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I bought an Orbea Alma earlier this year and the 2011 model that is no different to the 2010 model is about £1000 more expensive. Thinking I got a bargain now!
"Mugboo - Member
I think its great that Orange and Hope, etc, can make and sell 'premium' products, lets just all enjoy living the dream.
If not we would all drive a Kia?"
Some would say that the Orange hardtails are essentially Kias with union jack stickers over the namebadge. I'll buy "made in the UK" as an explanation for the bikes that are, but not for the far eastern ones, they're just laughably expensive. My Hemlock's just as british as a P7, but it doesn't have a british price tag.
Like I said on a previous thread.....
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= this...
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Is that really THAT expensive for what I've got? Considering that I'm very, very happy with it, I wasn't even bothered about the price & the fact that I didn't want a far eastern, mass produced frame.
I'm old & old fashioned, I wanted a frame that was BUILT in Britain (like my HT) with a few British bits on, built up in a British bike shop, to give a bit of income to British companies. Don't go saying, 'well Shimano, Easton, Fox...etc aren't British' cos thats a bit of common knowledge innit?
Both my bikes are a bit unique & if you don't like the price, buy summink else, plenty of off the peg stuff to go at out there.
IMO Fives, Alpines etc aren't bad value. Sometimes not sensibly specced, which makes them less good buys than they could be but they're not that far off the competitors. And they are damn fine. It's the hardtails that are taking the mick
Trying to stay on topic as i also have a large array of britishness in my garage that i can go on about at length.
I have never ridden a P7 but they tend to do very well in the tests i read, having just bought a blue pig to replace a 456 (if i dont keep it) it would be interesting to know how it compares. it uses a reynold 631 tubeset so the blurb says or is this the main tubes? these cheaper tubes (compared to the soul etc) appear to compromise weight rather than the ride, and the ride disguises the weight.
As above, bikes are now made in taiwan due to the expertise they have and the quality they can achieve. Cost is secondary even in these hard times.
There is a relentless price hike which probably means people will be buying for things to last longer/get used more so maybe people like orange will benefit as they are a known quantity with a well proven product.
Comodities, labour, fuel etc are rising relentlessly (although no pay rise for 5 years here) which has to have a knock on effect.
Anyone know how many bikes orange sell a year?
"Northwind
I feel the same way about my Hemlock which is covered in Hope stuff but if an Orange hardtail makes someone feel good then why not?
I'm a tight arse so my bikes are an ex demo Hemlock and a second hand Summer Season (powdercoated in met black) with an always improving spec bought at bargain prices as they come up.
I like to kid myself that i buy British, it makes me feel good.
Just to add, my mate bought a mint P7 off of Ebay last year and the second hand price is way cheaper than new. So let those that want to bash the credit card go ahead and the rest of us can claen up later! 😀
esselgruntfuttock - MemberLike I said on a previous thread.....
Big windows at BikeScene?
The problem lays within the customers not orange. There will always be people who think paying more means they get more.
Especially the single pivot crowd who uptalk their overpriced frames ability to compensate for the price. Is it 600 better than the heckler? No where near.
The same folk will be overpaying for building work when they are OAP's.
Orange have no "problem".
Lots of lovely staff, selling good quantities of bikes, through long standing dealers. Supporting racers all the while, from Steve Peat, Greg Minaar etc...
Orange is still owned and managed by Lester and Steve who created the roots of company back in the late '80's, and industry leg-end Michael Bonney who's been there for *ages* too.
Sustainable business. Not to be sniffed at.
What I don't understand is, similar to the the other thread about 29" wheels, why do Orange bikes ignite so many strong feelings; in this case it's usually from the naysayers. Why is that?
On a similar vein, why do Orange get criticised so much about their pricing yet, for example, Pace do not. Their frames are Taiwan made but are virtually as expensive as Orange. And why do Cotic Hemlock owners seem so overjoyed at £1080 for foreign goods but think Orange owners are being ripped off for UK built at £1399. Really, it's not that big a difference is it?
I like Orange bikes because in my personal experience they ride nicer than the competition I've tried, they rarely go wrong and when they do the company is easy and pleasant to deal with, and last but not least they're British. Why would I chunter about the price when to me it's exactly what I want out of a bike without making any compromises?
I suspect (though may be wrong) that Giant employ more people in the UK than some British brands so in a round about way maybe I'm supporting Britain after all but in all honesty I couldn't give monkeys where my bike comes from, its all food on someone's plate.
