Member

OK, so what's the solution? I remember iDave mentioning taking on carbs if exercising for more than two hours or something, but I usually only ride 1 to 1.5 hrs a night - admittedly a bit hard and grunty being an SS on Malvern, not much scope for bimbling.

Energy gel sachet mid-ride?

Remember seriously running out of "grunt" on a climb in the summer, two or three weeks after I had started iDieting and was sticking to it fairly rigorously. Was on a group ride and started making a breakaway - from the wrong end of the group.

Someone offered me an energy gel sachet and ten minutes later the grunt had returned - and I didn't feel like I'd contravened any of the iron laws of the iDiet, since it was an in-ride refuel and I was still expending more calories than I was taking in.

Beer?

I ride from pub to pub. Beer carbs are covered 😉
Will let you know when Im able to get to The Cask one night.

OK, will go for carb gels. I love torq ones, they work brilliantly, but I try and save them for big days out rather than evening rides. Idave will shoot me though eh? 😉

Sorry you all must be on about a different iDiet as the iDave one isn't a low carb one. It's just different carbs.

I can't really make any firm diagnosis on one experience in one ride. It could have been muscles not recovered from something else. All sorts of possibles.

Also, the diet, allows for taking on simple carbs during and after long rides.

Bear in mind it was put out there for hefty chaps on STW who weren't exactly 'active'.....

taking on simple carbs during and after long rides.

that may cover it. I guess compounding some tough rides might have depleted reserves a bit.

OK, so to help me understand what things feel like, what is it that causes the lactic burn if it isnt running out of fuel?

PS - sorry if I sound a bit of a tard over all of this, I genuinely have never ever paid the slightest attention to the details of "fitness" despite Mrs S being a marathon-running, nationally-ranked run-junky. I've just been doing a lot more riding than Ive ever done in the past over the last 6 months, and pretty hard too, and trying the iDiet to drop from 95 to 85Kg (6'4")

lactate is used as a fuel, especially by heart muscle. it's not the bad guy

sometimes the brain gets a bit nancy and wants to protect you from damage, so it allows you to feel the sensation of fatigue and discomfort to make you reduce the intensity. or, you could have some un-repaired muscle damage from a previous ride or even manual work using the legs (ie planting a million willow saplings etc)

I know enough to know that I don't know for sure what caused the sensation you experienced.

Any ride over 80 mins, can be carb'd, during and after, though in time it can be done on carb stores and fat.

EDIT - I'm aware of Mrs Stoners running ability, and also actually met her about business stuff about 6 years ago. I think you buggered off to the pub to leave us discussing Scandinavian venture capital. And we're all 'tards about something.

so it allows you to feel the sensation of fatigue and discomfort to make you reduce the intensity

does improving your fitness levels reduce your brain's nancy tendencies or do you change physically to produce less lactic acid?

and also actually met her about business stuff about 6 years ago

ooo, intrigued. where did we meet?

combination of those ^^ and you can also over-ride the brain (google 'tim noakes, central governor' - which is a 'theory' but I believe it offers a good understanding of fatigue)

i often argue with my brain and discuss how things really are with my legs when on hard rides/races

met at your house on the steep hill in malvern. I think you were there for about 4 seconds.

iDave is correct - you don't *feel* the lactate - you feel the hydrogen ions (H+) that are released when lactic acid is dissociated. i.e., the H+ causes a change in intracellular pH - and you feel this change in acid-base status - if - bicarbonate doesn't mop up the free H+.

but can you talk your brain out of feeling the burn? I cant. It's very stubborn like that. Or at least it was. I havent had the burn for a few rides. I dont miss it, but it's unnerving.

hmm, that's odd. I feel the burn on every single ride, in fact I love it and seek it out.

LabM - I remember a fascinating conversation with a doctor (english, but in sweden at the time) who waxed lyrical about the brilliance of the Zantac style of heartburn medicines that blocked H+ ion transfer across the gut wall or something.

Maybe I should drink more yoghurt before a ride? 🙂

I think you were there for about 4 seconds.

How odd. Pub must have just opened 🙂
You should come and visit again. We're lower down the hill now.

EDIT: Ha! Just grilled Mrs S. Def a business meeting from ye olden days, so I would have legged it to leave you guys to it. Im impressed you worked that out. How things move on eh? R's doing really well with her running lately, focussing on Tri for the next 3 years, and fortunately come away from the VC viper pit a bit too 😉

A script for the twilight zone: disable the central governor and ride yourself to death....

Haha - don't get me started on the central governor!

I had a long chat with Noakes about it once. After he helped Lewis Pugh swim round Cape Horn.

Its got to the stage where I don't care whether it's 'right or wrong', I just enjoy chatting to 'the governor' about it interfering with my effort at going faster.

while you're in here then, what does ischemic mean and how does it come into exercise?

it just means a decrease in blood supply to tissue - can happen in all sorts of exercise scenarios.

my favourite term is reactive hyperaemia

i also like 2,3-Diphosphoglycerate

I am not really 'here' - I am busy 'working' on something else - I am just flicking back - and, it is a bit too late for a central governor debate.

