[Closed] Orange 5 29er

Fox produced a USD 26 inch fork for the hell of it....so they can prototype forks pretty easily.... but they'll want teams to cover some of the costs of R&D.

The only ones that can afford to do that are not Intense, Scott or KHS. These guys aren't big players, if Trek, Specialized or Santa Cruz wanted them prototypes would be banged out in half a season.

29ers are like air forks in the MX world, they seem like a good idea on paper and in the marketing. All the teams buy into them and then the top riders like Dungey and Reed realize...actually I can't sodding well feel the front end.

And the guys that have to do it all alone and push every step of the way to get it done are doing it because... it sucks?

And the guys that have to do it all alone and push every step of the way to get it done are doing it because... it sucks?

As a way to differentiate themselves from Trek, Santa Cruz and Specialized because their bikes and riders are inferior. They know they can't hope to compete with the likes of Gwin on the mountain bike to a Honda GP bike - so they'll just try and sell some quackery as the next big thing.....using the slogan....it's goes faster cuz it's got bigger wheels yeah.....and idiots will then buy them.

OK, so- the reason that 29ers aren't used must be performance. And the reason 650B is being used must be for marketing. And there's no way that these arguments could possibly be reversed. Oh and you can tell that bigger wheels are a bad idea because the teams and manufacturers currently on top, who have the greatest desire for stability, haven't pushed for a change which could disadvantage them.

Let's wait and see. 650B is already performing better than most people expected at the highest level, despite the hardware handicaps. And let's be honest, what works for the best riders doesn't always work for the dobbers, it just influences what they buy. I reckon I could benefit more from a bigger wheel than the pros 😉 But nobody plans to sell bikes by racing less well.

OK, so- the reason that 29ers aren't used must be performance. And the reason 650B is being used must be for marketing. And there's no way that these arguments could possibly be reversed. Oh and you can tell that bigger wheels are a bad idea because the teams and manufacturers currently on top, who have the greatest desire for stability, haven't pushed for a change which could disadvantage them.

Let's wait and see. 650B is already performing better than expected at the highest level, despite the hardware handicaps. And let's be honest, what works for the best riders doesn't always work for the dobbers, it just influences what they buy. I reckon I could benefit more from a bigger wheel than the pros

If Trek thought they could get an advantage over Santa Cruz with a 29er they'd have tested one in the worlds by now.

650B might end up competing but everything I've read, including timed races has indicated they offer no advantages over 26ers.

Downhillers don't want big easy rolling wheels, they want bikes you can bounce off terrain more easily like this.

Sure there are people who can throw 29ers around pretty well but they are not optimal for that use at all.

I like big fat 2.4 inch dual plys in the right conditions.....these weigh a ****ing bomb on 26inch bikes.....imagine how much they'd weigh on a 29er.....I don't really want to have to lose tyre diameter to save weight as it really helps with the maximum lean angle and stability in corners.

Then there's the whole issue of the chainstay length in 29ers.....so increased CS length and rotating weight.....great....just what I want for doing manuals, popping off terrain and executing sudden directional changes on the ground or in the air.

In fact watching that video....Sam Hill would had a tyre shaped burn mark on his arse had that been a 29er.

As that video shows, the rider and the bike are a highly dynamic machine....looking at the way Sam moves around on that bike he's clearly not going to go faster just because bigger wheels roll over stuff more easily.

650B might end up competing but everything I've read, including timed races has indicated they offer to advantages over 26ers.

When has there ever been an equal comparison though, for downhill?

Thing is... We were talking about downhill at all levels, not just the top end. And at the moment, it's just impossible for anyone to buy a proper 29er dh bike. But if they existed, even if nobody ever used one at the top end, folks would be using them at the dobber end. And probably some would benefit, because most folks can't ride like sam hill but anyone can trundle down a hill 😉 The world cup isn't the be-all and end-all, just look at the number of folks that buy Orange DH bikes.

No I don't see that people would be using them - the hardest bit of downhill is anything that is related to going airborne or picking the right lines and hitting them. If you can't ride an 8 to 10 inch travel bike through a rock garden and need 29 inch wheels your doing something so horrendously wrong that you should just give up and quit the sport.

Even total n00bs on the race circuit need to be able to manual stuff and hip jumps - A 29er with an insanely long chainstay and 7 inches of travel would make this harder. Downhill bikes are already hard enough to chuck about as they are.

Orange DH bikes

Nothing wrong with aluminium single pivots. It's the geometry, sizing, tyres, correct basic suspension setup, frame stiffness and a good feel of the front contact patch that really count.

Lord knows how this has got onto 29er DH bikes, STW eh. Anyway, I'm not too convinced about the chainstay length argument....specialized enduro 26 v 29.......11mm difference. 11mm. I struggle with the idea that half an inch is the difference between being Sam Hill and being a mincer....

