[Closed] Orange Five - WTF makes it so special?

The weight is an issue. No one will convince me that a heavier bike is better for the trails. The new bench mark is 25lbs. Way ahead is carbon. Orange needs to move forward or it will die like so many British firms.

I test rode a O5 and a heckler back to back, to me the orange felt numb.

Orange needs to move forward or it will die like so many British firms.

Does it matter how many pivots a bike has if its well designed and quality bearings or bushes used? Prob not

Does it matter how many pivots a bike has if its well designed and quality bearings or bushes used?

Well if you have to replace 14 bearings it a) takes ages and b) costs £80 quid or something. Plus if a bike has that many bearings they are often (but not always) small which means that they don't last as long anyway.

Bearings on a 5 are chunky, and also bolted in rather than pressed, which makes it a doddle to change.

I bought a brand new Orange 5 SE in cosmic super turf, with further upgrades back in 2009, coming in at 27lb. I live near Halifax and therefore the main reason for the purchase was simply that!.
I pxd a Stumpjumber at LL in Bury, and back in 2009 there were discounts / deals galore due to the recession and bikes were reasonably priced. I paid £2650.00 which included further upgrades.

I have been riding bikes for 25+ years and in fairness this "did a job", great spec, good weight, geometry....but something was missing and it did not stack up with all the hype of the 5s at the time (consider I purchased this also on the back of the first 10/10 MBR review). I have rode several bikes since I got rid, namely Cube Fritz and Stereos, meta 5.5, scott genius 20 and recently my 09 epithany, some were better, but none less as good as the 5. Consider none of these bikes also cost more than a 5, other than the epithany.

Respectfully average Joes (which is the bracket I fall into) will not know the difference between a 5 or any many other cheaper premium FSers.

The concern to me is that I would now need to shell out £4.4k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, yes 4.4k !!!!! for an 2011 SE. This therefore would not even make it into my top 20 shortlist when I look to purchase again next year. Would I consider one of these new Canyons....., top reviews, better looking, far better specd, half the price...who wouldnt ?.

So after 3 pages of posting, nothing has confirmed to me what makes it special ?, jesus 90% of bikes have similar geometry to the 5, I cant believe this has been offered for many of the main reasons why people overpay for this bike now, the reasons offered are also relevent to many over premium grade bikes.

What makes this special is perhaps 3No. MBR 10/10s, and the fact that 85% of 5 riders refuse to say otherwise ?.

GREAT BIKE, NOT SPECIAL.

'bout time for a Carbon 5 IMO 😀

Simple design will be easy and cheap to make in carbon. Put a little bit thought into some of the finer points of carbon design and you would get a very light and robust bike that needn't cost that much over the alloy one, maybe the same tbh but you would probably have to ship out the build to Taiwan for cost and affordable quality control. But you could get them made in the UK if you could get some funding to help set it up.

To be honest, I thought the Patriot was a more significant bike...

It's why people like Rowan Sorrell are so devastatingly quick on them!

Rowan Sorrell would be quicker than nearly all of us on a shopping trolley.

I've demo'd it twice and been underwhelmed on both occasions. Was merely 'okay' - there are clearly better designs out there IMO.

Elle n'est rien qu'une velo

Maybe it's because it's a genuinely good do-most-things-well bike?

Just saying, like.

yep them Canyon's are damn good for the money.

I think like the stumpy the O5 needs to evolve using the new materials. It was saved from the dustbin of history by the revolution in shock technology.

I didn't think the 5 was that spectacular when I rode one, the Zesty I rode straight after climbed better and descended pretty much exactly as well. But, where the 5 shone was that neutrality/approachability, most bikes take a little time to gel with but I really felt like I could dick around on the 5 almost immediately. The same's been true of the R8 and the 224 (and my Cotics, and some others), they just feel immediately right. And that's probably a big advantage when it comes to test rides, if you've got an hour to test a bike and you spend the first 40 minutes just figuring out how to make it go round a corner it's not going to make as good an impression overall.

I like 5s... Don't think they're anything amazing but I wouldn't mind one.

I like Mbr's trail bike of the year review - crap rims, under powered brakes 10/10 go figure! Not a five hater, have owned one and liked it but i've stopped using mbr magazine reviews as a source of reference for anything other than component specs.

