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It was only once i bought a Cove Handjob that i found myself unwilling to take out my 5 and instead always grabbing the Cove.
Perhaps the 5 was too similar to the hardtail??? as someone mentioned above. Whereas my new Zesty feels completely different and a total contrast, as it should be!
only been riding about 3 years ,got my 5 in july 08 after a sub 5 , a trance and a s-works epic , at a certain age and a bit of a mincer on the desents the 5 is a great skill compensator . from a play on the local hills too all day enduros it works for me 😀
There's no such thing as the "ultimate" as there are too many variables although you can build a 5 up light or heavy or somewhere in between - as an only bike they make a lot of sense. They tend to be ridden by people who love to ride instead of concerning themselves about pivot points, linkage ratios, cosmetics and all that other boring nerd shit perpetuated by pasty forum gayboys. Pro riders love them, people who work in bike shops love them, the magazines love them - trail bike of the year 3 years running in one mag and Dirt magazine rate the 5 as one of the best ever made. Not everyone's cup of tea sure but there's no accounting for taste.
To those who think they are too expensive: Maybe you're in the wrong game and should take up something cheaper if the price bothers you.
"To those who think they are too expensive: Maybe you're in the wrong game and should take up something cheaper if the price bothers you."
Silly nonsense 😉 They're just too expensive for what they are, doesn't mean we can't afford them. Since you were dropping names of recommendations, Dirt also rate the Pitch Pro and the entire bike costs about the same as the Five frame.
(the Five isn't the only frame that's too expensive of course, I wouldn't have paid RRP for my Hemlock)
There's no such thing as the "ultimate" as there are too many variables although you can build a 5 up light or heavy or somewhere in between - as an only bike they make a lot of sense. They tend to be ridden by people who love to ride instead of concerning themselves about pivot points, linkage ratios, cosmetics and all that other boring nerd shit perpetuated by pasty forum gayboys. Pro riders love them, people who work in bike shops love them, the magazines love them - trail bike of the year 3 years running in one mag and Dirt magazine rate the 5 as one of the best ever made. Not everyone's cup of tea sure but there's no accounting for taste.
Pass me the sick bucket 😆
I guess if we are looking for longevity, popularity (remember a popular frame means word of mouth and ability get noticed)..then there is only one:
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/allmtn-full-suspension/santa-cruz/heckler/PRD_363227_1547crx.aspx
None of that boutique, niche UK bullshit here. Simple, it works and its proved very popular for a reason. Never been cheap, but shifted. 😉
Hora, do you ever get piles?
No, what are yours like and what to expect?
That's because God made you the perfect arsehole.
brake jack is easy:
# imagine a single pivot bike - like a 5.
# suspension travel is caused by the swingarm rotating around the pivot.
# the rear wheel is in contact with the ground, the bike is moving forward, the wheel is rotating.
# the wheel is rotating in the same direction/sense as would be seen in the swingarm during compression.
# apply the back brake.
# the ground skidding past the tyre creates a torque, which causes the swingarm to rotate = brake jack
i don't like brake jack - why pay for suspension that doesn't work when the going gets bumpy?
lots of people DO like brake jack - cos it causes the rear wheel to compress, which helps balance out some of the nose dive from the front brake.
most people don't really think about it, and don't care (this is probably the healthy way to go about it).
neutral bikes feel a bit nervous on the brakes - cos nose dive is much more noticeable.
brake-jacky bikes feel a bit harsh when you use the back brake over bumps.
most motorbike designs encourage brake jack - cos it helps keep the bike level - the lawhwilhill design would be a neutral braker - but mert lawhwill put a small linkage in to keep the brake jack going - he found it usefull, and so do lots of other people*:
ie, in a mountain bike scenario; you could use brake jack down a steep techy chute - trailing the back brake would cause the rear suspension to compress a bit more - lowering the BB and slackening the head angle a bit more.
(* all the lawwill design mountain bikes i've seen have kept this small parallelogram linkage by the rear axle, and then they've claimed it's to keep the suspension active, and that's a fail)
[i]That's because God made you the perfect arsehole.[/i]
It'd take one to know one wouldn't it sweetie x
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I like your bag. Was it made in the UK?
It came as part of the outfit. I'm actually wearing a matching pencil pleat skirt ensemble.
ahwiles....that there makes sense and i for one will not tolerate sense, fact or anything else that gets in the way of talking bollox 😆
@iainc I've got a 5 and I'm looking to get a rocklobster 853 as a contrast, how do u find the rocklobster
an explanation, with equations and everything, on brake jack [url= http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation. ]here[/url]*
*not mine & I've just skim-read it, but it seems sound
looking good hora lol
I personally don't buy the claim that they are made in the UK. Maybe the swingarm is, but it must surely be more cost effective to have the main frame built overseas? Maybe they just assemble the frames in the UK and spray them here. Built in the UK is not the same as made in the UK, and don't Orange just claim that they are built here, which does imply at least some overseas manufacture?
