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[quote=legend ] kimbers - Member
Bob that debate is for the Scotland Indy thread
Let "the 45" have their victory
Except I was one of the 55...
BoardinBob - MemberTweedlove actually blew everyone else away last year
How were the queues at the 400+ rider races?
EDIT:
BoardinBob - Member
Except I was one of the 55...
So you're one of [i]THEM[/i]?!? 😉
Each series nominates one event from theirsThose events then count towards an overall "national/British" title
Its a good idea and already in use, the British fellrunning championships are done that way.
The problem is Bob, you need to get people to agree/talk/communicate. In cycling that seems alien at times.
You could do with maybe a big organisation to help organise and also communicate/agree/talk - maybe someone like British/Scottish Cycling. Except they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, have no interest in MTB other than XC and making up more courses for coaches to sit through...
On a related note - our club is seeing real issues with how many road and cx events there are. Every weekend is a clash of events. Perhaps it is not just MTB?
legend - MemberHow were the queues at the 400+ rider races?
Of the stages I ran, one had a big ol queue for a good chunk of the day and was pretty grim (final stage on a wet day, I think people were boosting around the last transition to get home which stacked it up heavily), the others never very big except when there was a red flag or other course hold. Don't know if it was like that all round the hill but from what I saw it was fairly average. As a rider I never really queued at all but you only see your own surrounds.
The big factor isn't so much racer numbers as how fast they go out really- 200 riders in half the time has pretty similiar stresses to 400 in twice the time, the worst queues I've experienced were all either in smaller races, or at the start of races without set start times.
You could do with maybe a big organisation to help organise and also communicate/agree/talk - maybe someone like British/Scottish Cycling. Except they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, have no interest in MTB other than XC and making up more courses for coaches to sit through...
I think this is very true
from the 2nd and 3rd hand info ive got about race organisers it seems theres a lot more opportunity for cooperation than has been seen up to now
Strong input from BC couldve changed that
What's in it for BC? Not a lot I'd suggest.
This is where HSBC should force BC's hand.
If Enduro is the fast growing bit of mtb and that's where product sale is coming from, the opportunity for HSBC to clean up on finance on bikes is good. Force BC to back enduro as part of the 8 year deal, build an aggressive retail finance deal to steal market share from black horse finance. Rider numbers go up, series grows, bikes sell well, LBS' make cash, HSBC clean up. Everyone wins.
dragon - Member
What's in it for BC?
the warm glow of satisfaction that youd actually done your job and represented the interest of british cyclists?
I reckon the importance of having BC on board is shown here. They have the logistical and communication reach to deliver National events.
If you want BC involved then you'll have to play by their rules and any thought of it being an organised version of a mates race will be well gone. Also BC like every organisation is cash and resource constrained, they don't do stuff just for a warm fuzzy glow.
Why would HSBC care about around 400 riders (that's a good event), when they'll get far more coverage elsewhere. Plus their focus seems more around families and encouraging cycling use as transport.
After talks with Simon’s timing guy and man behind Mini Enduro, 4X Pro Tour and Mini Downhill, Chris Roberts, we have some good news when it comes to the running of what was to be the Dyfi BES round. Chris and Charlie Williams (the man behind Welsh Gravity Enduro) are still going to run the Dyfi round on the same date as the planned BES; this will be the Welsh EWS feeder round on May 20/21.
[url= http://enduro-mtb.com/en/british-enduro-series-cancelled-2017/ ]Enduro Magazine[/url]
We need a national series
I don't disagree with this, but it seems we either don't [i]want[/i] one - or that nobody's got it quite right yet.
Perhaps BC involvement could have helped, but perhaps not since the EWS is separate from the UCI.
If I were running a UK national series I'd want it to have official feeder status for the EWS - to formalise the progression that we think a national series is needed for.
I'd even suggest that the EWS could drive that idea, the payoff for them being that it could strengthen the roots of the discipline and bolster the various national enduro racing scenes.
I think one of the key problems is the number of organisers for Enduro who are willing to put on and organise events.
Here's how we work out our National League at BMBO (I'm a committee member and we're not supported by BC).
Best 10 event scores will count to the league final position.
No more than 6 event scores can count from a single region/organiser/club.
Class winners will need to have ridden in at least 7 events to qualify for prizes. This same rule applies to lower placings that might receive awards in the classes with the largest numbers of qualifying riders.
League Points and how they are Calculated
The overall winner at each event will score 100 points. All other finishers who have registered their BMBO number on their entry will receive a pro rata percentage of the winners score. e.g.:- Winner scores 400 points = 100 points, so a competitor scoring 300 points will score 75 League points.
