[Closed] No helmets - Why? Are they mad?

No offence TJ, thanks but no thanks. Life's too short for dry articles , I always wear a helmet on the bike whatever the terrain or journey length. That's my choice, and whatever people decide is up to them be it helmet or no helmet.
The advantage of a democracy is you can do what you want however foolish others may perceive it!

[url] http://www.eta.co.uk/2010/10/14/cardboard-cycle-helmet-can-be-recycled ][/url]

Cardboard helmets are the future 😉

@ tj

your other half is braver than me! there's no way i'd be happy getting air on a tandem.
you must of been going pretty quick to get both wheels off the ground.

this makes me laugh, ive been mtbing for 19 years, never wear a helmet apart from trail centres where i feel pressured to wear one, leave people to make their own risk assesment..

No helmets - are they mad?
[img] [/img]

Right so he rips his FACE so should wear a helmet that has no face coverage?

Hang on.. helmets stick out at the front, so if you land face first you only graze your chin and the end of your nose, surely? In the two helmet trashing accidents I've borne close witness to, that's exactly what happened. They were faceplants, and the bit of helmet sticking out of the front protected the face.

That's why it's stupid to wear them sat on the back of your head like you see sometimes.

go on then, I'll bite.
say you went over the bars and bumped your head at fairly low speed on this: [img] [/img]
which outcome is most likely:
A) your head hurts less with a helmet on,
B) the helmet makes no difference or might make injury worse...?

speaking from personal experience of similar offs on rocky trails, I know which answer I'd give 😐

What I don't understand is why people get so upset and insulting toward people not wearing helmets - people like TJ aren't saying that its wrong to wear helmets and that there is absolutely no need for them, all they are saying is that in some situations they are not as useful as they are made out to be and its up to the individual to calculate the risk and decide if the type of cycling they are doing warrants wearing a helmet or not.

Seems a simple enough concept to me - Personally, I wear a helmet pretty much all the time but that's my choice. I certainly don't feel threatened by the fact other people have different opinions on the issue.

I know car drivers who've told me that because cyclists quite often wear a helmet it was perfectly OK to run into them because the helmet would stop them being injured.
I tend to wear a helmet but I don't always, I don't care either way really, however, take a look at countries with extremely high cycle use and compare helmet wearing figures with those countries that have extremely litigious societies and have devolved responsibility for injury away from the main causes to the main affected.

I don't care anymore if people don't want to wear helmets, its when the small majority sue because they have taken a knock to the head.

Choice is always the better option.

Thank you rudedog. someone understands!

its up to the individual to calculate the risk

Yeah but individuals are notoriously bad about calculating risk. Not that many years ago people would drink loads then drive home without a seatbelt and a baby loose on the back seat without a second thought.

Here is my unhelpful contribution- most stats show that cyclists riding offroad are massively more likely to suffer a damaging knee injury than a damaging head injury. And the case for kneepads preventing injury is stronger than the case for helmets, and there's no argument at all that kneepads cause injury or increase the severity of injury.

Yet if you wear knee pads, you're a poof, whereas if you don't wear a helmet, you're a moron.

So if you're in this thread pouring scorn on people who don't wear helmets, I hope you wear knee pads

here's a quote from one of the 'studies' referred to earlier:

While it must be acknowledged that police casualty reports are prone to under-reporting, particularly of incidents involving lower severity casualties the attractive feature of these data are that by definition they only concern road casualties.

that says quite a lot I think. Its all about the sample taken containing only examples of the point that is being made. Nicholas Taleb explains it a lot better than I could in The Black Swan/Fooled by Randomness, both excellent reads regardless of whether you wear a helmet or not

aP - Member
I know car drivers who've told me that because cyclists quite often wear a helmet it was perfectly OK to run into them...

For the purpose of the perpetual STW helmet-debate-a-thon, I've had one potentially serious off this year, OTB on a 3-4' drop-off, full force on me bonce. Glad I had my helmet on...slightly dazed and on my way in a minute or two. No idea whether I'd have suffered anything more serious without it, but I'm sure it would have hurt a tad more. Agree 100% with TJ though, that it's not always necessary and people should be smart enough to make a sensible choice - I think his two tandem photos illustrate this perfectly.

These helmet threads are funny and great debate. PLenty of people glad they were wearing on in crashes. I have never met anyone say "so glad I wasn't wearing a helmet, I avoided that rotational injury" (has anyone?)
I almost always wear one as I never know when I will come off and except maybe in the odd case it has to be reduce the risk of injury no matter what scientific report anyone can come up with. This convinced me though..... Cheers Josh

molgrips - Member

Yeah but individuals are notoriously bad about calculating risk. Not that many years ago people would drink loads then drive home without a seatbelt and a baby loose on the back seat without a second thought.

Intoxication through alcohol actually impairs your ability to calculate risk so that's a pretty poor analogy.

I am happy for people not to wear helmet... As long as they pay for their own NHS bills :p

Odd lot the French - sorting out the UK Health Service from a country where you have to go and buy your own sutures and pay [b]before[/b] they will treat you 🙄

On the helmets debate people vastly overstate the odds,

cycling is a safe pursuit and head injury rates are low.

