[Closed] Not, are they any good, but, is it ok to buy chinese products direct?

On what levels is it wrong?

I know its a free world

Not in China it isn't.

Everyone who buys it pays import duty, our government gets their cut. If they then don't spend it on rebalancing the fact that Chinese goods are cheaper i.e. retraining our unemployed manufacturing workforce into service industry workers, isn't your problem with the UK government?

is it better to buy them indirectly?
then someone else can deal with the economic/ political/ moral issues?

I'm struggling with a single level on which it's wrong (counterfeit goods aside), let alone the "so many" of which you speak?

I think I can see where you're coming from but Brakes nails it, you can buy off well known companies and unless the owners are freegan hippy yoghurt weaving fairtraders they will have probably sourced their wares/had it made wherever was cheapest, in some cases china (or somewhere else with shite pay/conditions/screwed over workers)

Well basically with that atitude we are stuffed. You might as well all turn the lights out now. The import duty argument doesn't wash as it would create a trade war with china. Something the west isnt capable of doing. As for why keep the profit margins of design and development with the UK? Well it keeps those highly skilled jobs in the UK as simple as that. At least while UK companies have some control over working conditions in china then the workers get some rights. A solely chinese manufactured product will not be controlled at all. Or you could just wash your hands of all of it and buy what you want. Feed at the trough till you cant waddle away. Lets all buy cheap cheap cheap and not expect it to affect our lives.

buy what you want

Thank you

Aren't most carbon frames produced in the East? I think only Intense carbon frames are made in "The West".
So if the bike manufactures can use cheaper labour to have their stuff made then add a whopping mark-up because it's got a cool name on what is wrong, ethically or morally, in us, the end user, cutting out that % price hike?

How's that tin foil hat fitting?

As for why keep the profit margins of design and development with the UK? Well it keeps those highly skilled jobs in the UK as simple as that.

How many designers do Planet X have? 10? It's not exactly a colossal industry is it!? Their products are being made in the Far East, just like virtually every major brand out there, it's a bit late to save our manufacturing industry. How many brands are mass producing parts in the UK? Hope, Superstar are dabbling, USE/Exposure... erm... I'm struggling?

Well the latest one seems to be about buying carbon bars direct. Remind me again which carbon bars are designed and developed in the UK so that I can buy some of those?

Its so obvious that manufacturing is done abroad. Its really not a point worth making. Planet x will direclty and indirectly employ more than 10 people. Planet x are not the only company in the UK and bikes are not the only products in the UK. So with many companies still owned in the UK and controlling manufacturing abroad, there are 10's of thousands of jobs in the UK that are at risk. The service sector in the UK will not last long without some manufacturing base. If you take away the companies that control the brands you take away an important piece of the model and the model starts to break. How many people do Dyson employ? Yet they manufacture abroad.

I'm struggling with a single level on which it's wrong

The level I was thinking of was the "being made by people just like you and I that are denied the same working conditions, wages and basic freedoms that workers in this country have" level. Which ultimately means that this country can longer maintain a competitive manufacturing industry unless we were also to lower at least our working conditions and wages.

Like DONK said above it's no good buying from a well known western company as they've probably sourced their product from the cheapest supplier, which will leads us back to where we started.

The problem isn't the companies, they can't shift an ethically manufactured product in sufficient numbers because the average consumer won't pay the additional cost. if we were actually willing to pay a fair price for a product based on it's manufacture in conditions that we'd be happy to work under then we'd still have a manufacturing industry and a stronger more diverse economy.

As it is we are helping a country with an appalling human rights record, a distinct lack of environmental controls and a leadership intent on a path of expansionism to continue its growth.

The one point that i agree on is that it possibly is too late, we now expect everything from clothing to electronics to bike lights to be unrealistically cheap and I'm not sure if it's even possible to get people out of that mindset.

Its so obvious that manufacturing is done abroad. Its really not a point worth making. Planet x will direclty and indirectly employ more than 10 people. Planet x are not the only company in the UK and bikes are not the only products in the UK. So with many companies still owned in the UK and controlling manufacturing abroad, there are 10's of thousands of jobs in the UK that are at risk. The service sector in the UK will not last long without some manufacturing base. If you take away the companies that control the brands you take away an important piece of the model and the model starts to break. How many people do Dyson employ? Yet they manufacture abroad.

So what's your point? That if we buy a pair of handlebars from China, Dyson go out of business?

You seem to be flitting all over the place. What proportion of people in the UK are directly employed in manufacturing these days? That's been gradually declining for quite a while now, like 150 years...