Sorted geometry and simplicity make it a great bike. I ride nothing but 29er myself but if I was forced to buy a tiddly wheeled bike the 5 is the best of all the ones I've tried at demo days. Took an AM build one round the black at Laggan last time and it was a hoot, nowhere near as good as a decent 29er but fun all the same.

Some other fancier/expensiver bikes which seem great on paper turn out just not as nice to ride despite all their pivots and gubbins which make their suspension supposedly perfect. 5 Spot was the only other one I've tried which came close to the 5.

I test rode one at Glentress a few weeks ago. For me what made it special is the fact I felt at home on it straight away, it took no getting used to whatsoever. I hammered it around for 7 hours like I had owned it for years with a huge grin on my face because it was fun.

Surely any bike that is fun (for me) to ride is special, whether its a £500 hard tail, or a 3k full sus?

My brother also hired one and wasn't as impressed. Whats good for one, isn't necessarily good for another.

Is your brother American?

I went from an 04 Enduro to an 08 '5'. For me it is more fun, better to ride, more robust, simple. It's still on it's original bearings, whereas the Enduro needed new ones (about 8 of them) every 6 months.

I am wondering about getting the pivot bearing changed anyway now though, seeing as it is almost 3 yrs old !

Initially I hated the design of single pivot Oranges.

Then I had a ride on a 222.... and was instantly converted.

One year later, and I pick up an older Patriot (yr 2000) frame - which rides superbly too.

If I was to purchase a new bike/frame... it would be a Five no doubt.

The Orange 5 has become a bit like Marin full sussers did a few years ago, only with a less "beardy" image, and a higher pricetag.

Now we all know that it's obviously not a bad bike. If it was rubbish, it wouldn't sell no matter what! It does rely on it's track record though a bit too heavily. You're only as good as your last performance etc. and on that basis the 5 has slipped somewhat. Still the apple of average joe's eye, but definitely been left behind by other bikes in the performance/weight/cost stakes. The RRP of a 5 has been a long standing joke quite frankly, when you consider that the likes of Specialized, Trek and even Cannondale (whilst they still sold the Prophet) can match or better the performance for a whole heap less cash. But its worse than ever now for the 5 as it's prices have soared!

I'm absolutely sure if I was given a 5 I'd have a good time on it, geometry looks reasonably well sorted, and just like a Porsche 911 it's had plenty enough time for most of it's inherent foibles to be ironed out as best as possible. But there are newer, cheaper, lighter, better performing bikes out there, which if I was looking for a new bike (I'm not) would get my cash over the 5 time and time again...

jesus 90% of bikes have similar geometry to the 5, I cant believe this has been offered for many of the main reasons why people overpay for this bike

this will be the hype bit old boy.

I hammered it around for 7 hours like I had owned it for years with a huge grin on my face because it was fun.

That's why I own a Five. 🙂

It's peculiar how something as conventional as a Five has such a polarising effect on opinion. Some folks sneer and others will consider nothing else.

It seems form all the chaff above that the big problem the Five has is that it is popular. If it was more niche it would be accepted by more.

I don't see what is wrong with a British made bike being well regarded. If you don't like them, there are alternatives. Where is the harm?

I still think most of you don't know what brake jack is. It's NOT the feeling of the rear wheel smacking into things as you brake.

If this isn't a symptom of brake jack then can you perhaps explain what it is then? Or what brake jack feels like? Because I do know what it is, and your description of it's symptoms is pretty accurate succinct.

BTW I'm not knocking the 5, never had one, but I've had two SC Bullits and never had a problem with brake jack, although I could make them do it if I wanted to, but it is an easy thing to avoid and makes you a better rider by picking your brake spot more carefully and refusing to brake on the ruff stuff. Love a single pivot me, so I can only imagine the 5 must be OK > Great.

It seems form all the chaff above that the big problem the Five has is that it is popular. If it was more niche it would be accepted by more.

This is a laughable contradiction/misstatement, did you do it on purpose?

[i]I'm absolutely sure if I was given a 5 I'd have a good time on it[/i]

Seriously...its a bike. How bad is it going to be? Bikes are fun.

