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Just under a year ago, I bought an Endura MTR waterproof jacket as a lightweight, packable, easy to carry around with me coat. Its been used in the wet maybe 10 – a dozen times, a good chunk more as an extra windproof layer (early morning commutes to the station etc). It’s got muddy a few times and after hosing the worst off, I’ve put it through the washing machine on a rinse cycle/no detergent with other similarly claggy kit.
The other week I had a wet commute of an hour. Not super-power-shower wet, but definitely manky. By the end of it I had wet arms and shoulders – simply the material letting through, not seams and not where my bag rubs.
I’m quite disappointed to be honest. A waterproof that is only waterproof for less than an hour isn’t a waterproof, and one that lasts less than a year of light use is to my mind in the “not fit for purpose” categories. By my standards, its been looked after – kept clean, and stored when not in use rolled up in a little bag I bought for it.
I’ve not tried reproofing it yet, but I have tried reproofing other stuff many times and it lasts a use or 2 before I end up getting wet again. They bead beautifully for a bit with the refreshed DWR, then its back to wetting out.
What’s really bugging me is that all my other jackets (with the notable exception of my venerable heavyweight 3 layer Goretex Mountain Equipment walking coat) all are in a similar state. Madison Addict coat, bought as a heavy duty “its utterly disgusting, but I’m going out anyway” coat lasts about an hour before it wets out. Endura Stealth – similar (although I have had this 8 years now). They’ve all gone on the upper face of the arms and shoulders and into the chest – the bits that get the wind. The areas where my rucksac/courier bag rub, remain dry much longer.
I’m a skinny git, so if I get wet, I get cold. Its as simple as that. Windchill is a real issue for me. In particular the Madison jacket has nearly landed me in trouble a couple of times when I’ve ended up in some remote locations (in "summer"!), soaked to the skin, despite being fully shelled up, and halfway to hypothermic. (its great having extra layers with you, but by the time you’ve taken your shell off, put the extra layer on and got the shell back on again, its soaked and a fairly pointless exercise with a jacket that just lets more water through – its just more thermal mass robbing heat out of my body). These days I just don’t trust it, which gives me a different problem of not wanting to risk wet weather.
I’m hoping to do (CV19 allowing!) some multiday stuff this summer and for me to function safely I need to stay dry if it chucks it down. A coat that only keeps me dry for an hour when I’m going to be riding for 12hrs plus, then bivvying is sod all use. I bought the MTR to cover this option, as the Madison is WAY to bulky to be packable.
So what’s the solution? Is there such thing as waterproof waterproofs? And that last a reasonable time in reasonable use? If I’m spending £100+ on a jacket, I’d like to expect a bare minimum of 5 years (waterproof) use out of it, ideally 10 (my ME goretex^^ is nearer 20). They’re all great when new, for the first half dozen wears. After that…. Likewise, breathable is great when you’re dry and generating heat. Once I’m wet, though, the furnace just shuts down.
outdry by Columbia.
Seems to be holding up for me despite not being true three layer and feeling like a crisp packet.
They do more heavy duty ones .the lack of apparent breathability hasnt been an issue for me even when running.
Got one of those madison jackets - dont rate it at all . feels more like a tracksuit top than a waterproof.
i find most waterproofs are pretty pants
sounds like you need a 'boil the bag' one for those hypothermic moments. and a normal one for the rest. or a boil one with pit zips etc to ventilate the body a bit.
I`m lucky and have to ride up a massive hill to get home which warms me up no end.
I don't think it's the jacket wetting out from the outside; it's condensation from you.
Unfortunately as far as jackets go, you simply cannae change the laws of physics; warm moist air hitting any form of barrier that is cool will result in condensation and the much vaunted 'breathability' of any membrane gets overwhelmed really quickly.
I use a pertex wind shirt; walking uphill with a base layer or a bs and fleece will make the inner layer wet at the summit; that's pertex which is massively more breathable than any 'waterproof'. It dries off as my level of exertion slows.
In the old days of 'boil in the bag' cycling jackets I used to avoid wearing mine as much as possible; getting wet is ok as long as you're not cold, so more layers and put up with dampness.
Shell jackets are a last resort IMHO.
