[Closed] Orange 5 - Ultimate 'do it all' bike??

Hmmn.

Same components, different frame.
OK, the Merlin frames are built abroad by Kinesis, but I'm not buying the short production run thing.
I'd wager Orange sell more 5's per year then Merlin sell 853's.

Take off the additional costs for the rear shock (trade price) and you're still looking at a £1500 difference.
I'm almost tempted to say that £1500 buys a lot of Snake Oil, but that would just be provocative for the sake of it... 🙂

"Danny could of chosen any bike, he chose an Orange"

You're having a laugh, right? He's an Orange sponsored rider and they supplied the bike.

Northwind, he chose 🙂

OK, Devil's Advocacy aside, I can see that their business model is nowhere near as efficient as the Merlins of this world, manufacturing costs in Halifax are greater than in Korea etc etc.

However, you can't justify high prices just because everyone likes the bikes. I've never met anyone who didn't like their Boardman.

[b]If[/b] Orange choose to market their bikes as a premium product, then those buying them have to accept that they are paying more for just that, nothing else.

Supply , demand, snake oil, spin, great rides, confidence, bomb proof, designed in a 1950's gdansk ship yard, handles anything you chuck at it, made in the Pennines so its "local"..................I just love mine

rusty. I have a RL 853. I also have an Orange 5. They are both great bikes, but very different. I ride them both every week and if I had to get a new hardtail I'd buy an xt specced 853...if I had to buy another FS, I'd buy an xt specced Orange 5. I've had the 853 for 4 yrs and the Orange for 2. I also think they both are quite good value for money.

Hope this helps..

I work at the GC trail centre and we get demo days and magazine tests regularly at the centre.
Im fortunate enough to be able to ride pretty much every design out there down the same section of trail that I know very well.
The orange 5 is the most fun to ride down the GC trails end of. I also ride mine at Rheola and Cwmcarn on selected sections of the DH tracks an it's good fun there too.
I can ride demo bikes all year if I choose, but I bought a 5 because I like the ride so much. I specced mine with a coil shock for durability (longer service intervals) and it still pedals efficiently because I dialled in the correct amount of sag.
And brake jack is only a bad thing if you're a shit rider.
If you apply the brake on the straight, allow the bike to sit into it's travel and release the brakes to load the front end into a bend, you weight the front tyre and get more cornering grip and carry more speed through the bend.
Tossers that don't understand this basic principle cause braking bumps and complain about brake jack while they ruin the trails for everyone else.
It's poor technique not poor bike design. A bad workman........

All suspension designs jack. Remove the shock, set to the sag point, spin the rear wheel and brake. the rear wheel will lift pushing the swingarm / chainstay through it's travel. Some suspension desgns claim to eliminate this, but they just mask it with linkages and damping that rob the rider of feel. If your suspension doesn't move under braking it's pretty useless for absorbing bumps.

I have no doubt that it's a superb bike - literally everyone I've spoken to who's got one really, really rates it. It appeals to me because of it's simplicity, the fact that it's designed locally and it's reputation for strength.

I'm sure, as I've stated above, that the manufacturing costs and overheads are much higher than a Taiwanese built frame, but that can't be the only reason. If it's just to maintain an air of exclusivity and to ensure that Orange is percieved as a 'premium' brand, then fair enough, but if so, lets acknowledge the fact.

I'm just after an answer as to why they seem so pricey compared to other brands - a more valid comparison would of course be between the RL 853 and the Orange R8 - very similar frames, both made in Taiwan. The Rock Lobster is £299, the Orange £560.

And brake jack is only a bad thing if you're a shit rider.
If you apply the brake on the straight, allow the bike to sit into it's travel and release the brakes to load the front end into a bend, you weight the front tyre and get more cornering grip and carry more speed through the bend.
Tossers that don't understand this basic principle cause braking bumps and complain about brake jack while they ruin the trails for everyone else.
It's poor technique not poor bike design. A bad workman........

LOL Northwind you and me both 😆 😉 😆

Sounds like Old Rusty Spanner is still in the Tool Box 🙄

I agree with Skyline-GTR .

I wouldn't expect Skyline-GTR to say anything else as an Orange Dealer 😉

When I asked the question "Does the suspension on a 5 remain active whilst braking when descending?" I thought it was a fairly simple and reasonable question based on the design and given my experience on the Superlight.

I'm amazed how it's come down to "learn to ride/shit rider" comments with assumptions being made on what/how people ride rather answering the question...although thanks to those that have answered. As per what stuartnic said, my experience of the suspension stiffening under braking on the Superlight was on fast long rough descents where at some point you got to can the speed by braking.

