[Closed] No more British Enduro Series?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Strava) Turn up, ride against a clock.
Enduro) Pay £75, turn up, ride against [s]the clock.[/s] other people on the same day with other people with accurate timing, safety marshalls and no cheating

Where?

The only race series that consistently thrives is Pearce.

It's a debatable point, sure. Many Gravity Project races sell out now (i.e. no on the day available) whereas you always could get in a while ago. Tidworth races sold out in advance, as did last FOD Winter DH, and the Rogate race for some time has been enter early or else. Borderline races doing well too?, but against that Aston Hill had to cancel at least one of their events last year (may not have been entries related, I forget).

So, maybe healthy would have been a better word than thriving, but I think the point still stands.

Yeah but you're comparing races that have 100 entries for the most part as a maximum capacity. (GP's are generally 100 people when i've done them, the odd Rogate race has 150 odd).

One offs like Tidworth etc are different. I don't know any other DH series that sells out other than Pearce. In fact a huge number of race series have gone over the years as well.

I think for the most part, regional enduro stuff is massively more popular than DH, the captive audience is significantly more vast for starters.

wonder what will happen to the EWS qualifing now?

I wouldn't want to pay any more than about that for a DH race like the ones at Cannock maybe double for an enduro because of the need for multiple stages, XC maybe up to £15.

Racers Guild events at Stile Cop are £30 now to enter and via BC.

Having entered, there does seem to be an awful lot put into behind the scenes that you don't see or appreciate until the day.

??

I wouldn't want to pay any more than about that for a DH race like the ones at Cannock maybe double for an enduro because of the need for multiple stages, XC maybe up to £15.

What. Then there wouldn't be any races would there? Your expectations are unrealistic!

Shame for BES. Wanted to do DYFI. Enduro does need something similar but maybe there isn't the market with all of these smaller events doing well. Be interesting to see how many racers there are. maybe rootsandrain would know so we could understand how viable extra races are.

I agree to an extent with the above about not paying to ride stuff you can ride all the time. I really like racing and have done for decades. Get to go some great places but Part of the appeal of racing for me is fresh tracks and natural stuff. But I can't stand trail centres so last thing I would do is to pay to enter it. Whatever happens any national series needs to think about what they race.

other people on the same day with other people with accurate timing, safety marshalls and no cheating

I agree, but it depends how marginal those extras are worth to you.

And there's a certain madness (to me) in paying to do something that's good because lots of (also paying) people are there. It's true, but I've always questioned my sanity in liking festivals over gigs for the same reason!

Shame about this. Si Paton was clearly running a very professional operation and trying to provide a top-notch experience for the entry fee.

Dunno what this says about the state of enduro as a discipline, clearly its not ready for a proper national series - but my experience of racing the PMBA events is that there are more serious and fast racers out there than ever before.

I'd be inclined to take him at face value that it was an unhappy combination of sponsors pulling out, low entry numbers and personal circumstances.

I guess the regional series need to keep on developing and let's see what happens out of that.

What. Then there wouldn't be any races would there? Your expectations are unrealistic!

But are they, or is it that expected levels of infrastructure surrounding the events with marshals, super duper timing, first aid etc etc are inflating the price of the event beyond what makes sense for many people?

Don't get me wrong, I pay to enter several events at varying price points every year, but every year I also see prices increase. Its becoming more and more the case that a weekend away for some events (including travel, B&B etc) is costing a small fortune.

Sad times for it to be not going ahead, also CSG - cannondale in the uk had their marketing budget cut by
30% this year so something had to give.

chakaping - Member

Dunno what this says about the state of enduro as a discipline, clearly its not ready for a proper national series

The succesful national series up here, and the previously succesful UKGE, prove otherwise tbh. But UKGE jumped the shark and it's been a mess since south of the border. (that's not a criticism of Si's events btw! Just to preempt misunderstanding)

The succesful national series up here, and the previously succesful UKGE, prove otherwise tbh

To a degree, but back when the UKGE was selling out fast, there was 'very' limited choice when it came to other races/series to enter.