My walking and cycling jackets (Berghaus and Adidas) are both gore-tex and have never let water in, I've cycled in some pretty torrential rain and had every other part of me soaked but kept a dry upper
Aye, riding locally where I can chop and change the route easily or going for a dick around in the woods where you can nip back to the car easy enough to change is obviously fine, but its the moments when you're the wrong side of a pass, the weather has come in and you have 2 or 3 hrs (or more) to the finish.
Both the Madison and the Endura Stealth are boil in the bag when its dry/itermittent wet. They both have vents which help, but doesn't entirely reduce the issue (and are largely just draughty rather than drying). Part of the problem seems to be that I have a binary heating system - a bit too hot, or frozen. There's not really a "just right" setting.
It also p*sses me off no end to spend good money (multiple times) on high-end kit only to find it doesn't work!
You won’t like the price tag, but my arcteryx alpha fl hasn’t let me down.
3L goretex pro, weighs 350g, packs down to the size of a water bottle. Awesome jacket.
Im two years into loads of miles hardcore dog ownership (Karelian Bear Dog) and spending a lot more time in the hills/mountains.
I've been round the houses with waterproof jackets - they all work fine when the DWR coating is in place but as soon as that stops then the jacket wets out from condensation. I also dont like pouring (from an ecological point) TX wash down the drain when reproofing jackets.
I've ended up with a polycotton military style smock
https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-windproof-smock/34637
that i've waxed to give a little rain protection - if the rain is in for the day or turns heavy then i throw a snugpack poncho over the top which also covers my rucksack. This is my best set up so far but isnt really suitable for cycling!
It sounds like you need a Buffalo shirt plus a very lightweight emergency waterproof.
I don’t think it’s the jacket wetting out from the outside; it’s condensation from you.
Some of the time, maybe. The issue last week with the MTR jacket was definitely water coming in - the sleeves of my jersey (under the jacket) were wet on the outside, my helly underneath was dry. Plus we're talking front face of the arms here - not pits, or torso or back underneath the bag, which is where I start sweating first.
Or a mesh base layer and hydrophobic mid layer.
Almost everyone approaches outdoor gear the wrong way around, because they work from the outside in. You need a base layer which keeps your skin as dry as possible, an insulating layer which keeps you warm when wet and dries fast, and an outer layer to keep the wind off and most of the rain out. Buffalo does this in one garment with pile and pertex (or similar).
I run too warm to use that down south so for me it’s Helly Hansens or Brynje mesh, a fleece or micro fleece and then a windproof, with the top two layers treated with TX Direct, plus an emergency waterproof.
I have had this with loads of jackets. Columbia outdry does seem to be genuinely waterproof though, although the cut of mine is not perfect and the handle of the fabric isn't great. Nonetheless, it's what I take on multiday trips now if I think it will be wet.
Buffalo stuff is great but just too hot outside of full winter. I've not tried the lighterweight version though ('techlite' maybe?).
PX Magma convertible jacket is £28 using promo code, such a bargain at that price!
Every month there's a thread like this.
For these membranes to work, moisture has to condense on the inside of the shell and be drawn through. If it's saturated on the outside, it cannot be drawn through, so it gets wet on the inside. Because of the saturated water on the outside, the wet bit on the inside gets cold. So you're cold and wet even though the fabric has not actually leaked. This is almost certainly what you are experiencing rather than leaking, but it's academic really because the end result is the same.
Reproofing stops this happening because the outside does not get saturated, but as you have discovered reproofing never really works that well long term and it's a constant battle.
The only thing that can help is wearing more layers underneath which insulates you from the cold and damp, and/or not wearing a back pack. Another option is to go out in heavy rain without a waterproof and you will see that rain soaks through non-waterproof fabrics much more quickly than the condensation so you're still better off with a waterproof even though it's not perfect. IF it's raining really hard.
the sleeves of my jersey (under the jacket) were wet on the outside, my helly underneath was dry
It's not rain coming in from the outside, it's condensation working its way back from the *inside* of the outer layer. End result is the same, cause is different.
Plus we’re talking front face of the arms here – not pits, or torso or back underneath the bag, which is where I start sweating first.
Yes, because those are the bits that saturate first cos they get the hardest rain - and that's where the condensation collects. It's not sweaty in your pits etc because that's where the jacket is working.
If you want to know if it's waterproof, stretch it out over the bath and pour water on it. It'll probably hold.
I also dont like pouring (from an ecological point) TX wash down the drain when reproofing jackets.
Use the spray, it's much better. After the wash-in then the inside of the jacket gets proofed and the sweat won't soak through to the outside for a while anyway so it'll be much sweatier.