Im not just talking about the UK. I am talking about europe and america. Both of which we have strong trade relationships with. Hell, even south america or other countries in the east asian region that have democracies.

hahaha... well it seems my question has been answered. No one really seems to care.

Good luck to saracen, orange, hope, planet x etc...

Good luck to saracen, orange, hope, planet x etc...

Who all benefit from Far East labour? Hope to a lesser extent I concede, but who makes their machines that they make bike parts with?

I would happily buy from china direct but I would make sure its from a company that has some back up in their products and not just from some factory worker on ebay.

njee my point is clear... dyson work on the same model as all the mtb brands, manufacture abroad, manage, design, engineer, market in the UK.

A large part of the uk economy works on this model. So if you buy direct you break the model you break the uk economy. Like a building one corner implodes you'll be lucky the rest doesnt go with it.

You say they are too expensive. all of your jobs are too expensive, thats the game. All of your jobs can be replaced.

Talking about UK manufacturing companies is different to talking about uk products. My title says products not manufacturing.

njee... i have stated a few times... it is obvious these products are manufactured abroad. That is the modern western production model.

My point is you cripple the UK economy bit by bit and you strengthen a communist regime. I question how right that is. Your choice is yours, but I personally think it is a wrong choice. Secondly and something that you can't avoid is that the material effect is a decline in the wealth and political (democratic) power of this country. To say there is nothing you can do to stop it isnt true. All the small choices add up. To simply give in, well...

You say they are too expensive. all of your jobs are too expensive, thats the game. All of your jobs can be replaced.

Who says that?

You remind me of the chap who stands on London Bridge ranting about religion and how I need to accept Jesus into my life, or be smited and what not.

strengthen a communist regime. I question how right that is

Ahh this is about some ancient idea of reds under the bed, the west vs the commies?

My point is you cripple the UK economy bit by bit and you strengthen a communist regime.

Not nececeraly, the richer the workers get, the more likely they are to say f*** you to Beijing.

And on an even more basic level, why should I care whether my money is suppourting a factory worker in Halifax or Han Chinese? They're both people, both with an equal right to make a living. Or should they all go back to growing rice?

Infact by your arguments, I'm being far more alturistic sending my money abroad, as there's no indirect kickbakc for me then.

dogmatix - I agree with your point. But as you can see, most people only care about the price and don't give a toss.

So... It's not enough that I pay 22% or 40% of my wages in tax. I pay national insurance. I pay 70p on the £ in tax on my patrol. I pay 20% vat. I pay car tax. The list goes on.

But, by saving myself a few hundred quid by buying direct from China, i'm bringing down the UK economy?

Expletive off.

the richer the workers get

It's not the workers who are getting richer though is it?

So... It's not enough that I pay 22% or 40% of my wages in tax. I pay national insurance. I pay 70p on the £ in tax on my patrol. I pay 20% vat. I pay car tax. The list goes on.

Think yourself lucky you don't work in a Chinese factory. Ever been to China and seen how the ordinary workers actually live? The big cities like Shanghai feel very western until you venture out of the CBD and then it quickly turns third worldy.

Its a illogical argument, the reverse of your fears will happen if we buy direct. By buying direct, we raise living standards and hence wages in chaina, and all these jobs will come back here, where the difference in price will just be the shipping.

These protectionist fears are perpetuated by the middle men because it is better for them to keep living standards and hence wages cheap in China, so they can carry on exploiting their willingness to work for naff all, and our willingness to pay through the nose.

It's not the workers who are getting richer though is it?

The money all has to go somewhere. If I buy something 'made in britain', odds are it's made by someone on near minimum wage whilst the factory owner drives a range rover.

The big cities like [s]Shanghai[/s]Middlesbrough[s] feel very western until you venture out of the CBD and then it quickly turns third worldy.

FTFY

Yay! Smash the commie state by buying up cheap Chinese carbon! Do your bit for the repressed worker! 🙂

Yay! Smash the commie state by buying up cheap Chinese carbon! Do your bit for the repressed worker!

Exactly!

These protectionist fears are perpetuated by the middle men because it is better for them to keep living standards and hence wages cheap in China, so they can carry on exploiting their willingness to work for naff all, and our willingness to pay through the nose.

This, and the far eastern workers earn more when they sell direct than when Primark/Specialized etc negotiate contracts demanding XX units per hour for 13 pence. For the big companies it is all about minimizing cost to maximize profit.

I wonder dogmatix are you pushing this adgenda to satisfy your own prejudice. I asked on the other thread, are you a UKIPer?

In the grand csheme of things relating to the western economies I imagine the few folks who frequent this forum & are buying direct from China must account for a minute percentage of GDP/ tax revenue.