Orange have no "problem".Lots of lovely staff, selling good quantities of bikes, through long standing dealers. Supporting racers all the while, from Steve Peat, Greg Minaar etc...
Orange is still owned and managed by Lester and Steve who created the roots of company back in the late '80's, and industry leg-end Michael Bonney who's been there for *ages* too.
Sustainable business. Not to be sniffed at.
+1
Virtually every year Orange sell out of their main lines and have vast waiting lists, so clearly most people don't think they are over priced and think that the price is well worth the finished product.
podge: i hadn't thought of that - thatser very interesting angle.
i've got a Cotic, a Ragley, and a 20yr old Dawes my dad gave me - how many british workers have i supported?
4?
i'm not saying my bikes aren't brilliant, but i suspect there's more to this 'buy british' thing than i might think...
Cy and Brant are thoroughly lovely chaps who make nice interesting bikes, please buy more bikes from them so they can carry on making new things for me to play with.
On a similar vein, why do Orange get criticised so much about their pricing yet, for example, Pace do not
Good point well made. I now think Pace is bad value as well having looked into it 😀
Clearly Orange have arrived at their prices based on what they think the market will take. Seems to be working based on how much they get talked up here and in the mags. Fair play, the owners are going to make some money.
The thing that annoys me most is all this made in the UK crap. I work for a US company that employs 10,000 people in the UK - does that mean that people should or shouldn't buy my companies products? We live in a globalised world. Get over it.
If its an old Dawes than probably a lot more than 4. In fact even without the Dawes id say more than 4 but as Ewan says above, its globalisation. If the rest of the world thought the same than I guess that a lot of these British companies would really struggle as they'd have no export business and I suspect (again I may be wrong) that export is a big chunk of their market.
Mugboo - Member
"I feel the same way about my Hemlock which is covered in Hope stuff but if an Orange hardtail makes someone feel good then why not?"
Oh yeah, if someone wants to pay hundreds of quid over the mark for a bike that's absolutely fine, unless they're out robbing pensioners to fund it 😉 I think it's a bit of a shame and I like to poke fun at people for doing it but it's their money.
CRC own Ragley yes?
correct
Orange - Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices!
I brought a P7 pro last year and hated the way it rode so swapped the frame for a 456. Considering the 456 is less than half price for a P7 frame the welds and paint job on the 456 put the P7 to shame.
Kuco - I brought a P7 pro last year and hated the way it rode so swapped the frame for a 456. Considering the 456 is less than half price for a P7 frame the welds and paint job on the 456 put the P7 to shame.
Ah, but that is where Orange supporting the scene comes into play. One One don't sponsor a team, or events or anything like that. Orange have put a lot back into the sport. When you buy an Orange you are buying into the sport, when you buy an On One you are buying a frame.
On-one sponsor riders don't they? at least they used to. As do planetx (same company I think).
OO and PX are the same company but that is irrelevant.
Maybe OO do kind of sponsor a couple of people but no where near the same standard that Orange do. Plus OO is direct sales / mailorder not through dealerships so comparing the two isn't really fair
you are buying into the sport
Not interested in the "sport" Would rather have the goods at a sensible price regardless of what I am buying.
How many buy a VW thinking they ae supporting the very lovely Trek rider Emily Baty?
Clearly Orange have arrived at their prices based on what they think the market will take. Seems to be working based on how much they get talked up here and in the mags. Fair play, the owners are going to make some money.
Yup. They have the Halifax sheet metal works where they make some of the bikes. Space is limited so they can only make X number of bikes and they obviously need to sell at £X... to make money. All businesses need to make profit to survive and develop better/new products. Doubt if they want to, or have the means to increase capacity if they want to keep brand loyalty by keeping it British. The day may come tho.
Lester, Steve and Mike are getting on a bit now tho and may be looking to retire? Orange owners already support Steves wanderings around Europe in his lovely big motorhome. However he does work on the go designing and testing bits all over the place.
Like any business who wish the customer to believe they are buying something special the trick is to make limited numbers, have waiting lists and charge a premium.
Like any new product if you can afford it you will buy it, if you can
t you wont. Simples!!!FWIW I like the 5 and would certainly have one before considering a Yeti or Santa Cruz but if I could would probably select from the Trk/Spec or maybe the Cannondale range.
Now I have started dreaming again, time to wake up 🙄
I bought two frames on the back of 10/10 marks from certain mags. If I had ridden them first I'd have come to an earlier conclusion on certain editorial/journos.