All amendments to League points must be notified to the statistician within 3 weeks of the League first being circulated to members.
Tie break
In the event of a tie, the following will be used, in order of preference, to determine the winner:
1. Where the competitors have competed against each other in one or more events, then the better mean of such scores only will be used.
2. The greater number of class wins.
3. The next best discarded score(s) will be added.
In addition to the National League there are several Regional Leagues (mini leagues) administered by BMBO clubs in the region. These are listed on the Event Calendar page of this website.
chakaping - MemberI don't disagree with this, but it seems we either don't want one - or that nobody's got it quite right yet.
2013, 2014, it seemed pretty damn good to me. Great racing, excellent turnouts (mostly sold out I think? Not looking it up!), good venues etc. Warning signs were there too mind but it didn't have to go that way.
2013, 2014, it seemed pretty damn good to me. Great racing, excellent turnouts
As someone pointed out before me, there was very little competition then. It was UKGE or nowt if you lived in most parts of the UK.
As someone pointed out before me, there was very little competition then. It was UKGE or nowt if you lived in most parts of the UK.
fuzzy glow of nostalgia aside the races were still technically and physically as good as it gets, maybe tweedlove international aside
helmets, elitism, cost, insurance, time- they were becoming 3 day races, and competition were all factors
fuzzy glow of nostalgia aside the races were still technically and physically as good as it gets
Yep, I [u]really[/u] enjoyed Eastridge and Inners in 2013 (IIRC).
I see Tracy Moseley's been tweeting for BC to step up and support enduro today.
Do re-tweet her if you agree BTW...
https://twitter.com/tracy_moseley/status/817105922841604099
orena45 - Member
Disappointed by the news also. Had signed up to Rnd 1 and had full intention of doing the full series, just couldn't afford to drop cash on it all up front, so was going to sign up to a race each pay day.Was going to be a hell of a lot of travelling for me from the southwest but was up for it. Southern Enduro Series is the closest now but it's still a lot of travelling for only a one-day race. From my perspective, a south Wales/Southwest series is needed...maybe Charlie Williams and the Cornish Trail Pixies can team up next year!
Don't for get the Southern Enduro Champs is in the south west.
http://southernenduro.co.uk/event/southern-enduro-champs-minehead-exmoor/
This is where HSBC should force BC's hand.If Enduro is the fast growing bit of mtb and that's where product sale is coming from, the opportunity for HSBC to clean up on finance on bikes is good. Force BC to back enduro as part of the 8 year deal, build an aggressive retail finance deal to steal market share from black horse finance. Rider numbers go up, series grows, bikes sell well, LBS' make cash, HSBC clean up. Everyone wins.
I think you vastly over estimate the importance of a fast growing niche within a niche of a niche sport. HSBC probably don't even know (or care) what Enduro is.
Don't for get the Southern Enduro Champs is in the south west.
Yeah, on the verge of signing up for the Southern Champs. Wasn't initially going to do it as it fell smack bang on Easter weekend and right between BES rounds 1 and 2, so not very family friendly for me!
Southwest Gravity Enduro are now looking to get something going in Cornwall for the summer so that's great news.
Yeah, on the verge of signing up for the Southern Champs. Wasn't initially going to do it as it fell smack bang on Easter weekend and right between BES rounds 1 and 2, so not very family friendly for me!
Yeah enduro calendar would be nice if better spaced
Went too high key. Last I saw, BES was trying to be the national championship series, and was trying to appear quite elite. Talk of being the top boy, creating a federation and qualification etc, so didn't/wouldn't interest me at all. Didn't like the snide talk towards the other, other enduro thing too. Seems others thought the same.
kimbers - Member
Yeah, on the verge of signing up for the Southern Champs. Wasn't initially going to do it as it fell smack bang on Easter weekend and right between BES rounds 1 and 2, so not very family friendly for me!
Yeah enduro calendar would be nice if better spaced
I know we have had this chat about this before Kimbers, the way I work it.
I won't clash or me a week before/after:
An Enduro in South East (Swinley Enduro, Pedal hounds)
I won't clash with:
Local south east DH races,
Enduro's south of Birmingham (including south wales),
A national Enduro Series (if one exists)
Big race like Ard'rock, PMBA national champs.
What I will clashes with:
A race north of Birmingham, north wales, Scotland, IOM etc.... (only if I have too)
From the horse's mouth...
http://wideopenmag.co.uk/2017/01/exclusive-si-paton-cancelled-2017-british-enduro-series
Total respect for how he's handled this.