I dont understand the expensive thing? perhaps if you compare
them to enormous companies like giant etc. but to build up a
bike from any of the equivalent european,american,canadian
companies is going to cost even more with a like for like spec!
[url=
folded, welded, painted & assembled in Halifax[/url]
awhiles - interesting, but do you know of a bike where that would not apply? It woudl have to be one with a forward axle path, which would be terrible whilst pedalling surely?
I reckon the diving or otherwise of a bike is far far more dependent on the position of the centre of gravity of the rider and hence the geometry of the bike than that effect.
I further maintain that the roughness of a 5 in rocky braking is due to the damping requirements of the frame...
I don't and have never owned an Orange. If it was a US made frame it would be more expensive I think it's bang on price wise.
Ultimate do it all bike - Yup I think so.
Can be built light or heavy, is strong, is low maintenance, is easy to set up and tune, has good and completely contemporary geometry, good cable routing, climbs well, decends well, had suspension that is fine for 90% of people 90% of the time.
I can't think of another bike that comes close for the cash especially for the ahem, larger chap.
I'm no fanboi but it's easily the best sus bike for many UK riders.
Here's some tenuously related graphs, to keep it going
08 remedy moved rear pivot to the rear axle
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and a techier link, which I haven't read 🙂
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation.
Not bad techie link but I think he's over complicating it. Fairly easy to see that a rearward force at the contact patch would result in a turning moment about the pivot. There may even be a few mistakes, looking at the diagrams but I CBA to read the text to find out 🙂
But it does extend my understanding of what the phrase 'brake jack' was intended to mean with regards frames.
molgrips:
4-bars with long flat top links are more or less neutral-brakers.
(think ellsworth, cotic, old turners, speccy demo, boardman, etc)
this is because the wheel and calliper are attached to a frame element that moves up and down, it 'translates' it doesn't 'rotate'.
(unless the design is a perfect parallelogram, there will be some element rotation, but it's greatly reduced over a single-pivot)
"Ah, but does it come with a set of front-mounted wirecutters"
ha! like it, wish it did come with a set of front mounted wire cutters as i would'nt be sat here scratching my knackers reading all this shit an stupid ****in graphs! oh and let me tell you sumet, i had a go on a zesty an i was scared shittless! took it down sumat gnarly and felt the frame was gunna snap! don't care what the mags say, it's a xc/marathon bike, cannot take abuse like a 5, oh selling a 224 aswell if anyones interested?
shaggmiester, never met you and probably never will but I wish you a speedy recovery. Not good, especially before Summer 🙁
Don't bloody well tempt me with offers of 224s. I've always longed to ride a real DH bike, and never have....
Good point again awhiles - I'd forgotten about the parallelogram design - nicely illustrated by a Schwinn 88 that my mate used to have.
can anyone name a MX/Enduro/GP motorbike suspension system that is a multi-pivot e.g. 4-bar (don't confuse linkage-actuated shocks) and is dominant in its sport (not the same as commercial success though the former often influences the latter)?
talk about single-pivot inefficiencies is interesting, when the lack of talk/development into linkage front suspension is considered. Why is there such emphasis on creating complex solution to the rear end of a bike and not the front? The telescopic design, when viewed analytically has its flaws. It dives under braking, changes bike geometry as it compresses, has large amount of stiction & can bob under rider force. Lawill, Girvin, AMP & Whyte all took this on to not much success.
The tele fork, however, is very workable in design, it's inefficiencies can be tamed with clever damping, it is light and has fewest moving parts. Much like a single pivot.
5 or a Blur LT...u know which id take 8)
Sam r - what most of the 5 riders here are saying is exactly that. That is, it may not be the plushest or most efficient in terms of bump isolation, but that is really not that important against other factors. We can cope with a few bumps of course, but what we gain is stiffness, simplicity, reliability and predictable action that we can live with.
USE made a fork that didn't dive - everyone though it was really really weird to ride since we've all grown so used to it. They don't sell well...
Sam R - uneven, low RPM pedalling and a chainline that dosen't follow the swingarm scupper that comparison.
MX/Enduro/GP motorbike systems are driven by a engine not a set of cranks gears and legs attached to a moving mass, totally different design considerations!!
The 'other' thing that scuppers the comparison is the fact the motorbikes don't have a rider that weighs significantly more than the bike itself sitting on top of it spinning his legs round (as Eccles mentions).