But if we are brief, ischemia, in what context?

I take it as meaning a restriction in blood flow, in the context of exercise?

exercise scenarios.

There's obviously some exercise scenarios in which you really dont want any decrease in blood supply. but it's probably not fatal 😉

ischemia

came up in one of the many anti-central governor papers that google threw up before getting to Noakes 🙂

If you reduce blood supply to the brain it could be fatal - but 'something else' would make you stop exercise well before the brain has to intervene - for example a reduction in intramuscular phosphocreatine, the accumulation of metabolites (H+, ADP, Pi, H2PO4 etc) or an intolerable change in acid-base status.

Oh god... what are we starting here?!

I was thinking of brewer's droop, but you lab monkies can keep going with the science 😉

Ischaemia refers to a lack of oxygen supply to an organ, such as a muscle, and can occur even with a good blood supply e.g. due to anaemia or lack of oxygen being taken up into the blood in the lungs. Ischaemia can be reversible but will ultimately progress to permanent tissue damage which can be fatal depending on the organ concerned.

Stoner - you made me smile! cheers.

spoke to graham obree at length in 1995 and he explained that he got close to blacking out during a pursuit, had tunnel vision etc, and would be coughing up blood after a final and the hour attempts. i suspect his central governor was bitch-slapped on an on-going basis, in fact he may have had it nuked from orbit.

but can you bring on ischaemia by over exertion in the absence of an aggravating condition?

but can you bring on ischaemia by over exertion in the absence of an aggravating condition?

Probably not. As LabMonkey says, in an otherwise fit individual there are plenty of things that will stop you first. Having said that sudden cardiac death in previous fit people probably has an ischaemic basis on top of a previously undiagnosed and symptom free heart problem.

Cheerful thought for the night....

I shall fwap carefully from now on...

stoner, I'll send you something in the post that will have you moshing up hills like they're not there. as long as you are under 50, don't have a heart condition or high blood pressure you'll be fine.

It may make you a bit manic for a while

oh and it's legal

ooooh, BETD come good?

no this is a magic powder. I've touched your magic ring before crimbo, it's all anodised was going off for a visit to the laser etching chaps so hopefully next few days will see some distribution of SS power!

OK, I think the answer to this in my case is lazy arsed git, however:

I don't feel the burn, pretty much ever. I've never exercised until it hurts and when I try I get what stoner had as my limiting factor - I just run out of power. I ride with a mate who's fitter and faster than me, so I do try a bit hard now & then

My diet is shit and I exercise rarely and sporadically

All I can suggest it that Stoner is turning into a fat nancy like me 🙁

magic powder eh? Essence of Innis & Gunn. Just add water?

d'ya realise what you've started? I picked up 3x of those hefty bottles at the shops today to tide the adults over for Jr's birthday party tomorrow. Should see'em through.

I dont "exercise", scaredy you porky pants. I ride my bike. I used to ride my bike till it hurt (for years and years), I got used to it but lately I found I could ride my bike until I couldnt turn the crank, but before it hurt. That's weirded me out.

have you tried the rum cask version of I & G with the black label?....it'r rather jolly

I'll put some cheeky stuff in with ya ring, or I can deliver it and come for a bimble in the malverns 😉

come on down. Bring your beer boots though. (accommodation offered 😉 )

not seen black label in Waitrose or Morrisons. Is it more Lidl?

I dont "exercise", I ride my bike.

But I used (say 25 years ago 😳 ) to be much much fitter for my age than I am now. I wonder if "something" works up to a level that I'm incapable of achieving or even getting close to because of that.
(I mostly played footy which has enough "rest" in a game for me not to have hurt while doing it, but I was pretty bloody fit at the time)

stoner 'tis this

[img] [/img]

So hold on; iDave went round to meet Mrs Stoner for a 'business meeting', then Stoner went down the pub, leaving the two of them to it?

😯

Does it come with subtitles is all I want to know. Cos there's nowt more frustrating than not knowing what the hell people are talking about, I mean they could be talking about 'Scandinavian Venture Capital' for all I know. 😐

ooo, new one to me that tazz. Will look it out.
As for your special blend of 'phets.... 😉

Elfin - yep that's what happens everytime a business woman has a meeting. they get all rumpy pumpy. 🙄 Probably why there's so few female FTSE 100 board members, too busy shaggin'. Now behave or I set the sassenach anti-misogywhat on you.

Sorry Stoner; it's all these educational language films I've bin watching. 😳

I know that for the first few weeks of iDiet I wasn't consuming enough energy and would feel cold and need more sleep.
I think my body has adapted well now and it's amazing how a couple of ounces of pasta pre-ride will get me up the hills as if I'm on rocket fuel (another singlespeeder here).
I can feel the benefits of the 14kg that I'm not having to lug around, and I don't run out of energy now.

couple of ounces of pasta pre-ride

It works for me.