The UK should have a national series IMO, they should be big days out & tough stages, otherwise there is no clear development/feeder route to bigger events.

The gap between a UKGE & an EWS was already big before, a regional to EWS would be huge. I guess it's now less of an issue, as the EWS is slowly evolving to be a little more elitist as it moves forward.

The UK should have a national series IMO, they should be big days out & tough stages, otherwise there is no clear development/feeder route to bigger events.

That's what BES was trying to be wasn't it? I think the problem was they wanted to be that but at 250 riders, which there isn't (yet). I wonder if they could have survived at 100-150 riders at twice the entry price. Certainly a lot of people would have paid that for the top UK series, but enough?

Northwind - The SES is effectively a regional series, being comparable in size, scale & audience to the other regional series.

UKGE tried to become more elite-focused and that seemed to be its undoing, so I think my comment about the UK not being ready for a [u]proper[/u] national series is very valid.

PS. Apparently the PMBA was the most popular series last year by volume of entries, who'd have thoguht that?

fifeandy - Member

What. Then there wouldn't be any races would there? Your expectations are unrealistic!

But are they, or is it that expected levels of infrastructure surrounding the events with marshals, super duper timing, first aid etc etc are inflating the price of the event beyond what makes sense for many people?

Don't get me wrong, I pay to enter several events at varying price points every year, but every year I also see prices increase. Its becoming more and more the case that a weekend away for some events (including travel, B&B etc) is costing a small fortune.

It is getting more expensive but so is everything so they have to cover costs. A single day dragon race with uplift cost about £25 15 years ago but we pay nearly double that for races without an uplift.

I think if you want toilets, some form of electronic timing, marshalls, medical cover, land hire then I'd be surprised if you can get it much less than what it costs at say £15.

The UK should have a national series IMO, they should be big days out & tough stages, otherwise there is no clear development/feeder route to bigger events.

+1

chakaping - Member

UKGE tried to become more elite-focused and that seemed to be its undoing

People said that at the time but imo it's bobbins- the changes that turned people off weren't doing anything for elites either. If changes in favour of elites had put off weekend warriors that would have been different but that was never really the case, and just putting people off and introducing barriers to entry isn't elite-focused. Stopping listening to riders was UKGE's undoing.

TBF there's only so many people that have the experience, the skillset and the willingness to run a national series. (the latter probably the hardest one to find!) I think that's the limiting factor, not riders or "the scene".

SES certainly is a national series, just like the SDA (and operates on a bigger level than the UK series did last year, apparently).

[quote=Mbnut ]Scotroutes... I take your point, hence why I have a Tweedlove event, a PMBA event, a WES event or two and a couple of Southern events lined up plus I had the BES Dyfi round lined up.
I enjoy the events a great deal, I actually don't really enjoy racing a great deal and for me supporting events and organisers is important.
Mountain biking and biking in general is my passion, when I travel to pursue it I make a point of using a spread of local businesses too, I try to give back as well as take from the sport.Aye - that wasn't a dig at you but you did highlight the fact that travel costs are not insignificant (whether racing or just leisuring) and can impact the amount of journeys we are prepared to make.

SES just like the SDA is a national series

And at the risk of taking the lid off a whole other argument, when talking about a 'British' series, that makes Scotland a region, in much the same way an English or Welsh series would also be regional.

Either way, is it possible we are maybe seeing some of the issues I brought up in the XC thread come up in an Enduro setting? Some in the thread have mentioned over saturation of events. Maybe looking at it from the other angle, there aren't enough grass roots races and hence by extension not a high enough population of competitive riders to justify a proper high level series? Just a thought.