Interesting interview with Si Paton.
"I’ve always pitched towards them, the cream of the crop. I always say that the BDS is the top 50% of the regional riders."
" I strongly believe that a national race series needs to be two days, it needs to be a stepping stone up to the Enduro World Series"
"...look at Chris Roberts’ Mini Enduro – he gets about 300 odd riders – he’s fighting them off. No disrespect to that series, but that’s an entry level series"
Not an elitist attitude at all.When multiple other events are thriving it's probably best to put your hand up instead of blaming sponsors,bike shops,importers,the riders,other series,brexit etc.
Do you think he's blaming or just explaining?
Seems to me he's honest about what he wanted the series to be and about the demand not being there now.
Not an elitist attitude at all.
Was that sarcasm?
Mini Enduro – he gets about 300 odd riders – he’s fighting them off. No disrespect to that series, but that’s an entry level series
No Si, that's a successful series.
Mini Enduro – he gets about 300 odd riders – he’s fighting them off. No disrespect to that series, but that’s an entry level seriesNo Si, that's a successful series.
True it's successful,but I totally agree with Si in his vision that a national series needs to be a big step up from a regional one.
I LOVED the MiniEnduro I did last year, but you can't have the next step up from a one day, 3 stage event with no timed transitions, no seeding etc. be the EWS.
Exactly , the gap between a mini enduro and an EWS is huge
There needs to be national series that prepares riders for the EWS, so big loops, tough stages, not trail centre, so needs a lot of work from a dig crew.
Ukge with others ,ran a youth scheme, those guys are now at the top of the field in UK races- thats important too
Good interview but I think to make this sort of event work I would be looking to tie up a media sponsor. Which could give you profile to get entries, profile to get spectators and profile for sponsors. Now normally at this level you get no cash for media sponsorship you usually get media contra opportunities but it will help give the event more profile.
The trouble with making the national series a step up to the EWS is that it then appeals to a tiny minority of riders. How many riders in the UK are at that almost-EWS level? 50?
The vast majority of riders don't want long physically demanding loops or long EWS-wannabe pedalfest stages or loads of scary techy steep stuff.
As it happens, I do, but that's because I'm special. I did three BES rounds last year. I really enjoyed the stages and came more or less last every time. But I couldn't give a damn about stepping up to the EWS.
I think the BES failed because of the endless focus on prize money and elite riders and rules and regulations. It should have made more effort to appeal to people like me: average riders looking to push their limits and have fun. We know we're only there to make up numbers, but we don't need our noses rubbed in it.
UKE ended horribly but it did get the vibe so much better. I suspect that's where Ard Rock is succeeding. You want a successful multi-day event, you have to have food and drinks and music and fun together in the evening. Not everyone tucked up in bed by 9pm.
The atmosphere at the BES reminded me of a British Cycling XC race crossed with a funeral...
There needs to be national series that prepares riders for the EWS, so big loops, tough stages, not trail centre, so needs a lot of work from a dig crew.
So the SES then
20 to 30 miles each day. 4,000 to 5,000ft of climbing
very, very little trail centre stuff (barring glenlivet)
The SES is not exactly a useable series for the majority of the UK population
How many riders in the UK are at that almost-EWS level? 50
well tweedlove gets nearly 500 riders from all over the UK
So the SES then20 to 30 miles each day. 4,000 to 5,000ft of climbing
That's a fairly standard old UKGE sized loop. Probably about half a big EWS day where there are actual, proper mountains.
33 UK riders have already prequalified for the 2017 EWS. Add in the team riders and the ones who get in through the lottery. We aren't that badly represented as a nation so someone is getting it right at grass roots level.
UKGE rounds from 2015 (looking at my strava)
were friday 40k 1500m climbing
saturday 16k 600m climbing
sunday 40k 1500m climbing
(thats the same for dyfi, Ae, grizedale)
EWS Tweedlove was
20.2km 878m weds
55.2km 1,601m thurs
20.2km 878m sat
55.2km 1,601m sun
The "elite" races aren't going to get the numbers though (as mini-enduro demonstrates)
Are there 500 riders in the UK who want to/are available to qualify for the EWS (and all of the trips abroad this would entail), can attend all of the UKE dates, and have the money to do so?
Most of those who can are highly likely to be sponsored, and really don't need to qualify through a national series.