Anyway, back to the question: does the suspension remain active during braking when descending? From the responses, I'm taking it, it does not....well, not as active as other suspension designs. Thanks 😀

I've not ridden a 5 so can't comment on the specific frame but I do think that 5" FS is the sweet spot for a flexible frame. for some this will be the 6" mark but all the 6" bikes I have tried have felt a little tall and saggy. My next bike will almost certainly be a 5" FS

as for value ... well for sure the likes of Giant trek and Specsh will always be able to provide better vfm and a sorted geometry drawn from extensive research so in a completely rational world you'd probably choose one of them.

Not one of my mountainbike purchases over the last 20 years has been fully rational. Not one. 😀

manufacturing costs in Halifax are greater than in Korea etc etc.

Koreans work for rupees? 😉
The automated/tooling/machine outlay must be big so the factories need to get the money back ontop of profit/labour and materials (along with local taxes etc etc)? Then theres the shipping, import duty/costs etc then the Distributors (country agent) margin (remember Jungle wont work for free you know) 😉

Then we get down to it.......
Simple really, Orange will charge what their competitors charge.

Its a open-market. [u]Why not?[/u]

My 'argument' is simply what is wrong with me saying I dont get on with a certain frame?
If someone said 'I don't like the way the Blur4x rides' then fine. Who cares? Are Orange STW customers a sensitive bunch?

Nuke I believe the suspension continues to work same as
multi link, when the bike is moving the suspension is still
working. But what suspension works for one does not work for
someone else.

[i]Nuke I believe the suspension continues to work same as
multi link[/i]

I think you're right. The force on the brake rotor and on the wheel is going backwards, and I don't think many suspension designs incorporate a stretching back end. Some may extend slightly on their arc, but would have thought it would be fractional, and even then it has to return. But I'm not a physics expert, so this may sound like a load of bollocks.

Except on a Foes maybe with that floating rear brake?

grantway - Member

Sounds like Old Rusty Spanner is still in the Tool Box

Not sure what it means, but it's funny and certainly rolls off the tongue. 😀
I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just after an answer to a question. I didn't realise that it was a taboo subject.

Then we get down to it.......
Simple really, Orange will charge what their competitors charge.

How much are skilled fabricators paid by the way? 😉

I think what Hora means is [i]Orange will charge what the market will bear[/i]

I do not expect that labour in (south) korea is cheap. South Korea is one of the most developed and technologically advanced nations on the planet, only labour laws may be lagging "behind" (a relative term depending on how "ahead" you consider European labour law) which could give rise to a difference, but not a massive one. I think you're thinking of China and Taiwan where the labour rates are not of the same order of magnitude as UK rates

To be fair to Orange, the Five frame is more labour intensive than most designs. Watching them bend those things together is brilliant.

Though of course that doesn't explain the price of the ST4 😉 And certainly doesn't explain the ridiculous price of a P7 frame. People slate Orange for it but the fact is they're just charging what people will pay. You might want to call that exploiting their customers, you might not. Can't fault them for it myself.

Grantway: "LOL Northwind you and me both"

Good man

Ergo you see another problem coming back to mountainbikers...

If you priced it at £800 people would see it as a cheap old-design single pivot frame.

I think the attitude towards the Five is a great example that for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. The more people harp on about the joys of something, the more vocal the opposition becomes.

For every Five owner that indulges in frequent and public fantasies about being bummed in the wide-open gob by their great value, well sorted, sweet-handling ultimate do-everything trail bike, there will always be someone who can't stand the merest aesthetically repugnant sight or deafeningly thunderous sound of a bit of expensive, recycled filing cabinet brake jacking its rider into a low orbit.

It's funny.

v funny

:lol:at jacketthedog

Always thought I wanted one, tested it, liked it, but bought something else. Don't get me wrong, the 5 was a nice ride but the Turner 5 spot was more me. The orange felt very forgiving, with a single pivot soaking up all the small bumps like a comfy armchair and the slack(er) head angle being more forgiving of bad line choice when pointing downhill. The turner felt more alive on the twisty single track and the slightly firmer suspension through the first part of the travel made gave me more feel of what was under me whilst being there to take care of the big stuff. It scrabbled for grip better too. Of the 2, the turner seemed to cope better with out of the saddle all out efforts up the short stuff without becoming a bobbing crazy thing.

This will probably sound a bit inflammatory, but if I was a few years older and wanted something a little more confidence inspiring and comfortable (rather than efficiency and alert orientated) for a slightly more middle aged outlook, I'd have chosen the Orange 5. The differences are pretty semantic though - either (or anything from a list of 20+ others I expect) would have been great. So to answer the original question - If I was 45+yrs old, for me, probably yes, but I'm not so no....

Orange Fiver owner enjoying her steed earlier
[img] [/img]

Interesting debate there, people, thanks for the insight. So it's a bit like a very expensive Inbred (I currently ride the 853 Inbred) - you love the 5 and buy into it's idiosyncrasies or..............you don't.