However we have no real regional series to act as competition and draw riders away

Tweedlove Triple Crown is really the only other one and to be honest we don't need another series. SES does everything it needs to do. Muckmedden offers a lower level of racing and nice introductory/ less elite racing, albeit not in a series format. Other one off races too like Macavalanche, Kinlochleven, Dunkeld, Ballo etc

Actually I think I agree with the previous comments about the increase in local enduro events having an impact on the "national" series.

Lack of entries was the main driver for the demise of all three, so riders are clearly getting their needs met by the cheaper, closer regional series.

Northwind - we are talking about the state of [u]British[/u] enduro. If I give you a pedant point will you admit in that context the SES is a regional series?

It doesn't help that we appear to be an odd demographic who'll spend literally thousands on their bikes and then baulk at car parking fees, entry fees and anything else that costs a fraction of the machine you're riding!

£50 for the new tyre from Maxxis?...yes please.
£50 to enter an Enduro race?....what I'm not paying that!

chakaping - Member

Northwind - we are talking about the state of British enduro. I I give you a pedant point will you admit in that context the SES is a regional series?

Nope, a national series is a national series, it's just definition. And Scotland is part of Britain, last I looked. TBF one of the problems here is that there was never an English national enduro series.

But it's definitely true that there's a split at the borders when it comes to the state of enduro, and that's no surprise- the "modern era of enduro" started here after all and the rest of the UK has followed the Innerleithen MTB Racing lead. And we had local resilience whic meant we've not really suffered much from the fall of the UKGE and the subsequent stramash which mostly seems to have worn out riders and organisers alike and robbed the rest of the country of enthusiasm and momentum- without the SES we'd be in the same hole.

OTOH our national series has arms raced- some SES rounds are harder than the scottish EWS rounds- and the wider scene feels a bit hollow and imbalanced, and the Lite series which should be the stepping stone isn't thriving. I always say the same, I was lucky to be at #ukendurogroundzero back in 2011 and I've been hanging on ever since but I don't know that I'd have got into it the same way if I started today. What we have now is better in every other way frankly, but personally I don't think it's a healthy/balanced scene.

Meanwhile south of the border, there's what looks like a great range of regional and local events, from where I am your midrange seems way healthier than ours, but you now have literally no national level- you never had an English series and now there's no UK series either. But you have the breadth of scene that could realistically grow a new one quickly, if it can get away from the baggage of the past.

By which I mean- don't try and be the successor to a failed series, don't obsess with being shiny and "top end" til you have a bottom end, don't make it complicated when simple works, don't try and sell it on "benefits" that don't really make much difference to 99% of entrants. Broadly speaking, do it like the Scottish do, because it works. You, er, might want to improve the signage and marshalling a bit though.

But to get right back to the start; the idea that the UK can't support a national enduro series seems absurd, when it's done so in the past when the scene as a whole was far weaker, and when Scotland can do it credibly with about 1/12th of the population. I mean, Wales can support a UK downhill series 😉

Northwind - Member

TBH local experience was that they talked a good talk and posted pics of them throwing a shovel of hardcore in some mud but they didn't really do anything. Any actual building was done by the same locals as usual.

How little you know....

 

I know who built what and I know it was us that did all of the essential repairs afterwards too...

Over the last few years, I've raced PMBAs, Mini Enduros, Welsh Gravity Enduros and Ard Rock.

After experiencing Ard Rock in 2016 I've decided I like the feeling of the bigger events that are at interesting venues. So for 2017 it will be National Champs, Tweedlove International and Ard Rock. I never even considered the national series, it just didn't sound like fun.

Should re-emerge with local clubs putting on stages on their home tracks and the whole thing going on tour.

an expensive corporate experience is not interesting, frankly.

Should re-emerge with local clubs putting on stages on their home tracks and the whole thing going on tour.

Anyway just worked out to 4/5 rounds of the Oz Nationals it's 14,000km Round trip 🙂

I never even considered the national series, it just didn't sound like fun.