As has shown, a national series isn't financially viable at the moment, and the generic cover-all failed business excuse of brexit has nothing to do with it. Other series are thriving.
Do the americans, Canadians, swiss, french, italians etc etc have to qualify through a regional/national series?
Do the americans, Canadians, swiss, french, italians etc etc have to qualify through a regional/national series?
You don't have to qualify for the EWS, it just takes the lottery element away for the amateurs if they win a qualifying event. It just guarantees a place but there are still open entries available albeit well oversubscribed
Not as straight forward as wining a Qualifying event. Only so many places avaiable for them. We are lucky that three are avalable in the UK this year. 2016 needed a bit of comitment to travel to get three results.
The EWS Qualifier Events offer those looking to focus on enduro racing a clear pathway into the series. Taking place across the world in 2017, the 40 events will allow the fastest riders a way to secure entry to their chosen EWS races. Enduro Mountain Bike Association (EMBA) members can gain points based on their results at these local races, with the best three results of the year totalled to generate their global qualifying ranking for the following year.
Just seen that the UKGE Facebook page has been reopened...
Looks like Steve's stirring 😆
😆
The mini-enduro format actually sounded like a laugh (the reason people mountain bike really). Two days of slogging up fireroads to race the equivalent of DH courses from 1997? I'd rather inject my eyes with DOT fluid....
Too busy eating mung beans,riding fat bikes and saying ehh a lot......
Are there 500 riders in the UK who want to/are available to qualify for the EWS (and all of the trips abroad this would entail),
Not everyone who enters a national level race necessarily want to step up to world level, it's just about having a level above regional.
This is currently working fine in both DH and XC (and CX?) in the UK, so I don't think it's crazy to assume it can't work for enduro.
This is currently working fine in both DH and XC (and CX?) in the UK, so I don't think it's crazy to assume it can't work for enduro.
They have the support of British cycling, Enduro doesn't. This makes a big difference organising a 'National' series.
They have the support of British cycling, Enduro doesn't. This makes a big difference organising a 'National' series.
why? if lots of other series can organise events without BC why can't a "national" series.
The logistics of arranging catering, medical cover, timing, Marshalls, parking,and course building from Inners to dyfi to triscombe rad help from BC is very useful!
SES does it perfectly well, there is no difference doing it at one location to another.
All SES venues are within 3h30mins of each other. It practical to use the same catering, medical cover, Marshals, course builders etc...
Inners to Triscombe is 7 hours not as practical to use the same.
BC centralises the organisation of events and also helps secure sponsors. HSBC for instance.
I'm not saying it cant be done but it takes a lot of time commitment to run the DH model as Si found out.
Isn't the XC model different regional organisers brought together by BC for a national series?
inners to triscomwe 7 hours on a good day ! its taken me much longer to get from london to inners
ukge dig team were on it every other weekend for the whole year iirc, thats a lot of diesel for a start!
Which is why a national series needs to be set up like the EWS with different regional organisers hosting a round or even having one of their races as a uk point scoring event.
The principle of having a National series which is a stepping stone to the EWS is fine logic, but I do wonder whether the fact that one of the reasons the BES was cancelled was down to low (very low apparently) numbers is because there isn't the [i]actual[/i] rider demand for it?
It isn't like the UK is short of technical terrain to ride and train on and training to be able to do long, hard, sustained efforts in the saddle over multiple days is easy done outside of a race.
I can't help but think that it is the lack of UK Level endorsement by BC that is ultimately the cause; it's not like 'grassroots' enduro is suffering.
Maybe the answer lies within the existing series. Expert and Elite categories have to ride to timed transfers, or maybe do the course twice. Perhaps one round per year is "the big one" which, ok, may attract less numbers due to its intimidating nature, but that won't adversely affect the series overall as numbers are generally high enough to make it work.
Either that or people start signing up for the BDS and sack off the uplift and ride up instead!
Perhaps one round per year is "the big one" which, ok, may attract less numbers due to its intimidating nature,
big ones can still pull big numbers- before the great decline epic ukge races at dyfi etc pulled in 300+ riders
If the numbers just aren't there to built an elite series, Maybe the regional races could provide an elite class where the class would have to do each stage twice, doubling the transition mileage and stages ridden compared to novice riders?
Kimbers, absolutely, agreed. My point was more that each series could purposely include a 'big' round but not at the cost of overall participation in the series i.e. no doubt a lot of people were put off by the fact that the BES did include big, long, tough stages.