11mm difference. 11mm.

And also a much larger wheel to rotate around and find them balance spot.

I am convinced, ever tried a full downhill bouncer with a ridiculously long chain stay compared to one with a nice short one? It's the difference between making certain jumps relatively easy and fun and turning them into a complete chore - and also turning manuals into a chore. It's the combination of the 180mm to 200mm of travel and that long chainstay that does it.

It all adds up as well, when your constantly trying to lift your bike around on a 5-10 minute downhill run do you really want to become even more fatigued by the extra weight of pedaling, the extra effort put into correcting jumps where you stray offline, the extra effort that you have to put into manualing due to the CS and wheel size.

Then theres the fact that smaller riders are more affected by these things than others, do you think an average height rider is going to be able to ride a 29er downhill bike as well as a 6 foot 5 rider could?

Are they going to produce two sets of Boxxers, one 29 and one 26 for different height riders and bump prices up even further? Upside down forks are the answer you'll say! Because those have worked really well so far! DVO might manage to make a USD fork work for pedal bikes I guess, might being the emphasis. Even then they'd have to ship with different optional internals to alter travel etc.

Lots of work for **** all gain.

I'm not suggesting a longer/shorter chainstay is better/worse, just that i don't believe it's as big an issue as you're making out. I can't believe 11mm will turn a good handling bike into a poor one. The bike has to be considered as a whole, not just one measurement.

And where a 29er may take more effort in certain situations in others the added stability and grip could be beneficial, no? Swings and roundabouts.

CS length makes a huge difference to me on big bouncey bikes.

I'm not sure you'd even have much extra grip in the downhill discipline, your going to have to lose some tyre diameter so you don't have an incredibly heavy wheel set. More momentum in rock sections and more grip when the bike is leaned up straight? For sure....but since when did mountain bikes have engines and need copious amounts of straight line grip to get the power down? More grip at high lean angles compared to a higher volume, lower pressure tyre? Debatable.

The question is whether that increase in roll over is worth it considering all the other areas where you lose performance - weight, maneuverability, loss of suspension travel to accommodate larger wheels etc.

Don't need grip when you're going so fast you're floating over the stuff anyway.

The bike has to be considered as a whole, not just one measurement.

A bike MUST BE RIGHT ON PAPER!!!!

Grip is grip, whether it be downhill, uphill or alonghill (did i just invent a new niche?!). If grip WASN'T an issue you'd surely throw your dual ply booger tyres away and revel in having a lighter bike because of that?

If grip WASN'T an issue you'd surely throw your dual ply booger tyres away

Don't need grip when you're going so fast you're floating over the stuff anyway.

While watching Mr Hill close up in the flesh on the weekend it is true grip is not required AT TIMES however once he had finished skipping and floating down one section the hook out at the end and the small touches he was making to change direction etc showed that grip was at a premium when it was required.

Yeah but there's different types of grip isn't there - there's straight line grip and cornering grip. I assume the latter of which can be affected by tyre volume. Not only that, you're taking some of the bounce and grip out by running skinnier tyres as they are less able to deform to the tertain. Why would I choose to run higher diameter skinner heavier tyre's and wheels when I can run lighter wider rims and higher volume tyres to gain grip?

But no, I wouldn't chuck the 2.4 dual plys because there's a fine line between grip and weight and I don't think 2.4 dual ply's on a 29er would hit that fine line.

There's such thing as having to much grip as well - kind of see rolling resistance.....

Touches he was making to change direction etc showed that grip was at a premium when it was required.

And those changes would become harder to make if the rotating mass of the wheels became higher - lack of grip might cost you time - so can not having enough time to lay the bike down from one corner to the next.

I concur, back to swings and roundabouts thing again. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away.

Personally, i'm open to the idea of a 29er DH bike. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Has anyone other than Intense had a crack at one?

p.s my experience of 29ers is that i have MORE time to get the bike set up for corners or direction changes as i'm having less to deal with in terms of the bike moving around, being knocked off line etc

I think everyone's forgetting that a 29er DH bike won't happen because they physically can't fit 8" of travel and 29" wheels in a well handling bike.

KHS and Scott so we're back to my original point.

I could almost see the point of 29 inch downhill bikes on a limited set of tracks.....but I'd only have one if was already rocking a 26 inch bike as I think that wheel size is way more versatile for downhill.

I think everyone's forgetting that a 29er DH bike won't happen because they physically can't fit 8" of travel and 29" wheels in a well handling bike.

I did mention that as well, I don't think wheels slow down energy transfer in medium to big repeated hits in the same way that another inch of suspension travel does.

More travel also = more small bump sensitivity = more grip.