PMSL!!!! @ -
[i]This will probably sound a bit inflammatory, but if I was a few years older and wanted something a little more confidence inspiring and comfortable (rather than efficiency and alert orientated) for a slightly more middle aged outlook, I'd have chosen the Orange 5. The differences are pretty semantic though - either (or anything from a list of 20+ others I expect) would have been great. So to answer the original question - If I was 45+yrs old, for me, probably yes, but I'm not so no[/i]
I won't be seeing 45 again!! 🙂

All suspension designs jack

We've been through this before. That wheel spinning thing is so negligible compared to the other forces invovled that you have to have the bike on a stand with no shock in it to see it happening. And it's just momentum transferrence. If you were braking down a hill at constant speed the effect you mention would be non-existent.

Suspension does get rough when you brake over bumps, that's because of the contact patch of the wheel slamming through rocks, and because that's when you most feel the damping. 5s have not especially plush suspension, that's why they feel rough when slamming through rock gardens.

Still an ace bike though.

Still not the ultimate bike.

There is no ultimate bike.

Yet there is always one constant.

An American shock.

So no such thing as 'British is best.

Was anyone trying to say it was? They'd be pretty stupid 🙂

"And brake jack is only a bad thing if you're a shit rider."

Rubbish. We all have to brake sometimes, and sometimes on the rough bits. I also don't know why everyone complains about a few braking bumps - they make corners more interesting, esp on a hardtail.

I need another go on a 5 because when we had a go on a 5 pro demo day, we didn't rate it - too slow up and down. But could have been wrong, maybe it didn't suit the terrain or it could have been setup funny or cosmic rays might have affected us.

Molgrips wrote, "We've been through this before. That wheel spinning thing is so negligible compared to the other forces invovled that you have to have the bike on a stand with no shock in it to see it happening. And it's just momentum transferrence. If you were braking down a hill at constant speed the effect you mention would be non-existent."

OK, not saying you're wrong here, but this explanation sounds false. You say "That wheel spinning thing" and "momentum transferrence" but brake jack isn't usually blamed on the momentum of the wheel... The energy involved there is tiny.

Buzzlightyear, you obviously need rider training in climbing/descending. Only great riders get the potential out of the Five..
🙄

A great new advertising slogon for STW'ers and their Fives'

[i]Soft words, strongly spoken[/i]

Wow...this thread got serious!

Hora...you never know when to stop do you? You don't like Orange 5's....we get it okay.

nickegg ok......until next time someone asks.. 8)

Thank you 😉

You say "That wheel spinning thing" and "momentum transferrence" but brake jack isn't usually blamed on the momentum of the wheel... The energy involved there is tiny

That's what I am trying to say - someone was trying to prove that brake jack existed by suggesting you remove the shock, put the bike in a stand, spin the wheel and apply the back brake to see the suspension compress. Real-world example FAIL.

the 5 is alive! the ultimate trail warrior that likes to be ridden hard! so if you cant offer it this then stick to your scott spark or sumat cos you'll never get the best of it, all you guys slaggin it just dont or cant ride hard enough! end of!

at least i had a good word to put in about the orange five.... !
and Danny Mac also had the enjoyment of riding it on his recent visit to the calder-valley ..
orange five is the way forward.... big thumbs up !

"the 5 is alive! the ultimate trail warrior that likes to be ridden hard! so if you cant offer it this then stick to your scott spark or sumat cos you'll never get the best of it, all you guys slaggin it just dont or cant ride hard enough! end of!"

Ah, but does it come with a set of front-mounted wirecutters 😉

Seriously though, who's slagging the Five? I think most people like it, it's a fantastic bike. Just that it's pretty damn expensive, and the suspension divides opinion a bit with its crudeness (or simplicity, depending on who you ask).

This hurts but i am with Northwind (a little)
But expensive is down to the construction and the way the parts of the 5
are made, and are not custom drawn Alluminium. Regarding the above I feel the ST4 and Blood seem to others has over priced.
Only being of the way the Orange 5 is made and constructed.
But I dont make them and have no idea of cost to make/construct the ST4 and Blood.

But I have just been given the opportunity to help/Design/make and construct a new Freeride bike with an ex Kona rider, so be able to find out true costings soon.

Well at least there is alot of passion around the Five.

"Seriously though, who's slagging the Five? "

Sorry, we just didn't enjoy it compared with our other bikes which we all rode back-to-back all afternoon on the Qs (GT Avalanche, Giant TranceX2, Orange P7 Pro). We all instantly took to the P7 though - it felt alive and responsive whatever trail it was thrown down - you wanted to rag it all the time. Dave bought the P7.

So I'd like another go at a 5.