The market is there for big stage races - just look at Ard' Rock. I just don't think the market (volume) is there for a series of big stage races.
kiksy - MemberNot everyone who enters a national level race necessarily want to step up to world level, it's just about having a level above regional.
Yup- [i]I've [/i]ridden two EWS rounds and probably about 20 national rounds and I'm a total fanny.
the fact that one of the reasons the BES was cancelled was down to low (very low apparently) numbers is because there isn't the actual rider demand for it?
no it was brexit lol
snorkelsucker - MemberKimbers, absolutely, agreed. My point was more that each series could purposely include a 'big' round but not at the cost of overall participation in the series
This is being discussed by BEMBA.
Highlevel: An organisers in each region putting on a race to make a nation series.
Not an EWS modelled, EWS model is more of a money making model.
Since when did big loops put people off? It never did at UKGE.
IMO having two uk series ****ed things up as riders would choose one or the other.
There was enough interest nationally pre 2015 and there is at regional level so who ever takes on a national series needs to consider what draws in the racers.
Since when did big loops put people off?
anecdotally, speaking to people at races, and reading comments online, quite a few people just seem to want to push up the climbs at a steady pace, and then race the downs. The Afan mashup in Feb - for instance - is not using the main Whites climb and instead using a road as transition (not sure the reasoning, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was that too many people complained about the main climb ) To me this seems like it's missing out on a huge part on what makes enduro interesting and different from DH, but if that's what people want then thats that.
If people want to push up climbs due to laziness/lacking fitness then best they move over to downhill. Which won't happen for many reasons.
I agree, it starts to defy the point of enduro - riding bikes that are capable of climbing with relative ease while riding as fast as possible downhill.
Not everyone who enters a national level race necessarily want to step up to world level, it's just about having a level above regional.
Well, this was exactly what BES stated (and Si's interview) it wanted to be - a national race as a step up into EWS.
This is currently working fine in both DH and XC (and CX?) in the UK, so I don't think it's crazy to assume it can't work for enduro.
The now defunct BES disagrees.
Kev from PMBA gives his perspective on the state of UK enduro in this interview...
http://unduro.co.uk/mtb/in-the-hot-seat-pmba-enduros-kev-duckworth/
A couple of things mentioned on here putting people off - expensive entry and trail centre stages, and mini enduro being noted as a series getting it right.
Just looked at their bpw event, £47.50 for 3 stages?
What is so good about their events they can get such good entries when it costs more than an uplift day?
I had planned on riding but think I'd be better going on a non race day and paying for uplift instead.
I appreciate the above sounds negative, but genuinely interested.
Fwiw I'm not the biggest fan of minienduro vfm wise and is hardly an epic loop or scenic loop at how!
That said they always sell out and it's very well run, I did last years race and it was good laugh with mates and still worth it!
If you want a bigger loop on good Welsh terrain I'd look at wges and Wes series, both very good
In particular wges are picking up the Dyfi round from the cancelled BES and it will be ****g amazeballs imho
anecdotally, speaking to people at races, and reading comments online, quite a few people just seem to want to push up the climbs at a steady pace, and then race the downs. The Afan mashup in Feb - for instance - is not using the main Whites climb and instead using a road as transition (not sure the reasoning, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was that too many people complained about the main climb ) To me this seems like it's missing out on a huge part on what makes enduro interesting and different from DH, but if that's what people want then thats that.
You can still ride up the climb if you want to. Main reason is minimising exposure to the elements in Feb and an awful lot of locals go up the concrete road anyway, keeps it fairer for all and its a lot shorter 🙂
yeah last years race was driving wind and rain, the climb was ****g horrible
I enjoyed it, I rode up it again for another go. I was surprised how many people did the 4 stages then went home at that race.kimbers - Memberyeah last years race was driving wind and rain, the climb was ****g horrible
You can still ride up the climb if you want to. Main reason is minimising exposure to the elements in Feb and an awful lot of locals go up the concrete road anyway, keeps it fairer for all and its a lot shorter
Thanks for the clarification!
mini enduro being noted as a series getting it right.
Just looked at their bpw event, £47.50 for 3 stages?
What is so good about their events they can get such good entries when it costs more than an uplift day?
At the Fod race, one thing I'd say they nailed was the taping. Taping off the trails in some interesting ways so you couldn't just use the obvious line, especially at the end of stage 1.
Just looked at their bpw event, £47.50 for 3 stages?
What is so good about their events they can get such good entries when it costs more than an uplift day?
Er, because its not just a case of turning up for a quick ride with your mates? It's like a proper competition n stuff.
Sheesh.