Get a grip

Hmm you know Alibaba [s]is in the midst of[/s] has completed the largest IPO ever.

This, and the far eastern workers earn more when they sell direct than when Primark/Specialized etc negotiate contracts demanding XX units per hour for 13 pence. For the big companies it is all about minimizing cost to maximize profit.

When did this utopian version of China become a reality? A better price for the company will not equal a better wage for the shop floor worker. It'll just mean a better margin for the owner. I doubt that the freedom of information in China extends to a factory worker knowing the markup on the widgets that they are turning out.

well it is a fact that wages are rising in china, and it appears to be driven by dealing with the west.

[url= http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.com/2013/06/china-foreign-teachers-suggested-hourly.html ]click[/url]

I think you put too much stock in democracy, working conditions aren't hugely effected by the right to vote (for more than one party) [Bangladesh and India].

As for eroding the British economy, yes you're correct, the over inflated cost of living in the UK is largely supported by over paid jobs (mine included) based in the UK with a manufacture base overseas. Buying direct does cut out the UK arm of the profit, do I feel any moral obligation to help my next door neighbour afford a big TV (made by a man in ???? that considers running water and electricity to be luxury items) no, no I don't. Frankly of we weren't all so concerned with keeping our place at the top of the pile maybe we'd have done a bit more to fix the bottom.

Will I be better off if my job moves to China? No. Do I think for a second that, once my job can be consistently outsourced to China with no operational impact that the keep my job in the UK? No not a chance. Not of course unless the UK economy has changed to allow me to do my job at a competitive cost.

Frankly I couldn't eat for a day on what they earn in a month, the greatest chance of long term job security in the West lies in being able to compete and largely that requires or economy to collapse and rebuild. The are very, very few jobs which require to be based here, most are here only for ease. Buying local (designed? Plenty of designers in China) amounts to less now than 40 years ago and in 40 years from now, without something to redress the balance, will amount to little more than where their Chosen decided to live to pay least tax.

dbcooper... The increase in prosperity in china will only increase the strength of the political system. Its naive to think the workers will rise up. As Russias economy has grown it has been easier for putin to drage russia back to repression. As for reds under the bed its the wrong example. That describes communists infiltrating western societies. The facts on the ground are the communist regime is china is growing stronger and more powerful, not weaker. To think this is some west vs east ideology that has no relevence today shows a very short sighted view of history. Its an incovenient truth, but a truth. I no someone who has worked in china for 2 years. I understand a little, only a little of their views of the west. They are not generally friendly. To think they are all growing up waiting to become western is a falicy. Have you seen protest in china when japan is seen to do something wrong? It puts xenophobia in this country in to perspective.

So my points are two fold.

1) Buying british or western products (not manufacturing) may well support head of CRC in his BMW (sorry head of CRC) but it will also support his employees and the larger UK economy as a whole. So it supports your family and friends in the long run.

2)It supports a political system, though not perfect, that is democratic.

lastly, to think that chinese people can't support theyre own economy by buying their own products is frankly patronising. They can buy there own products, they can raise their own living standards. The west movement of manufacturing to china has already done this. It is a fake argument to use this as a reason to buy chinese products direct.

If i cant buy it new i buy second hand (money in to UK economy direclty). There is nothing wrong with waiting for things. It an old fashioned concept, but one the chinese would very much approve of, and view the west as foolish for not having.

Yawn.

We'll always need posties 😀

dangeourbrain do you think China will let us rebuild when we collapse. Do you think their business model will be as liberal as ours has? They don't believe in liberal economics or globalisation. I want to state this really isn't a rant about the chinese people as a race. This is about the chinese political and cultural system created by the communist system, decade upon decade. Do you know children in class rooms can be used to report on other children. This isn't hear say.

Doggy, which would be better for the Chinese peeps

a) Let them interact and make and sell stuff all over the world through internets and gain western-ness.

b) Shut them off and leave them to themselves

My point also is none of this is set in stone, the future isnt written. I am saying my personal response is to do what I can to support uk people or products by either buying new or second hand. I think there is nothing wrong with thinking before you buy. I am just questioning what seems to be becoming the status quo. I am by no means perfect, but I do the best I can. Again, my values dont need to be the same as yours, but if it has made anyone think about it then I think thats cool... Whatever you do i hope you enjoy the your ride... 😉

Again, my values dont need to be the same as yours

Thank God, I'm glad you're giving me permission to buy what I want!

richard they are very far from being shut off and are large enough to create their own internal economy, right now they are net exporters, so they take from global trade not add to it. The west really is on the wrong end of this stick. I am just talking about holding back the flood. Keeping something for ourselves so we can be competitive in the future. you dont have to worry about china not rising even if you took my view. That horse has long bolted. Staying competitive is still possible. But only if we get what is going on.