Really? Coz I've raced all those you've listed and the ukge as a series was better than the lot (well tweedlove as good as, if not better for the 1st EWS)

You've missed out!

We need a national series

It's not all bad though

The BES dig crew are now going to start a SW series and hopefully the EWS feeder event at Dyfi will still go ahead

Here's an idea

There are already Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland series.

Why don't they say the PMBA is the English series.

Each series nominates one event from theirs

Those events then count towards an overall "national/British" title

So you can do your normal series, and then a select handful of events in other series, or just focus on the events that count towards the "national" title.

That avoids over saturation of the event calendar and gives the other "regional"* series a boost

*I strongly object to the SES etc being called regional...

Bob that debate is for the Scotland Indy thread 😉

😆

I think its easy to overstate the importance of the BES not running. It was never our 'National' series, it never really got going, and ultimately was only ridden by maybe < 500 people in total. Non-racer (spectator) participation was zilch, the pits/trade stands were barely there, and there was zero atmosphere for the most part by comparison to a UKGE. Apart from the ever changing race format the race/courses were in the most part good, but thats really all it had going for it.

The wider Enduro race scene is stronger than ever and I don't think this is more than a blip tbh. It will be long forgotten by February.

Tweedlove actually blew everyone else away last year

kimbers - Member

Bob that debate is for the Scotland Indy thread

Let "the 45" have their victory 😉

[quote=legend ] kimbers - Member
Bob that debate is for the Scotland Indy thread
Let "the 45" have their victory

Except I was one of the 55...

BoardinBob - Member

Tweedlove actually blew everyone else away last year

How were the queues at the 400+ rider races?

EDIT:

BoardinBob - Member
Except I was one of the 55...

So you're one of [i]THEM[/i]?!? 😉

Each series nominates one event from theirs

Those events then count towards an overall "national/British" title

Its a good idea and already in use, the British fellrunning championships are done that way.

The problem is Bob, you need to get people to agree/talk/communicate. In cycling that seems alien at times.
You could do with maybe a big organisation to help organise and also communicate/agree/talk - maybe someone like British/Scottish Cycling. Except they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, have no interest in MTB other than XC and making up more courses for coaches to sit through...

On a related note - our club is seeing real issues with how many road and cx events there are. Every weekend is a clash of events. Perhaps it is not just MTB?

legend - Member

How were the queues at the 400+ rider races?

Of the stages I ran, one had a big ol queue for a good chunk of the day and was pretty grim (final stage on a wet day, I think people were boosting around the last transition to get home which stacked it up heavily), the others never very big except when there was a red flag or other course hold. Don't know if it was like that all round the hill but from what I saw it was fairly average. As a rider I never really queued at all but you only see your own surrounds.

The big factor isn't so much racer numbers as how fast they go out really- 200 riders in half the time has pretty similiar stresses to 400 in twice the time, the worst queues I've experienced were all either in smaller races, or at the start of races without set start times.

You could do with maybe a big organisation to help organise and also communicate/agree/talk - maybe someone like British/Scottish Cycling. Except they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, have no interest in MTB other than XC and making up more courses for coaches to sit through...

I think this is very true

from the 2nd and 3rd hand info ive got about race organisers it seems theres a lot more opportunity for cooperation than has been seen up to now

Strong input from BC couldve changed that

What's in it for BC? Not a lot I'd suggest.

This is where HSBC should force BC's hand.

If Enduro is the fast growing bit of mtb and that's where product sale is coming from, the opportunity for HSBC to clean up on finance on bikes is good. Force BC to back enduro as part of the 8 year deal, build an aggressive retail finance deal to steal market share from black horse finance. Rider numbers go up, series grows, bikes sell well, LBS' make cash, HSBC clean up. Everyone wins.

dragon - Member
What's in it for BC?

the warm glow of satisfaction that youd actually done your job and represented the interest of british cyclists?

I reckon the importance of having BC on board is shown here. They have the logistical and communication reach to deliver National events.