TJ - I can't believe you have been drawn into this yet again. Must be all that cold wind in your hair clouding your judgement 😉

Yeah I know. I been attempting to give info to people when they asked for it.

And take the piss a bit as well

Must be the hole in my head

Tomato soup and garlic bread rocks!

Yet if you wear knee pads, you're a poof, whereas if you don't wear a helmet, you're a moron.

But I draw the line at kids, I believe in lids and other protection, and my kids have to wear it, so this is where the freedom of choice argument falls down?

Kids. Hmmmmmmmmmm Several points

Are they capable of making a rational assessment ( gillick competence)
Young kids skulls are softer, some kids skills are crap, some take lots of risks.

I think its recognised morally and legally that adults can and must make decisions for kids in some circumstances.

Just make sure that their helmets fit and are done up properly.

As an aside - how many of you helmet evangelists wear them properly - less than half even of serious mtbers IME Most have the straps loose

Rusty nobheadcheese - I've pretty much cycled 4+ times a week every week since 1986, I meet lots of people, sometimes they're not very nice. You might want to wind your neck in before you go back to school tomorrow or you'll get detention. 😐

I'm sorry aP, you've confused me. Don't feel bad, it's easily done.

What is the correlation between the number of times you go out cycling each week, vs the number of car drivers who you [i]claim[/i] are happy to mow down cyclists, based solely on the fact that they're wearing helmets and as such are adequately protected against motor vehicles...therefore fair game for their hit-and-run antics? You see, I know dozens of people (I don't mean to boast, I'm a popular guy) but I don't know anyone who drives a car and would be prepared to hold their hand up to that sort of cock-noshing twaddle. So either you know a lot of monstrous bell-ends, or you're getting carried away with your posting.

School tomorrow? I wish! Kids these days, they don't know they're born...

p.s. Rusty nobheadcheese...I like it 😀 although Rusty Smegma may have been a more erudite insult.

I still managed to fracture my skull in a DH accident 5 years ago at Inneliethen punching a big hole in a cheekbone despite wearing a Giro DH helmet which now i think has crap protection compared to a motocross helmet...
yeah downhill riding is more severe than xc riding with grave consequences from a mistake...but...folk on here are talking about riding easy xc trails/roads without helmets...
the folk on here like my friend TJ who chooses to ride (and the other riders) without a helmet arnt going around shouting about it and trying to enforce there views on everyone else, they have made there choice and are only on here saying why they choose to ride lid-less...
seems its the other folk who have an issue about it...
i see folk riding horses without helmets on the beach alot..
and come the cold of winter i too ride beaches with head wrapped up in a beanie...as do most winter Alaskan/snow bikers..over solid icy (dangerous?) ground. Dutch cyclists dont where helmets, but there country is educated and open armed to cyclists...
More folk are suffering injuries and health disorders from smoking and drinking in the UK than cycling head injuries...
cycling is one of the few last acts of freedom we can do...we can now go where we want-well here in Scotland anyway, lets enjoy that freedom however we want to... 😮

rudedog - Member
What I don't understand is why people get so upset and insulting toward people not wearing helmets - people like TJ aren't saying that its wrong to wear helmets and that there is absolutely no need for them, all they are saying is that in some situations they are not as useful as they are made out to be and its up to the individual to calculate the risk and decide if the type of cycling they are doing warrants wearing a helmet or not.

Seems a simple enough concept to me - Personally, I wear a helmet pretty much all the time but that's my choice. I certainly don't feel threatened by the fact other people have different opinions on the issue.

I agree.

TJ's first pic shows a nice easy trail without helmets, quite sensibly TJ and his tandem partner are wearing helmets for the 2nd pic which shows something a little more technical to ride.

Two perfectly acceptable scenarios there.

Similarly, I often 'nip into town' using off road cycle lanes, I don't wear a helmet for this as I'm A) Not using the roads whatsoever and B) Not riding anything technical. Should I choose to use the roads, I also choose a helmet but this is my choice and I certainly would not judge others should they choose not to.

Off road technical singletrack I use standard lids the majority of the time, sometimes combined with pads, sometimes I wear a Met Parachute and yes I am aware it;s no substitute for full face but it does give me a little more confidence knowing that chin guard will probably take some of the force whilst snapping on impact. I'm also considering a full face for winter as you can pick up some bargains and I reckon I'll handle the heat inside while it's so cold outside.

Funnily enough, you also get judged for wearing protection by those that like to sneer 'over armoured weekend warrior no idea boy', they might be right, I wear this stuff when I up my game to something outside my comfort zone with the theory I can return to these obstacles with standard lid one day in the knowledge I now have a bit more skill and know how,or carry on with the higher protection, it's my adult head not theirs. What's wrong with that?

Either way, you wear too much, you're judged, wear too little, you're judged. It's a no win situation.

Yeah but individuals are notoriously bad about calculating risk

I barely ever wear a helmet when I ride my bmx. Except sometimes when I'm down at the track.

The bike I fall off the most? Yeah, you're right, its my unicycle. But I fall off my bmx a lot as well, never hit my head.

Hit my head pretty hard coming off my mtb and road bike though, reckon helmet saved me there.