They really wont gain westerness, they have a restricted internet, if you think our media is biased and controlled, well... I promise you this will not happen they will not become western by osmosis...

The state is embedded everywhere. You really can't imagine. This isnt NSA level snooping (they have that twenty fold) this is people on the street. If you say something wrong on social meida over there you will be picked out. This thread I am writing wouldnt exist.

to think that chinese people can't support [b]theyre[/b] own economy by buying [b]their[/b] own products is frankly patronising. They can buy [b]there[/b] own products,

You're playing grammar nazi bingo and I claim my five pounds.

hands up... writing too fast...

If I buy a Chinese designed carbon bar that's manufactured in China direct from China I am hastening the downfall of the Western economy and propping up a repressive Communist regime with their cunning plan of taking over the world.
So if I buy an American designed carbon bar manufatured in China am I perpetuating Guantanamo Bay,the trade embargo on Cuba ,drone strikes on ****stani civilians and the economic and military support of Israel so it can oppress the Palestinians etc etc
Phew and I thought the only thing I had to concern myself about was is 780mm too wide?

They really wont gain westerness, they have a restricted internet, if you think our media is biased and controlled, well... I promise you this will not happen they will not become western by osmosis...

I'd like a ten page essay on my desk(top) by Monday morning, please, outlining precisely why 'western-ness' is something that people living elsewhere should strive after.

I bought my time trial carbon wheel direct from China .Nice easy transaction and it came in about 3 weeks .All duty was paid -simples

Dogmatix

Do you persoanlly never buy made in China goods. Or do you just not buy them direct from China?

If he west imported nothing from China would the average chines person be better or worse off?

njee really not telling anyone what to do... just putting across a view.

warpcow... it was never me that said they should gain westerness... I was replying to someone else. But I'll give my take on it anyway, I'm not a great fan of laissez faire capitalism as part of western culture, but enlightenemt, cultural liberalism, democracy, human rights, freedom of speech. Whilst none of these are exclusive to western culture and by no means whole heartedly adhered to by western culture. They have been championed by it and developed by it over generations via philosophy and politics. If top trumps were the game i'd say that was pretty good. Your turn, lets hear your take on Communist Chinas gifts to the world?

ampthill... I did once... and i regret it... i questioned it at the time, I did it, and now i think i shouldnt have. It was a £50 light 4 or 5 years ago. As I have said I am not perfect. I genuinely think it was wrong for me ( a personal judgment on myself ) to do it.

As i've said i am not against our current model of production, that means manufacturing in china. I have nothing against the chinese people (lots against the state) the chinese people will really not suffer if we are selective in the type of goods we buy. Our manufacturing in their country has secured a strong internal economy. I think I have been clear this isn't about boycotting, its about making choices. Thinking what products support the kind of economy we have constructed. Perosnally I think MTB products is one such product niche.

I am not painting myself as whiter than white. I am saying 'You know what. I think this is wrong. I have had a think about it and I think it is wrong', my choice for me, my opinion.

I'm clearly in the minority, I think moshimonster is the only one that agrees.

For me thats a shame.

(dbcooper the UKIP thing? really? thats really cheap, does that serve anyone? Does being against a Communist regime make me UKIP? If it were India we were talking about I really would have a slightly different view on it, my argument would be much harder to make. They have a democratic culture. Christ UKIP? really? )

This, and the far eastern workers earn more when they sell direct than when Primark/Specialized etc negotiate contracts demanding XX units per hour for 13 pence. For the big companies it is all about minimizing cost to maximize profit.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

The same as it is for the Chinese factory owners, or are they somehow less profit driven than their western counterparts?

[img] [/img]

Why "Communist Chinas gifts"? China existed long before communism, just as most of the Western values you mention were at their height about 400yrs ago. China had an enlightenment too, and much of it looks like exactly what you just wrote (freedom of expression, basic human rights, a democratic society, etc). Eastern philosophy (not the bastardised spiritual stuff common in the west) is just as rich as the Western tradition, and possibly more diverse, and it forms the foundation of their society in precisely the way you say it does ours. Sorry I missed that it was Richard who introduced the idea, but your answer didn't do anything other than affirm that western-ness is something they should want.

parkesie

nice work 🙂

Who cares? What is wrong is to try to impose your western values on another culture.
Ever noticed that those with the supposed high moral standards are the first to do just the opposite? 😆

lets hear your take on Communist Chinas gifts to the world?