My chameleon is way above these two. When a frame talent compensates at all speeds you know its special.
The same mags never marked it above '4/5'.
In general, IMO why do santa cruz get a rougher deal than the likes of orange in uk mags?
hora,cos they are written by british journo's, who dont want to be seen slagging a british bike company.
I imagine a couple of them really can feel differences and explain/translate this coherently onto paper. The rest are probably just rippers who nail it as fast as they can down something but have no idea how it got down there so fast or what was happening.
esselgruntfuttock, I'd never pay £3,300 for a mountain bike. Not a critism of you- they just 'depreciate' too quickly to buy new nowadays and all of them are over inflated on pricing.
Hora, this was a one off believe me! If lady luck hadn't smiled I'd never have bought it. I'm pleased she did smile & I'm extremely pleased with it &, I think it's worth every penny, but I'd never have saved up or gone without other stuff to buy it.
It's probably the last time I'll ever spend that on a bike. 😕
Believe me if I had that much I'd buy a ti bling roadframe within minutes!
Mildred
As a Hemlock owner i have no probs with someone paying full whack for an Orange, wether its a Five or Crush.
I bought my Hemlock for £680 inc both rockers from Cy as an ex demo. Buying from this British company means that any spares have been quickly supplied and advice from Cy is almost instant.
I have found Hope to be the same and i assume Orange are too.
My bike wishlist reads
Orange Five
Orange Blood
Transition Covert
Nicolai AM
These are not in any real order and unless someone steals my Cotic then they are gonna stay a dream...
If cash is no problem then buy whatcha like and who cares if its really worth it if you love it.
It also doesn't matter if you can 'ride the wheels off it' or not, as long as it makes you smile and hopefully keeps you fit. 🙂
[i]If cash is no problem then buy whatcha like and who cares if its really worth it if you love it.
It also doesn't matter if you can 'ride the wheels off it' or not, as long as it makes you smile and hopefully keeps you fit.[/i]
Pre-f***ing-cisely! Never a truer word said.
Thats what mines doing for me.
On a general note do people think the Taiwanese leave in mudhuts and their machinery/cost to invest is cheap as they are savage locals? Investment and training took someone a lot of balls. The jump from small to large. People seem to think these factories must be magic and cheap to set up. True they won't be in fantastic locations or nice places to be in but then it is a factory ffs.
Just love the argument (implied) that fabricators/welders/workers here must be paid 'loads' or the cost of manufacturer here is a great deal more than overseas.
How much does an orange special colour cost?
There are a great deal of sprayshops in the north that can do the same quality for £30. You just need to tell them what you want and detail the quality.
Frames cost to ship and uk duty aint cheap is it to import.
Still if the market and reviews support the price. WHY NOT?
the issue is if you price lower than your competitors buyers will see your brand as possibly cheap for a reason.
the first image that came to mind when i thought 'taiwan' was one of a futuristic blade-runner-esque city, only with nicer weather.
1st image from google:
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they probably think [i]we[/i] live in mudhuts...
(and in my case they wouldn't be far from the truth)
i suspect that a lot of our frames are made in taiwan because they're very good at it.
Fox Floats - £400
Hope wheels - £250
SLX cranks - £100
Rear XT Front slx mech - £80
SLX Shifters - £60
Elixir 5 brakes - £200
Good Maxxis tyres - £50
Cassette and chain - £40
Finishing kit - £60
Headset £20
Frame - £500£1760 Costs £1800 off orange
I know you were sort of defending the price, but it's more usual for complete bikes to work out cheaper than the individual bits at RRP, isn't it?
Agree. If I have an established brand and I day to the account manager at Fox 'I'd like 400 32 Floats' for 2012 I'm sure he wouldn't charge me shop retail.
One thing I don't think anyone else mentioned is that they seem to spend a lot on marketing via sending dozens of test bikes out (most seemingly to ST mag) and running a very busy demo programme.
That would need to be budgeted for somewhere, even if it does drive extra sales.
There may be an element of trying to influence perception of their product via pricing, (ie. charge a lot and people will assume it is good), but that's only guessing.
Wish I had their "problem" though, as Orange seem to me to have a thriving business.
chakaping - MemberFox Floats - £400
Hope wheels - £250
SLX cranks - £100
Rear XT Front slx mech - £80
SLX Shifters - £60
Elixir 5 brakes - £200
Good Maxxis tyres - £50
Cassette and chain - £40
Finishing kit - £60
Headset £20
Frame - £500£1760 Costs £1800 off orange
I know you were sort of defending the price, but it's more usual for complete bikes to work out cheaper than the individual bits at RRP, isn't it?