Edit:
[i]My bad...misread.[/i]

I prefer my five inch travel bikes to be sub-25lbs

It's a good job it's nearer 6" then (and compares more favourably against 140-150mm bikes) :p

FWIW I demo'd one and thought it felt like a classic car, you could throw all the upgrades you like at it but it'll still feel on edge. Where as something more 'refined' wont nececeraly be quicker but will feel more composed.

Just bought a Pitch Pro, I'd like the Orange, but I got a complete new bike for the frame only cost of the Orange.

I think people are confusing the Five per se, and the Five at it's current price.

I bought a 2nd hand 2004 full bike when it was 18 months old for £1200. At the time I think the frame on its own was about £1000 which was comparable with the competition. Now, however, I think it's coming out as relatively expensive, for a design which is older compared to the competition. And people are questioning what they're paying the premium for. I think that's a fair question tbh.

As a bike per se it's an effective design which clearly a lot of people are very happy with, maybe not as sophisticated and scientific as newer designs but clearly still a very effective, reliable and cheap-to-maintain one. I think this last point can be underestimated in its appeal and not something non-owners are as aware of.

In general, I think people who own one are judging primarily on the performance/reliability/maintenance thing. They're not worried about current price so they see all its good points when they ride it.
People who are looking around are looking at the price, the old design and thinking WTF?!

I thought that brake jack was the action of brakes making the suspension extend. In the case of the 5, the rear suspension extends because your weight is pitched forwards unweighting the rear. On a horst bike, I suspect that the action of the brakes would cause the rear to COMPRESS thereby going some way to negating the weight-forward issue and providing better tracking of the rear wheel...

Also when extended, the axle path of the rear wheel could mean that you felt the bumps more as the wheel moved foward into bumps with suspension extension.

Still, it's never even remotely approached an issue for me. Remember this is an MTB not a luxury car. Compared to a HT it's pretty plush 🙂

The design is a culmination of 10 years of evolution isn't it? Meh who cares, it's just a bike that does what a bike should do. If people can't afford it they should buy something else and quit worrying.

molgrips - Have a read ->

I struggle with long sentences properly (because I have read it before) but from the diagrams it looks like a massively longwinded explanation of what's fairly obvious to me as a physics graduate. Plus I'm not sure it's correct. He suggests that the difference in vectors between the axle and the caliper cause a turning moment about the suspension pivot, but to me it woudl suggest a turning moment about a point in between the two - resulting in a flex of the swingarm.

If you remove the shock, spin the wheel and apply the brake the swingarm moves up, but that's transfer of angular momentum which is different. And not significant because it's small compared to the other forces at work.

And even if it is right, he is demonstrating brake SQUAT in a single pivot, not brake JACK - which he acknowledges.

It is fairly easy to understand that if the brake torque/axle reaction force doesn’t exhibit a compressive or extensive force/moment on the suspension AT ALL, then under any braking the suspension will extend due to weight shifting forwards. For this reason, it may be useful to have some amount of pro-squat (tendency to compress).

This is basically what I said up there ^^^

Another important point to note is that true “neutrality” under any acceleration (positive [pedalling] or negative [braking]) is not necessarily an optimum setup – certain reaction forces under braking/pedalling can help stabilise the bike as well as offer greater comfort and traction

This is also bang on, and relevant to the bike under discussion here 🙂

The first one I had looked like two different people had welded the front triangle together (the swingarm was fine), look at it from one side and the welds were fine. Look at it from the other and it looked like who-ever had done it was on their very first day in the job. It cracked on the "bad" side where the axle for the pivot bearings passes through the down-tube. Returned and (after almost two months and alot of chasing up) was replaced under warranty. The second one cracked in the same place. The third replacement was blatently misaligned, the back wheel was about 10mm further right than the front!

My LBS got my money back and I've ridden hardtails ever since. I won't be buying another Orange. A shame because my first proper mountain bike, a 1993 clockwork LX is still going now and for many years was my only and very much loved bike.

I think they had a dodgy patch a while back in terms of build. A LBS I once had refused to sell them for that reason.

Mine does not seem to have those issues.

To be fair the first two rode OK before they broke and there are many, many satisfied customers out there so maybe I just had bad luck.

Three times.

With the warranty dept., the QC dept., the framebuilding dept.........