The jackets DO work, they just don't work as well as you've been led to believe, in all situations.
Both me and my missus have had new breathable waterproofs soak thru on occasions. Certainly water coming thru the material not condensation or pinholes
My thoughts are this happens when you get cold - you need a heat gradient / enough heat inside the jacket to push the water vapour out. Once you lose this ie when you get cold gradually water soaks thru the material by capillary action or similar
The answer is builders oilskins that are actually properly waterproof or keep over warm inside the waterproofs which then provides the needed vapour pressure ( or whatever the technical term is) to keep the movement of water outwards not inwards
Mlgrips - the water that leaves the inside of the jacket is in vapour not liquid. thats the whole point - liquid water cannot go thru the membrane but vapour can.
My MTR emergency shell has kept me dry but I've probably worn it less than you have yours.
I tend not to trust bike specific waterproofs to be breathable enough anyway, but that one was really cheap.
At the other end of the scale my rapha jacket has been very waterproof and breathable. But I got it half price in the sales of course. They are not cheap at RRP.
Mlgrips – the water that leaves the inside of the jacket is in vapour not liquid. thats the whole point – liquid water cannot go thru the membrane but vapour can.
No molgrips is right, the vapour condenses in the inside and is drawn through - certainly for goretex anyway - event is a little different. These jackets don't really work the way the marketing bull makes you think they do.
only thing ive found that works is event or goretex.
nothing else works. but its cheaper so i buy it. im not wrecking a 500 quid jacket on my mtb
"For these membranes to work, moisture has to condense on the inside of the shell and be drawn through."
This is totally incorrect. For membranes and coatings to let water through it has to pass through in vapour form - they are impermeable to liquid water, that's why they're waterproof.
"If it’s saturated on the outside, it cannot be drawn through, so it gets wet on the inside."
If it's saturated on the outside then two things happen - the vapour transmission rate drops massively and the coldness causes internal condensation, and as previously stated liquid water cannot pass through membranes or coatings.
The only waterproofs that keep moving water outwards in these scenarios are Nikwax Analogy - but they're not totally waterproof and are occasionally overwhelmed by water trying to come in and need to be kept fairly clean - so not suitable for how I mountain bike. I'm basically doing a modular Nikwax Analogy approach plus a basic coated waterproof for the rare times the Analogy waterproofing is overwhelmed.
This is totally incorrect. For membranes and coatings to let water through it has to pass through in vapour form – they are impermeable to liquid water, that’s why they’re waterproof.
It depends on the fabric. There are a few materials that use the hydrophilic properties of PU to draw liquid through, but most high-end modern waterproof fabrics are air permeable, so will allow vapour through. Gore changed the way it constructed its fabrics a while back, so it's no longer limited by having a PU smear on the inside of the membrane.
Gore-Tex ShakeDry is arguably the best cycling=specific waterproof fabric out there because it's both decently breathable and doesn't have an outer face fabric to wet out, so performance stays consistent over long periods of time. Downsides are that it's not super robust and it's stupidly expensive. The Columbia OutDry kit does a similar gig in theory, but is a fair bit less breathable, a lot heavier and tends to have quite a basic design ime.
Anyway...
It's condensation.
the sleeves of my jersey (under the jacket) were wet on the outside, my helly underneath was dry. Plus we’re talking front face of the arms here – not pits, or torso or back underneath the bag, which is where I start sweating first.
You're conflating sweat areas with condensation areas. Both get wet, one from heat, one from cold. They can't be in the same place by definition. Lots of cold water on the face fabric equals condensation at that point on the inside because that's where it's coldest, and also usually heaviest and pressed closest to the skin. You don't get condensation where the steam rises from your cooking pan, it forms on the cold window. If the face fabric is wetted out then it can't breath at all anymore and by definition of having a layer of water is the coldest.
Your Helly is specifically designed to export moisture away from your skin no surprise it seemed dryish, since the condensation doesn't form there.
Most of these jackets are functioning as planned, it just the limitations are not near the marketing. It perfectly easy to push beyond what they can deal with, and in bad conditions it's really difficult to tell what going on.
Pit zips.
It's all about the pit zips.
Science officer - in my case there is no doubt at all it was water soaking thru the fabric. It didn't start to happen significantly until the 8th hour of rain but the next 4 hours we were soaked. It was not condensation.