I have mentioned this in a previous post. Those prices are NOT RRP, they are WHAT YOU WOULD GET THEM FOR at a good price ,say from merlin, crc. If the prices were RRP it would cost much more than the price of the Bike
Those prices are NOT RRP, they are WHAT YOU WOULD GET THEM FOR at a good price
Ah right, I'd say my point still stands though.
It's good that some people see that bike as good value though!
Demo bikes sell at cost?
There are some good arguments, pro's and con's here, and I won't try to interject anything new here, except to say :-
My first MTB back in about 1995, was a Claude Butler. Ok, but cumbersome, overbuilt and a bit "hard work".
Then I got a bonus at work, and went to a bike shop with a budget of £400. I tried Specialised Rockhoppers in both steel (ok) ali (awful) and Various Marins. All looked quite smart. Then I saw a little Clockwork in the corner of the shop. Frankly, it looked "plainer" than the others, but somehow "smarter" too. Not sure why or how, but the paint looked good, and the bike seemed to have "kerb appeal", it was lower, sleeker than anything else I'd tried.
The guy at the shop was really good, let me try out all the bikes I wanted, (Rayment Cycles Brighton, fwiw) and I thought I could just stretch my budget by £100 or so, and asked to try the Clockwork.
Now, I know all the frames were probably taiwanese, but as soon as I put a leg over the clockwork, that was it - it was a bit fast steering for the first few mins till I got used to it, a bit "bambi on ice", but for the first time, I realy could feel what the "frame" was doing on the bike, the bike just "zipped" with every pedal stroke - it came alive in my hands - even the seating position, further back, a bit less "shopper bike upright".
Frankly, it was so much better than the other bikes I tried, even with bargain basement alivio kit, that there was no use trying anything else. If I'd had the cash, I wouldn't have bought a better bike, just a Clockwork with an upgraded component spec.
It was the first bike I'd had since My Diamond Back Silverstreak BMX that really felt "special".
Thats why I bought my first Orange. - I haven't quite managed to capture the magic with subsequent p7's, but they are great workhorses, similar, but just a bit less "zippy" than the Clockwork.
So I buy Oranges as the just seem to work for me. - The P7 I have is a 99 spec bought in a sale in 01, and the finish is fantastically hard wearing - anything bolts to it I could possibly want - it all works, including the wheels which have never needed trueing from factory.
The only reason I am thinking of a change now, is the Pure 7 interests me as it looks more "lightly fabricated" than the p7, ie more like the Clockwork, whilst giving me a modern suspension length up front.
I have tried more modern rockhoppers and even had a Kona Muni Mula, in aly - all good, but none have the magic that my first clockwork had, and that the p7's have to a lesser extent. I am a slightly odd shape, and Orange's just seem to fit me better than the rest.
Thats why I buy Orange's, even knowing that it's Taiwanese fabrication. It still works bloody well as a bike, and are well built up by their dealers and at the factory.
Demo bikes sell at cost?
More like trade price I'd say.
But they pay peiople to drive round with all the bikes in a van. And they have to pay for the van. And the petrol. etc.
Let's just say one demo bike results in 5 sold at each biggish shop?
Pay people to drive them around? You mean people with "worldwide parcel delivery" livered down the sides? 😉
No, staff drive to demo days at bike shops and spend the day out riding with potential buyers.
I went on one, they were nice guys.
Ah "demo days". Different.
On a general note, how much do you think bike industry workers make? Not much, comparable to bikeshop staff and possibility upto store managers in the likes of Evans for account managers max I.e 20's NO higher.
I bet staff at on one are mainly casually employed and are storeroom/factory staff type-wages.
I also 'bet' that the big distributor(s) employ a lot of kiwi/oz etc transient staff doing the job as its partly their hobby and they are on a working visa etc.....
I also bet marketing managers are on peanuts at most places.
I bet staff at on one are mainly casually employed and are storeroom/factory staff type-wages.I also 'bet' that the big distributor(s) employ a lot of kiwi/oz etc transient staff doing the job as its partly their hobby and they are on a working visa etc.....
I also bet marketing managers are on peanuts at most places.
I have a friend working for a EU importer of a bike brand and I can tell you that you are talking (once again) your ass up. In an office of about 10 people he was the only genuine biker. And none of them was on low wedge or working on a visa.