By western-ness I meant freedom of thought and speech and the right to elect your leaders.

warpcow... thats a strawman argument. China of the past isn't china of the present. Didn't you get the whole revolution, long march, little red book thing? But still, that china I am talking about is of the past too. The new china is even worse with a communist power structure and cultural control over the individual, with the economic unfairness of unfettered capitalism. Communism takes the day zero method of cultural change. Everything before it was expunged and made illegal. Also, democracy was introduced in to china by european philosophy. But look I am not going to get ushered in to your cul de sac. China historically has given alot to the world. We are not discussing the past we are talking about very probable future trajectories. The ideas now espoused by the west, such as freedom of speach and democracy are seen by the chinese communist party as a weekness in western society. They have too large and too fragmented a nation state to allow anything like the western model to exist. I had a friend who often visited tibet. The oppression he saw there, both overt and covert, was unimaginable. He told me about the railroad they built in order to bring more chinese Han in to out compete the tibetans in terms of population. Sounds like old colonial Britain. An appauling part of our history, but that is happening today, in China.

"Some kind of cultural genocide is taking place," the Dalai Lama said earlier this month. "In general, a railway link is very useful in order to develop, but not when politically motivated to bring about demographic change."

Anyway as I said, i don't want to impose western ideology on to them. That was someone elses point. I just don't want us to loose ALL of our power and product development to them, and to clarify, when i say them, I mean the chinese communist party.

Aside from the supporting communism thing...

I think the point is brands in the UK/USA whatever spend money, time and expertise designing testing and creating new innovative products. Then find a manufacturer in China to make it in bulk.

If said Chinese factory then just rip the designs off and sell them direct to punters then the companies who spent all the time and effort designing these new things go bust and there are no companies left to design new products to be ripped off by China and all the innovation stops.

I get that China is bad

I'm just less sure that putting an online retailer between me China helps much. Particular as for some products the UK end is just warehousing and handling

Surely we could apply the same rant to any one who buys bike parts online rather popping to the LBS

Surely we should rage against machine built wheels and all insist on j spokes assembled in the UK

Or should we rant at anyone who doesn't buy a made UK frame

nick1962 yes your right, along with the help of western liberal economics they were able to lift that many people out of poverty. That was 40 or so years after 36 million* (THIRTY SIX MILLION) of their OWN people starved to death at the hands of the communist regime. Over half of the entire UK population starved to death. (there are no exact figures)that beats pretty much any global atrocity... well there was stalins communist russia, that was close. both of these, mind, to their own populations. Thats how strong their ideology is and how strongly it has been enforced.

[s]oh to 'bring some figures in', slight[/s] exageration on foreign aid figures closer to $7.1 billion ([s]itsy titsy tiny bit less than the hundreds of billwions you mentioned[/s]) development assistance. that makes it the sixth largest in the world behind UK, US, Germany, France and Japan, yet it has the second largest economy in the world.

[s]Still does foreign aid legitimise a Communist regime? oh you already stated it doesnt? So why mention the figures? I am clear about why I have added my (correct) figures. I think it is a questionable regime. I'm out in the open.[/s]

hahah im going to edit some bits out... i was being over sarcatsic/catty for a laugh...

ahhhh look i know its a bit heavy on the point.... hahaha, gone so overboard, ive made it to land already, but its just something I have on my mind... and I care about the people, kids, families, etc in this country... I think we do have some good ideologies (present) to defend too... (yes our past was pretty poor)(plus i want the kids in china to be happy too, but they have enough industry now and in to the future for that)

And personally i really do think it does and can make a difference. There are battles worth the fight and some not worth it. I think this is a battle that is worth the fight.

I buy bike bits from all over the place.

I buy USA manufactured items in the USA. I buy German manufactured items in the USA. I buy German manufactured items from a German store and get them sent to the UK. I buy German manufatuered items from a Northern Irish store and get them sent to the UK. I buy Japanese designed, Taiwanese built parts from England. I buy UK designed, Swiss improved, Taiwanese manufactured items from France...

I could go on.

And yes, I buy Chinese designed, Chinese made items from China.

I don't agree with many of the Chinese governments policies, and certainly not with a lot of their past actions. But neither with France, or the USA, or anywhere else for that matter, and especially neither with the UK.

If I was to worry about the politics of the government of the country where I bought goods, I wouldn't buy anything.

As a matter of interest dogmatix - where were your TV's made? Your phone? Your computer? Your camera?

Having now reached three pages of response I guess the thing to do is admit this isn't the place.

I disagree with you, I think that your favour for our own systems is the effect of being born and educated in them and is largely distorted by the fact that you're not one of the lowest of our society - I'm not sure you'd find many long term homeless folks espousing the virtues of western society.