But if you don't want to wear it, I don't care. But I think you should wear it if you plan on riding with other people.

Intoxication through alcohol actually impairs your ability to calculate risk so that's a pretty poor analogy.

I meant those three things were unrelated. People used to not wear seatbelts and also leave kids unprotected without alcohol.

People used to not wear seatbelts and also leave kids unprotected without alcohol.

😯

always, always make sure kids wear condoms around alcohol!

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[url= http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm ][b]2retro4u[/b][/url]
Marin County, Cali

If its good enough for charlie kelly.......

You wouldn't ride that POS bike now just because I did then. I wear a helmet now.

repack rider - the recent TV bit with the guy who was building his dream bike you didn't wear helmets?

[TJ, I agree with much of what you have to say about helmets, and having made an informed decision about the various risks and benefits as well as my lack of ability usually elect to put a lump of polystyrene on my bonce before I head out, but I don't judge anyone who choses not to.

A point you've not made here (as far as I can see) but have in the past is that safety equipment can make you feel safer encouraging to you to take higher risks. I know lots of people who would argue that with you - but this is a well known phenomenon in a number of areas. At its simplest level I can usually prove the principle by asking if you would cycle down the steps at the end of my street wearing a helmet (about a dozen concrete steps - fairly wide and reasonably steep) most people here would do them with minimal thought. Now take your helmet off and do the same... most people at least hesitate before saying they would do it. Proving to me the helmet made them feel safer (if you fall off you might get a head injury - but limb damage is probably more likely).

So, here's my gripe:

TandemJeremy - Member

Kids. Hmmmmmmmmmm Several points

Are they capable of making a rational assessment ( gillick competence)
Young kids skulls are softer, some kids skills are crap, some take lots of risks.

I think its recognised morally and legally that adults can and must make decisions for kids in some circumstances.

Just make sure that their helmets fit and are done up properly.

As an aside - how many of you helmet evangelists wear them properly - less than half even of serious mtbers IME Most have the straps loose

Bearing in mind the above principle - by putting helmets on kids are we encouraging children to ride more dangerously (or the average parent to pay less concern to their riding - because they have a helmet on)? We started off with the wear it all the time stance for our kids because that is what society seemed to expect, however this year we've taken the view, in common with many of the immediate neighbours, that when in a very localised (almost traffic free) area where our kids ride by themselves the risks are minimal, the kids put their helmets on themselves which means they are probably not tight enough, and then take them off / drop / damage too - which all leads to a false sense of security. In reality half the time they are travelling at less than running speed.

Whilst I am convinced I am making the right decision I feel "peer pressure" from "society" that we are exposing our kids to unreasonable risk. Bearing in mind that almost everyone on here over the age of thirty wouldn't have owned a cycle helmet before they were 12 the risks are not as high as may be implied. Yes there is a tiny risk of a serious head injury, but there's also a risk they'll grow up having no idea what fun is or so risk averse that they post threads on STW in 15 years time declaring everyone else stupid for not religiously doing as "society" expects...

--

The "building site" question is not as irrelevant as it first sounds. Its not uncommon for "hard hat zones" to be declared in areas where the risk of falling objects is minimal (or almost impossible). Whilst one school of thought says - just make them wear them all the time then they don't need to think about it - there is an alternative viewpoints which says encourage people to think about what they are doing and perhaps you'll reduce the risk of falling objects rather than depending on PPE.

Oh God, please let this end..........

Poly - All I said was in some situations parents can and should make decisions for children and IF you are going to insist on helmets make sure they are fitted and fastened properly.

People do have little idea of rational risk assessment tho

Wow, didn't realise there was such an anti-helmet brigade here!

I used to not wear my helmet years ago when doing trials stuff around town, probably down to vanity, which is probably the real reason for most anti-helmet arguments at the end of the day. Once spent 3 days being sick from concussion when I stopped, tried to put foot out, something got caught on drivetrain, fell over and head slapped into the ground. Wasn't even moving.

Another time I was going up a fairly routine climb in the granny ring and couldn't get foot out of toeclips (yes that long ago) when I lost traction, fell sideways, down a 10ft rockface the path edged onto and landed with helmet stuck between the rockface and a tree stump. Without my helmet I would have at least lost a lot of my scalp and I'm pretty sure would have shattered my skull on the rock at the bottom.

More recently I was in an accident with a 4x4 on the way to work and without the helmet I probably wouldnt be here, or at the very least would not have much scalp and would have had terrible bruising/cuts and concussion.

Just not worth not wearing one for me.

sorry but those in crashes who say "I'd be dead without the helmet" rarely have the knowledge etc to state that with any authority-and are of course less than objective.

I can say with authority I'd be dead sweaty and uncomfortable with one. 😉

and not quite so cool!

ah.. I see what you did there 8)

It's a free country.
Does it affect you, no.
So what's the problem.
😉

uh, unintended...

TandemJeremy - Member

Poly - All I said was in some situations parents can and should make decisions for children and IF you are going to insist on helmets make sure they are fitted and fastened properly.

bigjim - Member

Wow, didn't realise there was such an anti-helmet brigade here!