About the only comparison to make is the fact that they both have 2 wheels.
can anyone name a MX/Enduro/GP motorbike suspension system that is a multi-pivot e.g. 4-bar (don't confuse linkage-actuated shocks) and is dominant in its sport (not the same as commercial success though the former often influences the latter)?
Not dominant but fairly successful (take a look at pic 8/17 for an interesting front end - similar to Spec' Demo back end?):
It dives under braking, changes bike geometry as it compresses, has large amount of stiction & can bob under rider force. Lawill, Girvin, AMP & Whyte all took this on to not much success.
That depends on how you measure success...
...The lawill, Amp, Whyte all have much in common with the BMW's telelever & Duolever designs, which are direct descendants of Norman Hossack's Mclaren F1 design. Think along the lines of inherent anti dive without the need for complex damping, stays active throughout braking , low stiction etc. pretty much the holy grail of suspension design that's been around for decades. However, the drawback from cycle design is its weight and expense. It wouldn't have taken much for Whyte's PRST1 to be very good, except it was pretty much lambasted by everyone based on being damned Fugly.
In the world of MTB's it could be the dogs danglies but unless the popular press say so nobody believes it, and unless its the latest colour or fashion nobody will buy it.
I've had a few Orange single pivots including 5's, Patriots and a 224, though I now ride a Nicolai 4 bar. For what its worth I'd say as a do it all bike I found the 5 to be great. No matter how basic the suspension design is, or whatever shock is on it they never failed to raise a smile from me - Orange know a lot about geometry, and that overcomes many suspension design deficiencies such as those mentioned above.
On the topic of brake jack - I understand this to be the effect of the suspension decompressing/rising/[i]jacking[/i] up under braking. This is not the same as the rear suspension locking or stiffening under braking. The Orange "suffers" from the latter but not the former (I say suffer in the loosest possible meaning of the word as its not something that cannot be overcome and you get used to it very quickly - especially straight from a hardtail).
The thing about the basic single pivot design from Orange is that it is so predictable in any situation that it is not demanding in any way. In my eyes this just translates as the rider being able to focus on the ride rather than the bike.
Sorry about the long post, but hey, its a long thread.
You should all be glad to know that all this is fuelling my desire to get the 5 frame I bought over the weekend (don't worry it was secondhand so not obscenely expensive, more re-assuringly expensive) built up so I can get it out the door and experience some of that there brake-jack, is it like beer? will it make my head ache the morning after? It sounds good to me 🙂
Unless you race bikes for a living, its all about fun. The 5 may not have the best suspension action, but I still think it was the best fun bike I've owned. I want a new one! Does anyone want to swap one for a Blur 4x?!?
For shame DD. Hang your head in shame. I shall be around shortly to take your blur4x badge and gun from you.
He he Hora, I know, I know, I feel bad, I love the Blur, the funny thing is its a better bike, but somehow its not as much fun.... or maybe I looking at things through rose tinted goggles
fun? no-one mentioned anything about fun. Hang on, i've got an equation for that lying around here somewhere...
All tech issues aside, I have an spesh fsr xc (which I was happy with)and a 5 and the reason I got the 5 was after riding a couple of different 5's it felt significantly better at climbing and descending. Also as for the niche comments I was at GT a month ago and it was by far the most common bike there.
my new frame will be a 5 to replace my old 5 not changing for nowt
Also as for the niche comments I was at GT a month ago and it was by far the most common bike there.
Bloody Northerners on their annual hols. Other folk tend to splash out abit and go overseas 😆
"shaggmiester, never met you and probably never will but I wish you a speedy recovery. Not good, especially before Summer"
cheers hora, hopefully 6weeks and i'll be riding 2 handed again! anyone tried riding a blood?, awesome bike! 😉
[b]Eccles[/b], [b]anc[/b] & [b]hepstanton[/b]
my points were: people wax lyrical about linkage rear suspension on the basis of efficiency, but are happy with telescopic forks, of which there are more "efficient" alternatives, none of which have gained much market share/podium success.
motorbikes experience irregular torque & load transfers, similar, albeit vastly magnified, to your humble mountain bike. I don't understand how the rider mass vs. bike mass difference, though obvious, is terribly influential on the efficiency (energy loss, ultimately) of a rear suspension action. Could you expand?
GREAT THREAD!
"Orange are not very good"
"yes they are"
"Oh no they're not"
"Oh yes they are"
etc etc
I have a bike which I like (not a 5 but I do like them), others may not like it, which is fine with me because I'm the one who rides it.
Do I worry that someone may point and say "that's ugly/crap/whatever"?
No, I couldn't give a f***.
I do like them bloods BTW, but I could never do one justice.