Personally, i'm open to the idea of a 29er DH bike. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Has anyone other than Intense had a crack at one?

I think Orange are bringing out a long slack 29er at some point. Somebody should start a thread about it 🙂

Point taken, thread derailment over on my behalf.

bwaarp - Member

Are they going to produce two sets of Boxxers, one 29 and one 26

Fox say they're going to production with the 650B- no different.

Nothing wrong with aluminium single pivots

Never said there was- obviously I was using it as a demonstration that people's buying habits aren't ruled by world cups or what's new and exciting, not making any comment on the bike (I own one 😉 Some day I might finish putting it together)

No I don't see that people would be using them

Look at what people use as it is! Everything from world cup reps to shed-welded hardtails, and yes, 29ers. I totally stand by it, if there were clown DH bikes to buy, people would be riding them.

As for dualplies- again, watch this space, Schwalbe were testing their SG carcass in the world cup last year and Sam Hill's raced on a version of Specialized's SX (though I don't know if that was at world cup level- also I don't know if it was a race in which he had a horrible crash 😉 )

Point taken, thread derailment over on my behalf.

It's OK, I was just having a laugh. It's not my thread anyway and I'm quite enjoying this discussion. Just couldn't resist, sorry 🙂

I think the thread had pretty much petered out til Bwaarp gave it an injection of Heated Debate 🙂

I bet the Santa Cruz Syndicate will be on 650b or maybe even 29" for Worlds.

I very much doubt the winner will be on 26".

I very much doubt the winner will be on 26".

Why, cuz it rolls better?

Bahahahahahaaaaaaaa.

Come 2015, I'm going to revisit this thread and laud the fact that no one will have won a DH worlds on a 29er over you guys. Big time.

Fox say they're going to production with the 650B- no different.

I see it's also a 180mm fork, wonder how much a 29er Fox 40 would lose in travel.

I have less against 650b though, they may possibly take off....not 29 for DH though. No way, not ever, not in a bazzilion years. The UCI fashion police will ban them like they did with skin suits for starters.

Come 2015, [s]I'm going to revisit this thread and laud it big time over all of you.[/s]we should all be just getting on with riding bikes

Why, cuz it rolls better?

Bahahahahahaaaaaaaa.

In short yes. Well and they have more cornering grip with the same section tyre as a 26". Do you know where Worlds is this year? A 180mm 29" would own a 220mm 26" on that course.

I doubt a fork manufacturer would entertain the one off lowers but if they did I bet SC would build a rear triangle.

bwaarp - Member

I see it's also a 180mm fork, wonder how much a 29er Fox 40 would lose in travel.

You'd expect about another inch I suppose. Pop quiz- according to Aaron Gwin, how many times did he use the full travel of his forks in race runs last year?

bwaarp - Member

Come 2015, I'm going to revisit this thread and laud the fact that no one will have won a DH worlds on a 29er over you guys.

Nobody's said that it's going to happen in this thread, but by all means have a go 😉

(pop quiz answer- 0)

Northwind stop hauling this one from the dead 🙂

Gwinn sets up super stiff so I'd expect once per race.

As to the rest of it who cares did somebody say there would be a filing cabinet with bigger drawers coming out?

Nobody's said that it's going to happen in this thread, but by all means have a go

I'd like to see it happen, even only if its to see pinkbike explode.

Come 2015, I'm going to revisit this thread and laud the fact that no one will have won a DH worlds on a 29er over you guys. Big time.

You're not, because threads lock after a year and you can't reopen them.

/pedantry

Andy

In short yes. Well and they have more cornering grip with the same section tyre as a 26". Do you know where Worlds is this year? A 180mm 29" would own a 220mm 26" on that course.

In short, no....see all the factors I've listed to see it's not a clear cut case.

Add drag from the larger wheel cross section in as well.

Nope don't see how the 2013 Champs track is conducive to 29ers.

The top end is tight steep and very technical in places with some pretty hairy drops. This requires a bike that can be easily handled in the air, a bike that can change direction quickly and a bike that can accelerate quickly.

The bottom section is fast and open.....it would be conducive to 29ers except that there's hardly any rock gardens in it. So I'd place a guess that the drag from the wheels would negate any additional roll over and grip

You'd expect about another inch I suppose. Pop quiz- according to Aaron Gwin, how many times did he use the full travel of his forks in race runs last year?

Physics lesson, even if he only used the last inch of his travel a couple of times you are still increasing how quickly the spring rate rises by going to 180mm.

If it bothers you that much, simply don't buy one. If 29ers are your thing though, this one is bound to be mint, cheap cranks or not.

bwaarp - Member

Physics lesson, even if he only used the last inch of his travel a couple of times you are still increasing how quickly the spring rate rises by going to 180mm.

