ransos - MemberHow do you know? He might have had headphones on, been drunk, clearly saw the cyclist coming etc etc...
As I understand it, the cyclist was RLJing. Therefore, it is the cyclist's fault.
If only life were so simple.
Did your road club take group rides through jammed up traffic?
We set off from a town, we pass through towns.
The point I'm making is when a club is out, riding safely, calling out when a car is approaching, waiting at lights, and Mr 40+ Cervelo rides down the middle of the road and cuts in front of the car at the front of the queue, that rubs off on all of us.
As cyclists we are representing each other, other people poor calls effect me next time that driver THEY pissed off passes me.
We've got a responsibilty to each other as a collective, do some people not see that
I must admit that I have gone through some red lights in the car, when it has been perfectly safe to do so. It's fine if you want to label me as some sort of menace on the roads, because I know that isn't the case and I'm not really bothered what you nutters think.
The only reason I don't do it more often is that if I do it on my bike and a Policeman sees me he flashes his lights and shakes his head at me, end of story. (Has happened once turning left at a junction where there *should* be a left turn filter light for that phase of the lights as nothing can cross the junction to go that way at that time) If I do the same in the car it's inevitable that I'll be pulled and have the book thrown at me. Those are the practicalities of the situation.
I'm not sure why my motives are under question, I don't see anything wrong with wanting to make good progress and to make the minimum number of stops during a training ride, so long as you don't endanger anyone whilst doing so. Why is it selfish when my actions have no impact on anyone else?
If you take the time to examine it more closely, there are shades of grey...
It's not black and white at all.
clearly there are only two people on here who think it isnt - in the eyes of the law, its black and white.
just going to be going round in circles on this one - so i'll stop posting on this thread.
+1 paulrockliffe
The public perception argument is complete rubbish. Car drivers dislike cyclists for selfish reasons, they use the RLJ thing to express their dislike because they don't have a rational reason. If they understood that every cyclist is one less car sat in front of them in their queue there wouldn't be the same antagonism.
+2 paulrockliffe !
How do you know? He might have had headphones on, been drunk, clearly saw the cyclist coming etc etc...
So as long as I run people over who are rocking out, drunk or have seen me on pedestrian crossings, it's shared blame? 🙄
I come from a road club background the sort of things people are talking about just would not be acceptable by the old guard in our club, you'd be asked not to come back.
I come from a road club and all road men I know run red lights, go on pavements go down wrong side of the road when there are ques of traffic. What road club are you from the boring-vicars.c.c or the Jobsworth.c.c?
in the eyes of the law, its black and white.
No-one's disputed that.
The main point discussed has been safety.
Why is it selfish when my actions have no impact on anyone else?
Is it not selfish because it perpetuates the myth that all cyclists are RLJing hooligans?
Alex, you come out with Leeds chaingang without mudguards between 1st October and beginning of March and you're made to ride at the back and if you come back again without them, well, no one does it a second time.
They have behavioural code, not written, but you soon find out when you've broken it.
How does it perpetuate anything if the only person that knows about it is me? I suppose some drivers might read this thread and form an opinion, but honestly, I think my swift progress ranks higher than that given the probabilities of that happening.
Mudguards make perfect sense in a chaingang in winter. What's your point exactly?
Oh so that rule is only applicable to chaingangs in Leeds is it? Becauses I seem to remember that happening to me. Yet still the old road men I ride with ride on pavements, wrong side of road, through red lights where applicable. Not all the time, not for instance on the wrong side of the road when there is no traffic and the bike is clearly the slowest road user.
[edit]I would also suggest that your club has something written down about chaigangs and mudguards. Unless of course they're not a very organisd club? [/edit]
atlaz - Member
So as long as I run people over who are rocking out, drunk or have seen me on pedestrian crossings, it's shared blame?
My point is that it is possible that the ped could have had some share of the blame. Unlikely, yes, but possible.
Well Alex, the guys I ride with don't because we are not knobs and we think that people who do all these things are knobs.
So now you are calling me a nob?
[edit] for what its worth I live at the top of a hill that feeds down into part a junction on a main road that is part of the commuter route; for me to sit behind the queue of traffic would mean me hobbling down this hill and it would take me 30 mins to get to the meeting spot for the weekday chaingangs when if I rolled down on the wrong side or on the pavement or I took the journey when not at rush hour would take me less than 2 minutes. Are you really suggesting you would stand behind all the cars and take a tiny step at a time? [/edit]
I suppose some drivers might read this thread and form an opinion
Yes, yes they might...
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I'm calling people who ride on pavements, jump red lights, go down one way streets the wrong way because its convenient to them, and in turn give cyclists a bad name knobs.
But we're not talking about club rides RLJing are we? We're talking about individuals commuting mostly. No doubt there are a lot of people on this forum who ride with clubs (I have), and some might even understand this code you speak of, but comparing a club ride to someone RLJing on the way to work for whatever reason isn't really the same is it?The point I'm making is when a club is out, riding safely, calling out when a car is approaching, waiting at lights, and Mr 40+ Cervelo rides down the middle of the road and cuts in front of the car at the front of the queue, that rubs off on all of us.
paulrockliffe +2
I'm agreeing with Ben on that one.
Tony, to the majority of drivers a cyclist is a cyclist, they don't care if its a £99 pound Argos bike or a £5k superbike.
Ultimately, the behaviour displayed by cyclists in cities, which is where, I would expect, most people see them, is what is used by them to form an opinion.
If enough of us behave badly, we all get a bad name.
edit- the reason I mention club rides, is when we get buzzed by some arsehole in a car its more than likely because they spend Monday to Friday having the wing mirrors clipped by cyclists who show little respect for other road users.