The RRP of a 5 has been a long standing joke quite frankly, when you consider that the likes of Specialized, Trek and even Cannondale (whilst they still sold the Prophet) can match or better the performance for a whole heap less cash.

So having never ridden one you have come to the conclusion that they are not worth the money, but a mass produced bike made in Taiwan by a robot is?

To me people on here fall in three categories

1) People who can't afford one so they talk them down to make themselves feel like they have bought the right bike because it was cheaper, better spec'ed, has more pivots blah blah blah

2) People who have tried them and genuinely didn't get on with them for what ever reason, geometry, size etc. Usually these people still say they are a good bike and worth the money.

3) People who don't have a clue what they are talking about, their mates brothers girlfriends dad had a go on one and said it was crap.

What people seem to forget is weight and spec are fine, but bikes are made to be ridden. Being light and well spec'ed doesn't make a bike fun, and thats the reason you ride isn't it, to have FUN!? Which is what the Five is.

What's an Orange Five?

So having never ridden one you have come to the conclusion that they are not worth the money, but a mass produced bike made in Taiwan by a robot is?

Correct!

And the problem with that is what exactly?

Its almost irrelevant how it performs if it is so expensive as to exclude it from many a new bike shopping list. The old assertion that "handmade in England = Better" is total crap too. In fact, I'd argue otherwise knowing what the quality of mass produced frames by the likes of Giant, Specialized and Trek are like.

The Orange 5 is a good bike, no doubt, but it's overpriced, over hyped and heavy compared to most rivals. I also know probably as many people who love theirs, feel the same way about a 5 they used to own, but were underwhelmed by.

I reckon this thread probably goes someway to promoting the Five - could you see a similar thread about a Trance getting to 4 pages long!?

I've just got my first five - think it's ace fun - much more so than a heckler I've owned (angles) - less faff than the Blur 4X I had (bearings) - less quick down than the Nomad or Last Herb AM I had obviously - very lively in comparison, I can't just plough through a rock garden any more, but that's OK - skipping about is just as fun - it's all about riding a bike after all - if it takes longer, then to my mind that's a good thing - more time having fun on a bike! And it gets up the hills better than any of my previous bikes (probably a lot to do with weight being the correct side of 30lbs)

Probably too much bike for most of the UK, but out here in the Alps it's great - we'll see how I feel once I stop climbing for my downs and the lifts open. But then I may just get a cane creek shock and fit my Lyrics on the front.

Versatile? Yep. But then you could say that about a lot of bikes around the 140mm mark.

For me the simplicity is great. So there's a bit of brake jack or whatever XYZ path square edge blah blah. But I can't see this bike being out of action for any length of time because of bearing issues. The 4X was a pain in the arse - the Nomad was much improved in that department.

Ultimately it's a free country. Buy one if you like it, don't if you don't.

Anyhow - there's my two penneth.

The current Orange 5, is worth its 2009 price. Subsequant inferior specification, coupled with a 40% + price hike, I feel, is a complete joke.

As my comments above, I ran a blinged to the max 09 SE version for 2 years and it was a great bike. If I had spent £4.4k on it, I would have been a disapointed.

In summary, and digesting 3 pages of comments, the Orange 5 is simply a good bike.

Hmm.. anyone wanna buy a 2007 5 frame? 🙂

I don't know why folks foam at the mouth at the Five SE price tag. £4400 is £3000 more than the frame price.

Take a look at the Scott Scale. The Premium is £5000, £3600 more than the frame alone price. Then move along to the 899, which is £8000; for the same frame but a different build kit!

I await the threads that will rant about value for that brand.

Its almost irrelevant how it performs if it is so expensive as to exclude it from many a new bike shopping list. The old assertion that "handmade in England = Better" is total crap too. In fact, I'd argue otherwise knowing what the quality of mass produced frames by the likes of Giant, Specialized and Trek are like

You obviously fall into category one.

Deciding a bike isn't worth the money without riding one is a bit strange.

You are always going to pay a premium for anything handmade because whether you like it or not, you are paying for someones skills and time.

If you can't afford it, it doesn't make it not worth the money, it just means you need a better job, or to buy a cheaper bike.

I can't afford an Aston Martin, it doesn't mean they're not worth the money.

You make absolutely no sense

What bit didn't you understand?