His answer is that he used the full travel precisely no times. And that's not as unique as people think- Leov and Fairclough both run theirs harder apparently, and I can't think of a single pro saying anything other than harder is better, lately. Though, that's one thing that possibly won't transfer back to knobbers as well, we tend to like ours softer.

Physics lesson- nah, wrong assumption, less travel doesn't have to mean shorter spring. If they decide the current spring behaviour is desirable, it'd be very simple to use the exact same spring rate and length but have less travel, and just have more "unused" spring. The fork is the same length, remember.

Fair point.

Also, I don't get why in the case of 650b we can't just develop massively wider rims (eg 1800 gram per pair 40mm wide wheels like the Syntace ones) and run much taller tyres.

For the the average rider this would be a much better way of going about things...they do this in enduro motocross at the back end....they move down a rim size but keep the overall diameter of rim+tyre the same....supposedly helps with rider fatigue over long rides.

DH riders do a 3-10 min time run - all mountain riders are out all day....a bit more bounce is always nice for that situation.

The bottom section is fast and open.....it would be conducive to 29ers except that there's hardly any rock gardens in it. So I'd place a guess that the drag from the wheels would negate any additional roll over and grip

I guess you missed the bit in the middle where they were pedalling for a minute....

Drag of the wheels? What you on about? The frictional losses easily overcome the extra wheel weight. The extra stability from the BB drop means they could pedal to the lip of those tables. The bike would be way more stable than a 26" with 30mm more travel.

It'll never happen because what's the point in winning on a bike that a company doesn't manufacture. No doubt about it though, a DH 29" would absolutely monster that track with a guy like Minnaar on it.

I remember when the Worlds was at Camberra and the world (internet) said shorter lighter air sprung bikes would win etc. Some bloke from yorkshire took it out on his normal 10" coil sprung thing....

Which ever way I'm sure everyone can have a congratulatory told you so and what if.

The future is unknown so unless you have crystal balls you don't know 🙂

Drag of the wheels

Wind resistance, I still don't buy 29ers being any good for downhill. How come intense ditched the 29 inch version of the 951 after testing it and went to 650b instead?

Pedaling right to the lip of jumps? Have you ever even raced DH before? You don't pedal right to the lip of jumps because it throws you off line even with a BB a bit more below the axles of the wheel that isn't going to change....believe me I've tried some bikes with really slammed bottom brackets. Besides that with many jumps you have to lay off the speed a bit or squash them so you don't overcook the jump.

What are you on about....no point in winning on bikes they don't manufacture? Yes there is, for development purposes and brand image. Teams start using new bikes way before the general public get their hands on them so that they can test and develop their products. As I said earlier, companies would push 29ers in DH if they thought it would give them a winning advantage.....people would then buy them.

It's really obvious how little you know about the DH race scene man. I'm guessing your an XC jockey who bought into the 29 hype.

Yes, yes.....29ers are definitely going to relegate 26ers to history.

http://www.bikemag.com/news/brian-lopes-wins-inaugural-world-cup-xc-eliminator/

Won on a 26er.

http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/29er-bikes-inferior-world-cup-circuit-26ers-dominate-both-mens-womens-races-782893.html

29ers get owned where acceleration is important

http://reviews.mtbr.com/26er-or-29er-which-was-faster-at-the-24-hours-in-the-old-pueblo?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

29ers get owned in an endurance race.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/nino-schurter-wins-world-cup-1-on-650b-wheels-33467/

650b stomps on 29ers.

Basically in anything that requires lots of speed changes or elevation changes..... 29ers get destroyed.

The UK downhill scene requires good handling in tight low speed corners and acceleration under pedaling.

Both something which it seems 29ers suck balls for.

For XC I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

650b stomps on 29ers.

Nino Schurter wins everything, he's sponsored by Scott, Scott are pushing 650b. Quick, new fad out, buy again!

Yes, yes.....29ers are definitely going to relegate 26ers to history.

http://www.bikemag.com/news/brian-lopes-wins-inaugural-world-cup-xc-eliminator/

Won on a 26er.

http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/29er-bikes-inferior-world-cup-circuit-26ers-dominate-both-mens-womens-races-782893.html

29ers get owned where acceleration is important

http://reviews.mtbr.com/26er-or-29er-which-was-faster-at-the-24-hours-in-the-old-pueblo?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

29ers get owned in an endurance race.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/nino-schurter-wins-world-cup-1-on-650b-wheels-33467/

650b stomps on 29ers.

Basically in anything that requires lots of speed changes or elevation changes..... 29ers get destroyed.

The UK downhill scene requires good handling in tight low speed corners and acceleration under pedaling.

Both something which it seems 29ers suck balls for.

Obviously it was the bikes that won the races and nothing to do with the people riding them......

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