And there we have it. Insulting people doesn't really strengthen your argument much, I think you probably just called out every member of this forum other than yourself!I'm calling people who ride on pavements, jump red lights, go down one way streets the wrong way because its convenient to them, and in turn give cyclists a bad name knobs.
BenHouldsworth - MemberI'm calling people who ride on pavements, jump red lights, go down one way streets the wrong way because its convenient to them, and in turn give cyclists a bad name knobs.
Even the ones that aren't seen doing so? Who's the knob then? ;)Or are they only letting [i]themselves[/i] down?
This is one part yes, but as has been very well put by others a lot of drivers (people in general) form opinions regardless of experience. There is also the fact that a lot of drivers have quite possibly never ridden on a busy road so don't understand what the real risks of their actions might be.Ultimately, the behaviour displayed by cyclists in cities, which is where, I would expect, most people see them, is what is used by them to form an opinion.
Speculation, it could equally be they just had a row with their missus, or they want to get to the bookies before the 11:00 at Haydock.the reason I mention club rides, is when we get buzzed by some arsehole in a car its more than likely because they spend Monday to Friday having the wing mirrors clipped by cyclists who show little respect for other road users.
Just as possible is that the idiot that nearly ran me into a ditch this morning (only to get to the next junction and wait for me to pass him again) did so because he got caught behind a club ride at the weekend. (Not yours of course)
Not yours of course
Absolutely, he wouldn't be able to keep up
I'm not particularly convinced that cyclists can have or need to have a good name with drivers. It's not a case that some cyclists behave badly, it's that some people are idiots, whether they're on a bike or in a car. It just so happens that more people drive cars so there are more idiots in cars. They dislike you for selfish reasons, not because they once saw someone else jump a red light.
If drivers understood the RLJ thing from a cyclists point of view they wouldn't get annoyed and cyclists wouldn't 'have a bad name'.
It's ridiculous that some cyclists can't form their own opinion on these issues, but take their opinion from a minority of drivers that are simply wrong.
why? seriously why? You as a motorist don't feel shamed by 1 idiot driver doing stupid stuff, you don't feel the need to apologise for his behaviour, it's one lone nutter (well there may be more than one) why should it reflect badly on you as a driver/cyclist.and Mr 40+ Cervelo rides down the middle of the road and cuts in front of the car at the front of the queue, that rubs off on all of us.
Minority groups in action again.
there's a bit of discussion about the fact that people (drivers) see a green light as a carte blanche to tear arse through a junction despite the fact there maybe pedestrians etc about. Green doesn't mean go ahead and damn everyone else. eg if there is someone a bit slow on their feet crossing the road and the lights change you aren't allowed to run them over. Same as a pedestrian is allowed to cross the road anywhere but shouldn't just blithely walk out in front of traffic. Also if [i]motor[/i] traffic is backed up and someone steps onto the road while you are filtering you'd expect the ped to take some/most of the blame.My point is that it is possible that the ped could have had some share of the blame. Unlikely, yes, but possible.
However trying to defend a cyclist who ran a red and hit a pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing is a bit too much of a stretch IMO
D0NK - Member
However trying to defend a cyclist who ran a red and hit a pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing is a bit too much of a stretch IMO
I agree - which is precisely why I'm not doing that.
My point is that it is possible that the ped could have had some share of the blame. Unlikely, yes, but possible.
Not if the cyclist was RLJing.
Wrong, sorry.
Wrong, sorry.
Yep, RLJing is wrong. Knock someone over when you're doing it, and it's your fault. No-one else's.
Yep, RLJing is wrong. Knock someone over when you're doing it, and it's your fault. No-one else's.
What if you just had your bike serviced and left the shop only the bike service centre did a sub par job/didn't do it but signed it off brakes then fail etc. Is it your fault then?
What if you just had your bike serviced and left the shop only the bike service centre did a sub par job/didn't do it but signed it off brakes then fail etc. Is it your fault then?
You'd ride off without checking your brakes? Yes, that would be your fault.
Any other highly unlikely scenarios you'd like to imagine?
ransos, you've clearly not thought about what I've said, if you want to label yourself stupid, up to you.
alex it's your responsibility to have a road worthy bike, but you could claim against the LBS.
So you pick your bike up from 'the bike shop at the top of the hill' check the brakes in the car park. They seem fine so you pay. You pedal off down the hill the lights change and shock horror your brakes don't work because whilst the brakes seem fine in the car park they weren't up to the task as they hadn't been correctly adjusted/serviced. Crossing the road is a nun with a pram full of orphans and you kill them all out right. Then Ransos pops his head from behind the hedge next to the crossing and wags his finger whilst tutting loudly.
Well you've still got an unroadworthy bike, so yes you're at fault I guess
ransos, you've clearly not thought about what I've said, if you want to label yourself stupid, up to you.
I've thought about what you said. You're wrong. You could try to be more wrong, but you would be unsuccessful.
I don't feel the need to label you when you so helpfully plastered your wrongness all over the internet.
I guess
That sounds a bit like a shade of grey to me.
RLJ due to failed brakes could perhaps be deemed as an accident since you weren't intentionally RLJing, but I suspect you'd have to be able to prove that and should still accept some responsibility for riding an un-roadworthy bike.
So you pick your bike up from 'the bike shop at the top of the hill' check the brakes in the car park. blah
Yes, it's your fault. You're going to have to try harder!
RLJ due to failed brakes could perhaps be deemed as an accident since you weren't intentionally RLJing, but I suspect you'd have to be able to prove that and should still accept some responsibility for riding an un-roadworthy bike.
Sounds like another shade of the aforementioned grey.
So you pick your bike up from 'the bike shop at the top of the hill' check the brakes in the car park. blah
Yes, it's your fault. You're going to have to try harder!
What is your profession? Lawyer?
sorry for making a typo