The other, really basic thing, that doesn't always get mentioned, is that waterproof jackets, particularly bike jackets, allow water to enter in the place that your head exits. If it's really wet, it tends to run down your neck and wick from there over the front of your chest in particular. A buff around the neck helps, but in time water will get in regardless.
Hooded outdoor jackets are better - the hood limits the opening - but the same thing happens in time.
i think its reasonable expectation of a 100 quid jacket to finally give up in driving rain on the tops. Less so for a 500 quid one.
I bet given the two you would be dryer in the expensive fabric.
never expect a waterproof to be waterproof and you wont be disappointed.
it just needs to be you comfortable and safe. If it does that you are winning
I've got a pile of GTX stuff and it's pretty variable, mostly depending on how long it's been since they were last proofed.
I love my GTX boots but until someone works out how to get rid of the gaping hole in the top, they'll always eventually fill with water if the weather is truly grim, especially with an MTB, especially especially if rivers are involved! Spatz look good for the road, but so far I've not needed them myself.
For layers, the only two items that are truly, dependably waterproof are my Berghaus GTX Pro shell and a pair of stupidly expensive Sherpa eVent overtrousers. Between the two of these, I've remained more or less dry despite the worst that a very wet CX season could throw at this supporting parent. It must be said that I wear neither on the bike and tend to stick to thinner, less completely waterproof kit on the top, and either waterproof-ish shorts (MTB) or bib tights (road) on the bottom and if I'm getting cold, it's just a signal that I'm not riding quickly enough!
This is totally incorrect. For membranes and coatings to let water through it has to pass through in vapour form – they are impermeable to liquid water, that’s why they’re waterproof.
Its not - traditionally gortex does work like that - vapour going through a semi permeable membrane -and as a result the membrane was quite breathable - unfortunately it got clogged with oils from the skin and very rapidly stopped working - to combat this a light pu membrane is added to the ptfe - this slows down the breath ability because the moisture vapour has to condense on the inside and draw through and then re evapourate. Event has this membrane applied at microscopic scale - which impairs the breathability less.
What crikey said. Take another layer.
This is totally incorrect. For membranes and coatings to let water through it has to pass through in vapour form – they are impermeable to liquid water, that’s why they’re waterproof.
To my knowledge only eVent is microporous like this, and I think Endura PTFE but they stopped doing that. You can tell, because the wind blows through an eVent jacket slightly, but it's more noticeable on the bike. But this is a good thing as long as you cater for it in your other layers - really good breathability. Also less waterproofness ultimately: the water is normally kept out by the surface tension of droplets but it can be squashed through for example by sitting on wet ground.
I did not know Gore-Tex had changed to microporous membranes, I'll have to have a look at that. Which fabrics are like that?
Two years on an Outdry jacket here - cheap, durable, breathable enough, waterproof enough; good pitzips, poor hood design if you want to use it for hill walking too (but other models may be better). Having owned expensive jackets over the past 30+ years, I wouldn't bother now.
JonEdwards
I’ve ended up in some remote locations (in “summer”!), soaked to the skin, despite being fully shelled up, and halfway to hypothermic. (its great having extra layers with you, but by the time you’ve taken your shell off, put the extra layer on and got the shell back on again, its soaked and a fairly pointless exercise with a jacket that just lets more water through – its just more thermal mass robbing heat out of my body).
A cycling cape solves most of those problems, but they're pointless if you do not have mudguards.
It's hard to find a good one these days though.
Another buffallo shirt fan here too, and you should see mine 😀 Bright yellow with purple sleeves and hood. Bright red propile lining. Quite hideous to look at but very versatile and easy to ventilate.
to combat this a light pu membrane is added to the ptfe – this slows down the breath ability because the moisture vapour has to condense on the inside and draw through and then re evapourate
Except they changed the way they manufactured the fabric to improve breathability, starting with Active Shell onwards. Pro doesn't use the PU layer afaik, and the latest Pro is pretty breathable, though it's quite noisy in use, which may or may not annoy you. I have a vague memory that the PU component of Active is effectively a sort of partial layer, but I may be wrong. It's a shame that Pro's quite so noisy and expensive, I think 7mesh use it for one of their jackets, not sure anyone else does though. Mostly it's specced for full-on mountaineering jackets:
This is quite good if you want to get into construction details:
https://www.facewest.co.uk/Gore-Tex-Fabrics-Explained.html